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2 x 250mr same as the sinngle 250 mr,s?

Discussion in 'TAG McLaren Audio Owners' Forum' started by real batman, Jul 15, 2005.

  1. real batman

    real batman
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    as title refers chaps is the single unit the same as two mono,s ? any experience welcome

    cheers B
     
  2. real batman

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    would getting a second set of 125 mono,s have the same effect as a pair of 250 monos.. and what would the best way to configure this ? cheers chaps :thumbsup:
     
  3. alexs2

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    Threads merged as they cover exactly the same question.....If you were to use the second set of 125M's in a biamping configuration then you may achieve the same result or possibly better than a single set of 250Ms.

    Better isolation,possibly better headroom under certain conditions,but best tried prior to buying!
     
  4. real batman

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    thanx alex , but there was a seperate question regarding wether the 250 mr,s are the same as the single box 250 power amps cheers B
     
  5. Miron

    Miron
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    yes, they are the same whatever someone else might tell you.
     
  6. Dr Udo Zucker

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    Hi, I am assuming that you like to compare the 250x3R:2 [2 amplifier modules fitted to the three channel amplifier 250x3R] with the single channel {monobloc} power amplifier 250MR.

    If my understanding is correct, then this is the answer you are after:

    The 250x3R:2 consists of a control board (CB) and two 250W amplifier modules (AM). The 250MR, in contrast uses the same CB and just on amplifier module AM. Therefore they are very similar in their construction, leading to the assumption that they must be very similar. Whilst this is the case, don't be misguided. Two 250MR are still the better choice than the 250x3R:2 because of these reasons:

    1) Two 250MRs can be placed closer to the loudspeakers, they will drive, hence one can significantly reduce the length of the loudspeaker cables. Speaker cables should be as short as possible, whereas signal cables (here you can even use a balanced construction) can be pretty long without degrading the signal quality.

    2) Two 250MRs can be placed further apart, hence completely eliminating the electro-magnetic interaction of the AMs' power transformers' stray field. Whilst all design effort was taken [like aluminium chassis) to reduce this interaction within the 250x3R, it still exists to a small percentage.

    3) Two 250MRs do not share the same AC power cable, therefore, if attached to a well designed mains ring, there AC interaction is basically non-existent.

    These are three small, but significant improvements of the 250MR, making them the better choice for those who want to squeeze out the very best.

    Having said this all, if one would place two 250MR beside it other, run long speaker cables to the loudspeakers and, to top it up, connect them to the same AC outlet, then all these extra benefits/cost would be wasted :)
     
  7. real batman

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    thanks for that , it answered my questions about the 250mr. now what about bi-amping a second pair of 125m,s to my exsisting pair and dpa 32r, do you think this would be a beneficial upgrade ? many thanks B
     
  8. Dr Udo Zucker

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    Hi, the 125M, whilst being a good power amplifier, isn't of the same audio quality than the 250MR [ignoring completly the 250MR's higher power rating].

    It's also not possible to assume that two 125M in bi-amping mode are equal to a single 250MR when it comes to usuable power rating. Very rarely will both "circuits" of a biamp configuration have the same power consumption. Usually the tweeters/midrange will require less power, although that isn't always the case. It depends on the efficiency of drive unit and more so the cross over design [e.g. the full range Appogee Diva's tweeter required the highest power, which was due to its very, very low impedance].

    Assuming [for the sake of argument] that 2 x 125M would be equal to one 250MR in terms of performance [which they surely aren't], then the audio benefit of bi-amping compared to a single drive configuration will depend on the actual loudspeaker. It was "old" TAG McLaren Audio's finding that a "properly" designed speaker with single connection will outperform the same design in bi-amp mode. [Other companies, btw came to similar findings, while cable manufacturer will say something different]. It was assumed that this was down to the quality degradation caused by a additional set of connections and, maybe more importantly, phase differences between amplifiers. Whilst these might be small issues, they do reduce performance.


