2023 OLED TVs - New panel technologies!

please help me understand this right. These are the measures taken by Vincent for a wrgb 22 vs qd oled 23.
  • the difference is scary in terms how the overall brightness is generated per red blue green (and white for wrgb)
  • blue remains super weak even for qd oled. If they can boost it next year via blue pholed to the level of just red (300 nits), that will push the panel brightness big time…
  • If they can push the blue and red/green to the level of the green (900 nits +), even crazier brightness expected (before mla)

Very exciting stuff and demonstrates to me why the focus is
8617C866-8135-4257-9954-18CEA598881E.png
23AF6647-B10D-4CAD-A766-93BC4EB09F01.png
on improving blue. Correct me if I got it wrong pls or missed anything.
 
The laptops are using eye tracking to create the 3D effect, good luck tracking eyes at TV viewing distances 😬
 
please help me understand this right. These are the measures taken by Vincent for a wrgb 22 vs qd oled 23.
  • the difference is scary in terms how the overall brightness is generated per red blue green (and white for wrgb)
  • blue remains super weak even for qd oled. If they can boost it next year via blue pholed to the level of just red (300 nits), that will push the panel brightness big time…
  • If they can push the blue and red/green to the level of the green (900 nits +), even crazier brightness expected (before mla)

Very exciting stuff and demonstrates to me why the focus is View attachment 1805798View attachment 1805799on improving blue. Correct me if I got it wrong pls or missed anything.
Couple of points to note

One thing I learned when i first tried calibrating a TV with a meter is that white does not use equal amounts of each colour as measured in nits. I had assumed that 300 nits of white would be made up of 100 nits each for red, green and blue. However, as you can see in the QD OLED and RGBW OLED examples above to get white you need much more red luminosity than blue and much more green than red. (The exact ratios required depend upon the exact frequency of red green and blue used and what white point you are aiming for e.g. D65.) Boosting blue from 60 nits to 300 would only improve overall brightness if you also increased the brightness of red and green by a factor of five. Otherwise the picture would simply be very blue.

Secondly, for the QD OLED all the light energy for all colours is generated from the inderlying blue OLEDs. This blue light passes through the blue subpixels without being changed. The red sub pixels and green sub-pixels contain quantum dots which absorb the blue light and reemit it at either the frequency of red or green light. Quantum dots can only convert light from one frequency to a lower frequency. Blue has a higher frequency than red and green so a QD OLED must be driven by blue OLEDs.

So that green light energy of 943 nits shown above is actually created by a blue OLED. (Even though blue OLED compounds are the least efficient and have the shortest lifespan.)
 
Couple of points to note

One thing I learned when i first tried calibrating a TV with a meter is that white does not use equal amounts of each colour as measured in nits. I had assumed that 300 nits of white would be made up of 100 nits each for red, green and blue. However, as you can see in the QD OLED and RGBW OLED examples above to get white you need much more red luminosity than blue and much more green than red. (The exact ratios required depend upon the exact frequency of red green and blue used and what white point you are aiming for e.g. D65.) Boosting blue from 60 nits to 300 would only improve overall brightness if you also increased the brightness of red and green by a factor of five. Otherwise the picture would simply be very blue.

Secondly, for the QD OLED all the light energy for all colours is generated from the inderlying blue OLEDs. This blue light passes through the blue subpixels without being changed. The red sub pixels and green sub-pixels contain quantum dots which absorb the blue light and reemit it at either the frequency of red or green light. Quantum dots can only convert light from one frequency to a lower frequency. Blue has a higher frequency than red and green so a QD OLED must be driven by blue OLEDs.

So that green light energy of 943 nits shown above is actually created by a blue OLED. (Even though blue OLED compounds are the least efficient and have the shortest lifespan.)
Super interesting thank you
from what I read, red and green are pholed while blue is phosphorescent aka less efficient.
Am I right in assuming that the incoming blue pholed can change things drastically. for the better (brightness, efficiency,..).
Considering everything is driven by blue as per your comment, it seems to make sense. Unless they also have to improve red and green too?
I was wondering why only blue until you clarified.
Thanks again for taking the time to explain, appreciated
 
and you're right that LG seems to be keeping the MLA panel to themselves for the large screen, unless they feel generous to give it to Sony, which I doubt. I think Sony will just bring out a QD-OLED version as their top tier model and then a basic model with normal OLED panel like C3.


It wouldn't make sense for LG Display refusing to sell Panasonic MLA at 77" and only sell to LG Electronics. LG Display and LG Electronics operate separately(different CEOs...etc). LG Display's goal is to sell panels and now that Samsung is in the game and has grabbed Sony's money I would think they would need all the business they can get. Heck Panasonic is in Vegas now and doesn't even have a consumer market in the country they are showing off these new products in(along with Canada and Australia) so being afraid of Panasonic having a 77" MLA wouldn't make sense..


