2019 Coronavirus (SARS-CoV-2) hits the UK

inkinoo

Distinguished Member
You're not comparing apples with apples though. You have the MMR that's actually been used for years, which I didn't think twice about when my kids were offered. Against one that hasn't been used for long and research, such as my link, is still ongoing. I just don't get the rush, when the balance of risk is so finely balanced.
What are your thoughts on adult usage?
 

rustybin

Distinguished Member
You're not comparing apples with apples though. You have the MMR that's actually been used for years, which I didn't think twice about when my kids were offered. Against one that hasn't been used for long and research, such as my link, is still ongoing. I just don't get the rush, when the balance of risk is so finely balanced.

Is there any example of a modern vaccine (or any vaccine) which appeared to have no side effects for over 12 months but then magically started having severe side effects years down the line?
 

inkinoo

Distinguished Member
I've a feeling you want to move our conversation away from childhood vaccination, but for adults I think you should have it if you want it and I think the balance of risk is totally different.
Yes, damn me for wanting to ask questions. Does that mean you’ve had the vaccine?
 

CoolSharpHarp

Active Member
Is there any example of a modern vaccine (or any vaccine) which appeared to have no side effects for over 12 months but then magically started having severe side effects years down the line?
It's not a question of magically appearing after 12 months. They might be there before 12 months, but you need longer term research to show if there is a correlation. For example the link I provide about the vaccines and menstruation. These have shown within 12 months, but time is needed to show if there is any link.

We had similar with the swine flu jab and narcolepsy.
 

rustybin

Distinguished Member
It's not a question of magically appearing after 12 months. They might be there before 12 months, but you need longer term research to show if there is a correlation. For example the link I provide about the vaccines and menstruation. These have shown within 12 months, but time is needed to show if there is any link.

We had similar with the swine flu jab and narcolepsy.
How long? What if we wait 5 years, and then there are side-effects which only kick in in year 6? Or 12? Or 20?
 

CoolSharpHarp

Active Member
How long? What if we wait 5 years, and then there are side-effects which only kick in in year 6? Or 12? Or 20?
As I said in my last post it's not a matter of them magically appearing at a later date, it's looking at the data that is being generated just now. Obviously for the vulnerable there is no time to waste, but for children, why the rush.
 

Morden

Well-known Member
You're not comparing apples with apples though. You have the MMR that's actually been used for years, which I didn't think twice about when my kids were offered. Against one that hasn't been used for long and research, such as my link, is still ongoing. I just don't get the rush, when the balance of risk is so finely balanced.

With mmr there were scare stories at the time, which is what kick started the anti vax movement, these were started by Dr Andrew wakeford, who was struck off for misconduct.

The discredited doctor hailed by the anti-vaccine movement

For yourself the choice is yours, but the choice should be your childrens, what ever decision they make, whether for or against having a vaccine.

If children are vaccinated it will protect teachers and prevent schools being affected again. In Scotland there has been a surge in cases due to schools being back.

If not then cases will rise.

If vaccinations are not done, then likely result will be more restrictions including lockdowns.
Cause and effect as always with how bungling boris has handled the covid crisis.

And until rest of the world is vaccinated, we will not get to the end of the covid emergency.
 

rustybin

Distinguished Member
As I said in my last post it's not a matter of them magically appearing at a later date, it's looking at the data that is being generated just now. Obviously for the vulnerable there is no time to waste, but for children, why the rush.
To prevent another lockdown. To help lessen the spread.

The data now says that there's a marginal gain to vaccinating 12-15 year olds. If you don't trust their opinion now, why would you trust it later?
 

CoolSharpHarp

Active Member
With mmr there were scare stories at the time, which is what kick started the anti vax movement, these were started by Dr Andrew wakeford, who was struck off for misconduct.

The discredited doctor hailed by the anti-vaccine movement

For yourself the choice is yours, but the choice should be your childrens, what ever decision they make, whether for or against having a vaccine.

If children are vaccinated it will protect teachers and prevent schools being affected again. In Scotland there has been a surge in cases due to schools being back.

If not then cases will rise.

If vaccinations are not done, then likely result will be more restrictions including lockdowns.
Cause and effect as always with how bungling boris has handled the covid crisis.