    Having said this, if a speaker is designed for bi-amp operation [meaning the potential benefit of a single connection operation wasn't achieved], then this would be the better speaker operation mode.

    Therefore it comes down to the question if the performance gain of bi-amping [if designed into the speaker!] is higher than the performance gain of a 250MR over 125M. My personal experience would still suggest the 250MR is the better option, but then I haven't tried all speakers. No doubt two 250MR would then be the better option :D

    As an important additional point, I like to point out that the 250MR offers the ability to be automatically powered up/down using the TAGtronic Bus. I think -if my memory serves me well - that even the DPA32R offers this control. That way you could add convenience without high standby current. In contrast the 125M should be switched off, when not in use, as it will otherwise add unnecessarily to your electricity bill.

    Hope this helps...
     
  9. Kenny Glasgow

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    Udo

    Great to see you are still popping in :thumbsup:
     
  10. real batman

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    thanks for all that info ... unfortunately it looks like i will have to dig deep into my pockets and try and find a couple of 250MR or the previously mention 250x3mr... all these amps are quite hard to find though second hand.... :thumbsdow cheers B :thumbsup:
     
  11. alexs2

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    Nice to see you again Udo.....and as always,many thanks for your help.
     
  12. Plump

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    As much as I agree with the fact that 1) can have sense , I think 2) and 3) are pure theory and are going too deep into non-audible "audiophile" sphere.

    However it is always nice to get explanations from Udo who does not post so frequently any more, but I am sure he reads it on regular basis.
     
  13. Dr Udo Zucker

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    Hi, all 3 items are represent measurable facts, so there is no real need for belief or otherwise ;) . However, what one could be argued, is the threshold people can hear a difference. In that respect I like to report that we found whilst designing the 100x5R and then the 250x3R that 1) is of high significance, 2) of significance whilst 3) is, in comparison, a minor issue (but heavily depending on the quality of the mains).



    Overall my experience tells me that many issues the audio community considers important, have more subjective than objective influence.



    BTW, my main reason for posting less regular, is the fact that consumer home cinema technology seems somewhat stagnant at present, hence the very same subjects seem to be discussed over and over again. What seems a little missed (in my opinion, although it might not be suitable for this forum {I don't know!}) are the more generalised, often enthusiastically discussed themes, which have {if my memory serves me right} spiced up the original TAG McLaren Audio forum.



    However, in order to prevent any misunderstanding at source, this is no criticism of this Forum at all, which I find really a great place to regularly visit and contribute. My sincere thanks go to the providers and knowledgeable moderators. :clap:
     
  14. Plump

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    I actually find this beautiful, now after my setup is completed I can waste my money on software instead of hardware :clap: .
    However HD will speed up the things for sure, sooner or later!
     
  15. Steve.EX

    Steve.EX
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    :smashin: Nail - Hammer - Head.

    I own the 250mr (mono) and the 125m and the former is, in my world, the better amplifier, but we are not talking absolute leaps and bounds.

    Steven
     
  16. alexs2

    alexs2
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    All very true,and not just for TAG amps...my Krells are setup in a very similar fashion,with long(ish) low level interconnects and very short speaker cables,and the point about AC interaction is very important I think with higher powered amps,especially those with very high current draws,where positioning 2 close together can cause real problems.
     
  17. Kenny Glasgow

    Kenny Glasgow
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    Yes I agree that HD will spice things up as will Sky's HD service but I'd imagine more for HD displays than audio.

    Anyway I've still to put my DP into action.... :eek:
     
  18. real batman

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    thanx for all your replies and advise . tell me steve would you say the benefits are worth the £1200 it would cost to get the 250 mr,s ... :suicide:
     
  19. Kenny Glasgow

    Kenny Glasgow
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    Batman

    At £1200 I would say "yes". I ahve the 250x3R and it's superb :thumbsup:
     
  20. real batman

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    hey kenny , thats £1200 plus the £800 i should get for my mono,s...
     