There was a report that uniformity issues would push the rollout of MLA into 2024 and that LG Display corrected that. I mean heck for all I know given Panasonic's history of needing a lot of lead time for product development like the mediatek soc not being used this year.....maybe the 77" MLA wasn't approved in time by Panasonic to use for 2023. They apparently have certain cutoff for development and possible they are no where near as flexible as bigger brands.
 
You are right but I will not go as far as saying Oled tv will have it…not yet anyway
Well there are no noises from any television manufacturer once again adopting 3d. I think it rather depends upon what content there is.
So I very much doubt it will happen...
 
Well there are no noises from any television manufacturer once again adopting 3d. I think it rather depends upon what content there is.
So I very much doubt it will happen...
I was just curious by the post and checked. It is cool I guess but don’t care about 3D.
If I want immersion, I consider getting a gaming headset…:)
 
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The laptops are using eye tracking to create the 3D effect, good luck tracking eyes at TV viewing distances 😬

Good Point. Caused me to research depth perception.
The brain and eyesight is just amazing.
 
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Internal DTS decoding, that was certainly missed in their press release as it was understood to be passthrough …

 
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Super interesting thank you
from what I read, red and green are pholed while blue is phosphorescent aka less efficient.
Am I right in assuming that the incoming blue pholed can change things drastically. for the better (brightness, efficiency,..).
Considering everything is driven by blue as per your comment, it seems to make sense. Unless they also have to improve red and green too?
I was wondering why only blue until you clarified.
Thanks again for taking the time to explain, appreciated
PHOLED is short for phosphorescent OLED - which was the first generation for all OLED emitter colours. Red and green have moved on to fluorescent and the aim is to develop a good quality fluorescent blue as well. There have been fluorescent blue OLED emitters already but only now do there seem to be blue OLED emitters with high enough levels of efficiency and lifespan to make them viable for use in a TV.

I have no idea why it is so hard to make an efficient and long life blue colour OLED. It could be something to do with blue light having a higher frequency than red or green and higher frequencies have more energy.
 
PHOLED is short for phosphorescent OLED - which was the first generation for all OLED emitter colours. Red and green have moved on to fluorescent and the aim is to develop a good quality fluorescent blue as well. There have been fluorescent blue OLED emitters already but only now do there seem to be blue OLED emitters with high enough levels of efficiency and lifespan to make them viable for use in a TV.

I have no idea why it is so hard to make an efficient and long life blue colour OLED. It could be something to do with blue light having a higher frequency than red or green and higher frequencies have more energy.
I am afraid you got it the wrong way. Based on this article…the move is from fluorescent to pholed (phosphorescent). The efficient one is pholed and not fluorescent. Hope I got it right.


Extract:
OLED emission can be divided into two types; fluorescence and phosphorescence. Red and green OLEDs in displays have already transitioned to phosphorescence (PHOLED) which has up to 100% internal luminous efficiency. Blue OLED is still a fluorescent which has around 25% internal efficiency.
 
I am afraid you got it the wrong way. Based on this article…the move is from fluorescent to pholed (phosphorescent). The efficient one is pholed and not fluorescent. Hope I got it right.


Extract:
OLED emission can be divided into two types; fluorescence and phosphorescence. Red and green OLEDs in displays have already transitioned to phosphorescence (PHOLED) which has up to 100% internal luminous efficiency. Blue OLED is still a fluorescent which has around 25% internal efficiency.
I think that the confusion comes about because compared to phosphorescence, fluorescence is both the past and the future. See the table below.

The first generation of OLED emitters were fluorescence based.

These were followed by Phosphorescence emitters (Gen 2). Then came TADF (Gen 3) - which is actually Thermally Activated Delayed Fluorescence i.e. back to fluorescence again.

And finally there are Gen 4 emitters, which are another type of fluorescence, in this case "Hyperfluorescence".

Please don't ask me what any of these terms actually mean or how they work. :)

For some reason it has been easier to develop later generations of red and green OLED emitters than it has been for blue. Although there are companies that claim to have viable Gen 3 TADF emitters for blue (e.g. Cynora) but it isn't clear to me if these are at the stage where they can be used in TVs yet.

634751_a24676abe6754cab8265b2eb374f1a5e~mv2.png
 
Something about potential Pentonic release/availability, translated from another forum (not verified info).