And until rest of the world is vaccinated, we will not get to the end of the covid emergency.
Personally I don't think it should be the kids or adults choice, I don't think it should have been rolled out.

When talking about children, the pro's and cons should purely be based on whether it's right for the child and not wider concerns, such as protecting teachers, who will most likely have been vaccinated.
 

CoolSharpHarp

Active Member
To prevent another lockdown. To help lessen the spread.

The data now says that there's a marginal gain to vaccinating 12-15 year olds. If you don't trust their opinion now, why would you trust it later?
There's marginal gain, but considerable uncertainty...

"Overall, the committee is of the opinion that the benefits from vaccination are marginally greater than the potential known harms (tables 1 to 4) but acknowledges that there is considerable uncertainty regarding the magnitude of the potential harms. The margin of benefit, based primarily on a health perspective, is considered too small to support advice on a universal programme of vaccination of otherwise healthy 12 to 15-year-old children at this time. As longer-term data on potential adverse reactions accrue, greater certainty may allow for a reconsideration of the benefits and harms. Such data may not be available for several months."

Again why the rush...
 

Emyj74

Active Member
With mmr there were scare stories at the time, which is what kick started the anti vax movement, these were started by Dr Andrew wakeford, who was struck off for misconduct.

The discredited doctor hailed by the anti-vaccine movement

For yourself the choice is yours, but the choice should be your childrens, what ever decision they make, whether for or against having a vaccine.

If children are vaccinated it will protect teachers and prevent schools being affected again. In Scotland there has been a surge in cases due to schools being back.

If not then cases will rise.

If vaccinations are not done, then likely result will be more restrictions including lockdowns.
Cause and effect as always with how bungling boris has handled the covid crisis.

And until rest of the world is vaccinated, we will not get to the end of the covid emergency.
Rises in Scotland were mainly down to young adults rather than school age children.

The rises in Scotland began before schools went back.

Transmission in schools generally reflect what is happening in the community and therefore it's more important to get the estimated 6m unvaccinated adults vaccinated.

If transmission is low in the community it will be low in schools
 

JimmyMac

Distinguished Member
wasn't it shown that the link between narcolepsy and Pandemrix was not able to be proven, incidence reporting only showing in a smaller sample size in Sweden and larger scale studies showing no correlation?

Understanding the pharcology of vaccines and how they work goes some way to showing just why they are so safe once initial phase 3 trials have proven so. The half life of them is so short its out of the system and no longer doing anything after a few days, its job has been done, short term side effects will show up and then it clears
 

inkinoo

Distinguished Member
Yes, damn me for wanting to ask questions. Does that mean you’ve had the vaccine?
D29FE045-3978-4D66-82E1-0EEA0062A27F.gif
 

CoolSharpHarp

Active Member
wasn't it shown that the link between narcolepsy and Pandemrix was not able to be proven, incidence reporting only showing in a smaller sample size in Sweden and larger scale studies showing no correlation?

Understanding the pharcology of vaccines and how they work goes some way to showing just why they are so safe once initial phase 3 trials have proven so. The half life of them is so short its out of the system and no longer doing anything after a few days, its job has been done, short term side effects will show up and then it clears
My point was sometimes it takes time to show whether there is a link or not.

That case in point was strange though, because there was research that showed there was no link, but compensatory payments have been made.

 

JimmyMac

Distinguished Member
My point was sometimes it takes time to show whether there is a link or not.

That case in point was strange though, because there was research that showed there was no link, but compensatory payments have been made.


My point is though that pharcologically thats not always true, the pharmacokinetics of vaccines will present quickly, not over years.

As for compensation, happens all the time, but the research is key, not the decisions in court
 

JimmyMac

Distinguished Member
I've not answered for two reasons, it's not relevant to the discussion on childhood vaccinations and secondly, I don't normally volunteer my health information on a public forum. I have however given my opinion on vaccinating adults.

yes, you have stated you don't think it should have been rolled out, but what is your knowledge of vaccines and their mode of action that brings you to that point?