  21. Steve.EX

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    My own personal advice would be if you are using very high sensitivity speakers or only play at moderate volumes then the "differences" are (IMHO) subtle. Tonally they are very similar indeed. The larger amp holds up under more demanding circumstances.
    They are both very well designed and built and i firmly believe that the above can be said for most higher end power amps. At moderate or quietish levels with easily driven speakers power-amps of quality are not hugely differing.
    It is not until you present some stress or current demands that an amp shows it's colours IMHO. I am pretty sure i have read elsewhere that this is quite a common train of thought.

    Regards

    Steven.
     
  22. real batman

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    thanx steve , using spendor s9 and i have too say that i don,t think they are particularly hard to drive and never really seem forced . TBH the sound through my kit at the mo is pretty (to me anyway ) impressive and i think perhaps i wouldn,t see the benefits at that cost .... might be worth demoing but that just not practical with second hand kit is it ... thanx again
     
  23. Steve.EX

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    My apolgies, it was not my intention to put you off a purchase. I simply feel that the gains maybe/are predictable in adding a much larger engine to your speaker in terms of control etc over any massive differences in "sound quality" if that makes any sense.
    I love my 250mrs' (i have 3), other personal favourites are some of the Krells and the big Musical Fidelity amps (including the odd vintage model)

    Steven
     
  24. real batman

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    thanks for all your input mate , i think its good to be told the honest truth, there seem to be so many people saying the newer bigger kit is much better when in fact its probably just different. sometimes you just need to be reassurred that the kit youv,e got is still up to scratch :D . i have also been told a similar thing when i asked about swapping my cd20r for a cd20tl that it was a slight improvement but wether it warranted the extra wonga was negligable... it means we can spemd our money on the most important thing ... the music :smashin:
     
  25. alexs2

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    Thats absolutely right...I've quite often looked and tried newer amps to the ones I currently have,and apart from differences in sound balance,it's difficult to find something MUCH better at anything like a similar price range,and given the quality of what you already have,it's definitely beginning to enter the realms of diminishing returns.

    The single best "upgrade" I've made recently was not to another more expensive Class A amp,but to a set of very low powered triode power amps...lovely for music,but inappropriate for AV.

    I'd also agree with Steve's comments about some of the older power amps around currently,which are still well able to hold their own with many modern designs,even if there energy efficiency is much lower.
     
  26. GrahamMG

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    There is only so much that can be done with amp design and just about everything has already been tried that a manufacturer could actually make money at, I very much doubt anything earth shattering will come along for current A or B amp designs now......... Switch mode amps excluded for now......
    Personally I think you can measure a difference between a pair of 250MR's placed 6ft apart and a 250x3R but hear a difference in the vast majority of installs.......maybe not........ At £1200 for a 250x3R? I'd grab it with both hands.....
     
  27. Nic Rhodes

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    All future growth in amps is going to be 'digital' amps I think and I believe we will get some really good ones (at cheap prices) as opposed to really good analogue ones at more money. These are gooD amps at good money currently.

    Re low power triodes and AV, one of my earliest systems was just this, and it was lovely....

    300B PSE L and R, C was either PX25, PX4, 300b, 2a3 or 845s depending on mood / current project, surrounds were 5881 or EL84s. Still miss it, was wondering about trying a pile of Lowthers and triodes one day for AV......
     
  28. real batman

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    :eek: yeah unfortunately the 250mr x2 is £2,000 the £1,200 mentioned is the shortfall after selling my mono,s :thumbsdow thats why i was wondering about adding a second pair that would only cost an extra £800 :rolleyes:
     
  29. Plump

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    At £1200 for a 250x3R, I'd take a pile!
    And I think these prices are not so far away from happening (used market). A year or so from now....


    I know someone who bought two DPs at 1500 (one new from HiFiBitz, one used and upgraded). He also always used to claim it would happen soon, and it did happen indeed.
    Let's see if he's right with 3 channel amps. His prediction is max 1.5k
     

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