Hello,

I had an appointment with Derek and Marcel from Portrait Display in the closed area of Mediatek and I was told that currently the 700 chip is probably already in production, but the 1000 will probably only go into mass production from the 2nd half of 2023. That would explain why Sony only announces its models a bit later (i.e. later than CES, an event is supposed to take place at the end of February/beginning of March). Maybe the first models with Pentonic 1000 will be presented then, but maybe "only" the 700 is integrated. At Philips, I would also assume that the entry-level models and mid-range LCDs will first use the 700, and that the 1000 will then be introduced with the fall devices?

By the way, very cool solution with the integrated Calman Ready. So you can display a calibrated and uncalibrated video side by side, e.g. to show how the picture quality has improved at the end of the calibration. Also the control of up to 8 video pipelines is interesting. One could display four video sources on the screen, each with different values (1080p, SDR, rec709, the next 720p, HDR10, rec.2020, another 4K, Dolby Vision, rec.2020, etc.). That makes future Picture-in-Picture modes far more interesting and usable.

At least that's my level of knowledge. The first year of Pentonic rollout may still be a bit confusing.
 
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Are the 700 chips capable of 4x hdmi 2.1 🤔
Update 23/01/23 - Apparently Pentonic 1000 (and 700 by extension) are likely only 2x HDMI 2.1

I thought it was a foregone conclusion they would, but none of the Pentonic 700 stories I've read have said outright that it has 4x HDMI 2.1 ports. You'd have thought it would with still being classed as a premium 4K SoC, but might need to wait for confirmation.

Was curious to see what the differences were myself, so I've tried to list them below, should be otherwise identical specs for codec/HDR support, TV tuners etc.

A73 Quad-Core CPU (1.4GHz)A73 Quad-Core CPU (2.0GHz)A76 Quad-Core CPU (1.8GHz)
Mali G52 MC1 GPUMali G57 MC2 GPU (800MHz)Mali G57 MC3 GPU (1GHz)
64-Bit DDR4@3200Mbps64-Bit LPDDR4/4X@4266Mbps96-Bit LPDDR4/4266Mbps
4K@120 (144 VRR)4K@120 (144 VRR)4K@120 (144 VRR), 8K@120
Dolby AtmosDolby Atmos (2.6)Dolby Atmos (2.6)
AI-Super Resolution 2.0

AI-PQ Scene Recognition 2.0
AI-PQ Object Recognition 2.5
AI-Super Resolution 2.0
(with detail reconstruction)

AI-PQ Scene Recognition 2.0
AI-PQ Objection Recognition 3.0
AI-Super Resolution 2.0
(with detail creation)
AI-PQ Scene Recognition 2.0
AI-PQ Object Recognition 3.0
ATSC SupportATSC Support
Internal I/O:
USB 3.2 Gen1 (5Gbps)
eMMC 5.1
Internal I/O:
USB 3.2 Gen1 (5Gbps)
eMMC 5.1
Internal I/O:
USB 3.2 Gen1 (5Gbps)
UFS 2.1
PCI-Express Gen3 (2x)
External I/O:
HDMI 2.1*
USB 3.2 Gen1 (5Gbps) x2
USB 2.0
External I/O:
HDMI 2.1*
USB 3.2 Gen1 (5Gbps) x2
USB 2.0
External I/O:
HDMI 2.1 (x4)
USB 3.2 Gen1 (5Gbps) x2
USB 2.0
 
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The 1000 seems to be more features packed but strangely is not wifi7 ready…not that it will keep anyone awake…
 
I have faith in the MediaTek chip but not in certain tv manufactures (not gonna name names :p) ... some of them are notorious for being stuborn to adapt, actually listen to their own customer's needs and wants, or delay / leave out certain parts outright or make an half-assed work out of it to save money or cut cost. But we'll see, i guess :)
 
I have faith in the MediaTek chip but not in certain tv manufactures (not gonna name names :p) ... some of them are notorious for being stuborn to adapt, actually listen to their own customer's needs and wants, or delay / leave out certain parts outright or make an half-assed work out of it to save money or cut cost. But we'll see, i guess :)
Let’s hope we get the new SoC in all TVs. I am happy to wait for it a bit…
It is super I important to have a forward looking architecture and platform. Most people under-estimate that by looking just at the short term. Things moved on fast lately and many new features emergeD TVs have to catch up…and have the capability to get update…
 
Let’s hope we get the new SoC in all TVs. I am happy to wait for it a bit…
It is super I important to have a forward looking architecture and platform. Most people under-estimate that by looking just at the short term. Things moved on fast lately and many new features emergeD TVs have to catch up…and have the capability to get update…
Like you, i also have no problem with being patient or having to wait ... still on a (almost 13 years old) Panasonic plasma with the (by now) accommodating burn-in galore :p

I remember like 4 years ago, when the LG C9 and the E9 came out, with their 4x hdmi 2.1's ... didnt have the money saved to actually buy one at the time, plus i always liked and prefered the Panasonic PQ, so i figured i'd wait ... almost 4 years have past by, with a bigger wallet and still no 4 hdmi 2.1 ports together with the unsolved gradiation issues due to the old Mediatek chip. Let alone the whole Dolby Vision gaming without 120fps, or the VRR flicker, etc. Also no anticipated QD panel, we are going the MLA route, it seems.