The internet is full of "experts" but most seem to completely fail to address the point of how the vaccine does it's job and what that means. Vaccines are safe, they have been proven safe many times over, this one has not been rushed at all, again thats a misconception due to not understanding how clinical trials are conducted. In the Astra vaccine case it fails to acknowledge that Chadox1 has been around for many years, not just during this pandemic
 

CoolSharpHarp

Active Member
My point is though that pharcologically thats not always true, the pharmacokinetics of vaccines will present quickly, not over years.

As for compensation, happens all the time, but the research is key, not the decisions in court
BIB which goes along with what I said earlier, it not about waiting for them to magically appear.
 

JimmyMac

Distinguished Member
BIB which goes along with what I said earlier, it not about waiting for them to magically appear.
sorry, how does it go along with what you said earlier? You have been saying that we need to wait for long term effects if their are any. The point I make is the pharmacokinetics of the vaccines mean that any effects will have been found already
 

Morden

Well-known Member
Rises in Scotland were mainly down to young adults rather than school age children.

The rises in Scotland began before schools went back.

Transmission in schools generally reflect what is happening in the community and therefore it's more important to get the estimated 6m unvaccinated adults vaccinated.

If transmission is low in the community it will be low in schools
No Scotland surge was 12 to 19 year olds.

The case started spiking higher after schools went back.

I have a relative who is a school teacher in Scotland, so im fully aware of situation in Scotland along with living here and being aware of local information.



More than 32,000 pupils have been absent from school this week due to Covid-19.
The most up-to-date figures - for Tuesday - show that 6,471 pupils were not in school because they had the virus and 25,622 were self-isolating.
The number of pupils with Covid has gone up by almost 3,500 in a week, while those isolating have doubled from 12,636 the week before.

Covid in Scotland: More than 32,000 school pupils absent this week.

A large school in Scotland has been forced to close entirely due to a Covid outbreak.

Dingwall Academy in the Scottish Highlands sent pupils home at lunchtime on Wednesday amid a spike in Covid cases and staff shortages.

The academy is one of the region’s largest secondary schools, with more than 1,000 pupils enrolled.

Scottish school closes due to Covid outbreak and staff shortages

Surging Covid case rates are significantly increasing the infection risk for teachers and pushing schools towards the point at which lack of class cover results in even more children being sent home, union leaders have warned.

It comes after virus-related pupil absences rose by more than a quarter in the early part of this week, with figures showing 38,361 were not in classrooms on Tuesday.

Covid in Scotland: Teacher shortage fears as pupil cases and absences surge
 

CoolSharpHarp

Active Member
sorry, how does it go along with what you said earlier? You have been saying that we need to wait for long term effects if their are any. The point I make is the pharmacokinetics of the vaccines mean that any effects will have been found already
No I said they can appear now, but it takes time to see if there is a link, such as the link I provided to vaccines and menstruation. Or my posts #43,655 or #43,657
 

Emyj74

Active Member
No Scotland surge was 12 to 19 year olds.

The case started spiking higher after schools went back.

I have a relative who is a school teacher in Scotland, so im fully aware of situation in Scotland along with living here and being aware of local information.





Covid in Scotland: More than 32,000 school pupils absent this week.



Scottish school closes due to Covid outbreak and staff shortages



Covid in Scotland: Teacher shortage fears as pupil cases and absences surge

No Scotland surge was 12 to 19 year olds.

The case started spiking higher after schools went back.

I have a relative who is a school teacher in Scotland, so im fully aware of situation in Scotland along with living here and being aware of local information.





Covid in Scotland: More than 32,000 school pupils absent this week.



Scottish school closes due to Covid outbreak and staff shortages



Covid in Scotland: Teacher shortage fears as pupil cases and absences surge

The data is pretty clear.

The rise start in the 15-24 age group and prior to the return to school then started rising in the 0-14.

Cases fell back in the older age groups and then the younger age groups.

As said before children don't start school, catch, spread and test positive within 24 hours of returning to school which would needed to have happened.

Also if school children caused the rises within 24 hours of going back to school then what's happened in England where cases are falling over week after children went back
 

JimmyMac

Distinguished Member
No I said they can appear now, but it takes time to see if there is a link, such as the link I provided to vaccines and menstruation. Or my posts #43,655 or #43,657

ok, fair enough, the links thus far are showing a potential short term effect, not long term, short term. Heavy period(s) in time following vaccination, it will be investigated but it's not a reason to hold back on vaccination
 

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