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2 Questions - sub and speaker cables

Discussion in 'TAG McLaren Audio Owners' Forum' started by Bolle, Jul 31, 2005.

  1. Bolle

    Bolle
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    Hi, I have an AV32R BP192 (single processor) and I have two question I hope you guys can help me with.

    1) I'm want to get a subwoofer as I'm currently using a 5.0 setup and I'm feeling I'm missing quite a bit of the whole movie experience. In stereo my Mission 753 are adequate, but could use some bass support.
    I'm thinking about getting a SVS 25-31+ which is for sale here in Holland. However I feel this sub might be a bit too spectacular for stereo, so is it possible to assign different crossover frequencies and subwoofer levels for surround (DTS, DD) and Stereo+sub settings to tame it a bit for stereo. Can't really find anything in the supplies documentation.
    A second option I'm looking at it using the SVS just for surround and get a BK XLS200 in due time as bass support for the fronts using high level speaker cables connections. The BK is probably a bit tighter and quicker than the SVS, but at expense of a lot of deeper bass, thus might be a more 'musical' sub.

    2) My Mission fronts (original 753) tend to sound a bit bright, and I feel this somewhat increased by me VdH Clearwater speaker cable I'm using. I saw a set of TAG speaker cables for sale, would this cure some of the brightness? I can't seem to find any reviews of the cable.

    Cheers,
    Menno
     
  2. GrahamMG

    GrahamMG
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    Oh dear, buying cables to "tame" brightness and taylor the sound :nono: :nono: :nono: :nono: :nono: :nono: :nono:

    For the sensible question I can say that the AV can have different settings for sub level depending on format, just go through the setup menu it is all in the manual honest..... Once you have setup the sub correctly for level etc, I'd use direct+sub for normal stereo duties first then play with the surround formats to your choice. The sub corectly set will seamlessly integrate with your speakers, if the bass is overblown then it is in the wrong place or not set for level correctly...... Of course there is always the AV32RDP or AV192R upgrade which then gives you TMREQ which works wonders for the sub especially once set up well...... In fact it makes pickign your speakers much easier as your measuring the room and correcting the output accordingly, cheaper than buying new speakers or indeed cables....... ;)
     
  3. Plump

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    I haven't been playing with SP for at least three years now but I am pretty sure you can not do this. Of course I might be wrong.
     
  4. GrahamMG

    GrahamMG
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    You could be right but I'm sure ours could.... If not yet another reason for getting a DP...... Assuming the unit is on the latest firmware?
     
  5. Plump

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    I APOLOGIZE - of course you can trim the level.
    It is too early in the morning, I was thinking about different X-overs ...

    from the manual:

    mode dependent subwoofer trim:

    The level of the subwoofer output if a dedicated subwoofer is
    connected can be altered by +/10dB independently for each of
    the following processing modes: Dolby Digital, DTS, Pro Logic, Pro
    Logic II (option), TMS and Direct + Sub.
    To adjust these settings, press the menu key and select Change Set-
    Up
    , select Loudspeakers, select Subwoofer then select Mode Adjustment.
     
  6. GrahamMG

    GrahamMG
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    I've been at work for hours....... Its the afternoon's I stuggle with...... :D
     
  7. roversd1

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    Hi Verschuur

    I have been running 753's since 1994 so am well used to their 'forward' sound. I managed to find a 1970's 'Audio Pro' subwoofer which more than compliments the 753's and the AV32R bass managment. Because its an older sub, its not hell bent on bring the house down with every explosion.

    Taming the 753's - live with them, they are perfect for home cinema as they add a lot of detail to quiet sections and bring out the action for left and right.

    If I could find a pair, I'd have another set for the rears
     
  8. Bolle

    Bolle
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    Thanks for the reactions guys!

    I read the manual in bed just before going to sleep, must have read over it :oops: But after posting this mail and shutting down my PC yesterday night I fiddled around in the menu and discovered the mode dependant setting. So apologies for asking, I'll do some more self studying next time.... At least this option makes the SVS a more sensible option for me. Lot of spectacular slam in movies, a bit more subdued in stereo.
    The DP and TMREQ seems like an awesomne option, unforunately somewhat outside my budget. I'm looking at getting the Rocket R-DES system sometime, seems like a good solution for room EQ at a nice price.

    Regarding the cables, I absolutely agree with stament that you shouldn't use cables to cure 'problems' in your system. However in this case I feel (based on reviews) that the VdH cables might be the problem, and that switching to a more neutral cable will help. So I'm taming it ro tuning it, I'm trying to go to a more neutral system.

    Cheers,
    Menno
     
  9. GrahamMG

    GrahamMG
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    Don't believe anything you read on cables mate...... A cable should just take signal in and shove it out again, it can't add anything to the sound but it can take stuff away......Think about it....
     