Panasonic is like the pretty girl that plays hard to get ... your mind says maybe its time to move on and chase other girls, but your heart knows, at the end of the day, Panasonic is the prettiest of them all ... so you wait for 4 years (and counting) feeling like a fool ... any day now. Should have just bought a C1 or something and call it a day :p
 
Like you, i also have no problem with being patient or having to wait ... still on a (almost 13 years old) Panasonic plasma with the (by now) accommodating burn-in galore :p

I remember like 4 years ago, when the LG C9 and the E9 came out, with their 4x hdmi 2.1's ... didnt have the money saved to actually buy one at the time, plus i always liked and prefered the Panasonic PQ, so i figured i'd wait ... almost 4 years have past by, with a bigger wallet and still no 4 hdmi 2.1 ports together with the unsolved gradiation issues due to the old Mediatek chip. Let alone the whole Dolby Vision gaming without 120fps, or the VRR flicker, etc. Also no anticipated QD panel, we are going the MLA route, it seems.

Panasonic is like the pretty girl that plays hard to get ... your mind says maybe its time to move on and chase other girls, but your heart knows, at the end of the day, Panasonic is the prettiest of them all ... so you wait for 4 years (and counting) feeling like a fool ... any day now. Should have just bought a C1 or something and call it a day :p
Some girls are worth the wait…
If all aligns, next batch is pretty special (SoC, 3rd generation Panel, hdmi 2.1,..)
If not, there are some good alternatives
 
Lost me with the girl analogy...
 
Some girls are worth the wait…
If all aligns, next batch is pretty special (SoC, 3rd generation Panel, hdmi 2.1,..)
If not, there are some good alternatives
Maybe this year, waiting all that time, will finally pay off: Sony and Philips will be the first TV makers to use MediaTek Pentonic chips

Both Sony and Philips kept quiet at this years CES ... cant be a coincidence 🤔

For some reason, the MediaTek website has the 4x 2.1 hdmi only listed under the 2000 chip but lets hope flatpanelshd is correct about the 1000 chip.

We'll finally get 120Hz / 144Hz VRR, DV gaming at 120, 4x 2.1 hdmi, i'm guessing finally a game optimizer, DV gaming mode, also Amtos and DTX, perhaps they ll amp up the Acoustic Surface Audio+ even more.

Its a shame Pana went the MLA route instead of QD, although MLA looks promising. I dont know, so far the 2nd QD panels and their brightness look a bit more impressive:

If not, the S95C is also a good option ... like the updated design, looks clean with the one connect box, and the 70 watts with 4.2.2 atmos.

The 2023 Sony is going (again) to be pricey though, with its heatsink and all and Sony tax. I'm curious how Samsung will price the S95C 🤔
 
Don’t know if there is a thread for it (it should)
Maybe this year, waiting all that time, will finally pay off: Sony and Philips will be the first TV makers to use MediaTek Pentonic chips

Both Sony and Philips kept quiet at this years CES ... cant be a coincidence 🤔

For some reason, the MediaTek website has the 4x 2.1 hdmi only listed under the 2000 chip but lets hope flatpanelshd is correct about the 1000 chip.

We'll finally get 120Hz / 144Hz VRR, DV gaming at 120, 4x 2.1 hdmi, i'm guessing finally a game optimizer, DV gaming mode, also Amtos and DTX, perhaps they ll amp up the Acoustic Surface Audio+ even more.

Its a shame Pana went the MLA route instead of QD, although MLA looks promising. I dont know, so far the 2nd QD panels and their brightness look a bit more impressive:

If not, the S95C is also a good option ... like the updated design, looks clean with the one connect box, and the 70 watts with 4.2.2 atmos.

The 2023 Sony is going (again) to be pricey though, with its heatsink and all and Sony tax. I'm curious how Samsung will price the S95C 🤔

after being disappointed initially, I believe this is now a blessing in disguise for me..

2023 TVs are going to be good and 1000 chip seems perfect. Let’s hope they all use that one.

2024 is the optimum year and hope pana gets that new chip and 3rd generation qd oled panel. I expect another major leap with new blue Pholed and why no mla for qd oled.
If not, 2023 TVs will be super cheap early 2024…can’t loose really 💪🏽💪🏽
 

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