  10. derekn

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    Hi menno,

    With your remark about cables you're likely to get some teasing. Personally I find that snake oil rubbed on the cables takes most of the brightness away. :)

    I've been watching your thread in the Subwoofer forum and wondered if you'd bought the local SVS - not yet it would seem.

    My music/movie split is similar to yours and, for what it's worth, my experience (limited to my ears, my room and my setup) is:

    At risk of saying the obvious, I think the "bigger and better" your main speakers the less you need a sub for music. My mains are like coffins stood on end and after considerable experiment I use a cross over of 50Hz, I'm very happy with music and when I switch my amp off to see what the sub is up to, I find that it is just deeply murmuring away, with very few thumps. With your SP you can calibrate the speakers to give a balance you enjoy (the DP with RoomEQ is a major and worthwhile upgrade). I listen in "Direct plus Sub" and when I compare it with "Direct" I find the difference discernable but not massive. In your other thread you say you intend to upgrade your main speakers soon and, for music alone, you may decide to do that before buying a sub.

    However, for movies it is a different matter. As mentioned, you can adjust the sub trim for DTS and DD inputs. Once you've had a decent sub at work in a movie there's no going back - it's as clear as night and day.

    Personally, I'd go and buy the second hand SVS, but it's your money. I've found that blocking a port does not work for me - the gain in lower frequency is not worth the loss of volume higher up.

    Sounds to me like you're in a win/win situation.

    Regards,
     
  11. Bolle

    Bolle
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    Yeah I know cables are a sensitive subject, and I don't expect any wonders from changing them. But as I've never used other cables on the speakers than the VdH ones, I'm curious whether other cables will make any difference. But I don't think I'll ever want to spend more than 150 - 200 UKP on a set of speaker cables.

    Regarding the sub, after listening a bit yesterday I still feel that my ancient Missions are adequate than music. Although a bit more depth in bass could be present, I don't feel it lacking or diminishing the enjoyment of the music.

    In my current 5.0 set-up, and after getting the demonstration of the SVS, I do feel I'm missing out without a sub. I believe this mirrors the experience of derekn a lot.
    Therefore my primary goal is improving surround performance with the sub, but it would be nice to also increase the stereo performance in one go. But if this isn't possible at my current budget, I suppose I would give up wanting a sub for stereo and just focus on surround.
    I could improve my stereo performance by upgrading my speakers in due time which is in the planning next year or so anyway, or adding a small musical sub (BK, REL, MJ).

    But with the subwoofer options on the TAG, I feel I can take the risk and start fiddling with the setting to try to make it integrate in stereo as well.

    And if everything fails, I can always flog the sub again!

    Cheers,
    Menno
     
  12. Plump

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    Menno,
    I was always opinion that you can never implement SUB so well into 2 channel listening as using real full size speakers that go as low as 25Hz or 30Hz.
    Also no full range speakers can produce that well home theatre bass as powered subwoofer.

    So compromise IMHO is all what's left.
     
  13. Kevinc

    Kevinc
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    As a fellow VdH owner, I'd say if you're going to experiment to see whether the VdH is really causing a bright sound, why not try a comparison with something much cheaper like Canare's 4S11 Star-Quad speaker cable which consists of 4x14 guage conductors (effectively, 11 guage), as well as expensive cables? If you're happy with that you'll have a lot of money left over: if you can't tell the difference vs the Clearwater then either both are equally bright, or maybe it's just that everything is the same...

    Having said that, I use VdH's "The Teatrack" which I recall is the bi-wire version of The Clearwater. My dealer was long of it in about 1995 and did a good "throw it in" deal, and given its overall specifications and the cyncial nature of my Physics degree mind I did not bother auditioning it. However, I bought sufficient of it, unterminated, that I have since been able to compare short lengths with long lengths. Now it's been a long time since my Physics degree and maybe the laws of electromagnetism have changed since then thanks to the pioneering work of Professor Kimber et al, but it does seem to me that if the VdH cables really are "bright" because of their "silver" content as is often alleged then if three yards audibly changes the signal then 6 yards would surely change it twice as much... anyway, I can't hear any difference between long and short for what it's worth.

    Also, while doing a lot of auditioning of potential TAG replacements my dealer insusted on lending me a set of $18,000 Transparent Audio speaker cables (you know, the ones with the fancy black boxes in). Fortunately, I couldn't tell any difference vs the VdH. Phew. However, my mind may be closed: the important thing is to get something you're happy with. Good luck!
     
  14. GrahamMG

    GrahamMG
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    Very very few speakers will go to 25hz without quite a lot of roll off and distortion IMHO, of course something truely huge like a pair of PMC BB5XBD's might but they ain't really for the average home.... The thing about subs is that you can have a nice big driver and the main speaker doesn't have to be huge to fit it in, as long as the sub is driven and more importantly controlled accurately it should be able to go as low as 25Hz with greater accuracy and control with lower distortion. I'm not saying it will always be better though...
     
  15. GrahamMG

    GrahamMG
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    Another 10/10,we are going to get along nicely :smashin:
     

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