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1920*1080 or 1366*768

Discussion in 'LCD & LED LCD TVs' started by PUD the Ancient, Sep 20, 2005.

  1. PUD the Ancient

    PUD the Ancient
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    I am currently trying to choose between two lcd screens, the philips 37pf9830 and the philips 32pf9830. The 37 has a resolution of 1920*1080 and the 32 a resolution of 1366*768. Would i be correct in assuming that the 32 will handle 720p better than the 37 and the 37 will handle 1080i better than the 32 because of the scaling involved. If this is the case would i be better with the 32 because there will be more 720p HD material than 1080i.

    Thanks to anyone who can help me on this :)
     
  2. David Mackenzie

    David Mackenzie
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    Yup, you're absolutely correct there.

    But, I've never myself seen a proper 1080 line LCD TV, so whether or not the scaling of 720 line pictures to 1080 lines is noticeable or destructive or not is another matter.
     
  3. alefsin

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    I'm no so sure Lyris. 720p should be resampled again to either 768 or 1080 lines so I don't see any andvantage for 1366*768 compared to 1920*1080 in this regard. On the other hand, with 1080 lines you have a higher resolution so the result of resampling may even look a tiny bit better than that of 768 lines.
     
  4. richard plumb

    richard plumb
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    Will there be more 720p material than 1080i? Does the 1080p philips have a good internal deinterlacer to make 1080i look good?


    Sport will be 720p, but movies and hopefully documentaries/artsworld would most likely be 1080i for detail resolving.

    I think the clincher will be US drama imports. Anyone know the ratio of 1080i/720p for these?



    BTW, the Sky HD promo loop in Comet has a Battlestar Galactica clip - damn, they've found my weak spot :p
     
  5. PUD the Ancient

    PUD the Ancient
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    Would it not also follow that the higher res 37" would suffer more on normal Sky broadcasts from artifacts and picture noise.
     
  6. LazenbyADT

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    NBC broadcasts 1080i

    ABC Broadcasts 720p (except Dallas which is 1080i)

    CBS Broadcasts 1080i

    The WB Broadcasts 1080i

    Fox Broadcasts 720p

    HBO Broadcasts 1080i

    Obviously the original source material could be recorded in either format but this does give an indication that 1080i would be the way to go, but i`ve got a feeling that most UK broadcasters will go for 720p.
     
  7. ariomanus

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    Hello,

    I've seen the 32PF9830 and the 37PF9830 in a German shop. I've got the impression that pixel plus 2 hd does a real good job with scaling and deinterlacing.
    But I've also seen that on the 37PF9830 1080i material is also scaled because it is shown with some overscan. I hope that Philips will offer a software update so that it is also possible to get a 1:1 pixel mapping with 1080i which is not possible at the moment.

    Regards
    Ariomanus
     
  8. PUD the Ancient

    PUD the Ancient
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    Thanks for that, would you say that the 37 is as good as the 32 for normal digital tv ie sky or is there more noise on the picture because of the extra scaling.
     
  9. alefsin

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    Which "extra" scaling? In any case, the TV set will need to scale the SD programs so the situation is quite similar. You may see more artifacts on the 37" display simply because it is bigger!
     
  10. PUD the Ancient

    PUD the Ancient
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    The point I was trying to make was that surely because the 37" is a 1920*1080 panel it has to scale the picture more than the 32" which is a 1366*768. Please correct me if i am wrong.
     
  11. NicolasB

    NicolasB
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    720p scaled up to 1920x1080 will result in negligible loss of quality. 1080i deinterlaced and downscaled to 1280x720 will result in massive loss of quality.
     
  12. neil c

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    NicholasB I believe they were refering to SD sources. An SD sourced scaled to a 1366 x 768 resolution on smaller screen will look better than an SD source scaled to 1920 x 1080 on a bigger screen, at least to most peoples eyes. Not only will the picture size be increased (and quite possibly the viewing distance decreased) but the SD sourced will be scaled further and spread over twice as many pixels - a 4:1 pixel ratio (1:4?) is it not?

    A deinterlaced and downscaled 1080i image will result in a loss of quality, but on a 1366 x 768 resolution display most people won't see much difference between 720p and 1080i. I've tried many analogue and digital sources at both 720p and 1080i on my Sanyo Z3 projector, and theres not a great deal of difference between the two, even though the Z3 is native 720p.

    I still havnt seen a 1920 x 1080 LCD display in action, so I'm keen to see if it's worth the extra cash over 1366 x 768 at my prefered viewing distance.

    There hasn't been much news on the 42PF9830, has anyone seen one or know where to demo the 37/42PF9830's in London or Leeds?
     
  13. ianh64

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    Why? There is no technical reason why 1080i downscaled to 1280x720/1366x768 will be poor. It is almost the same amount of data and a decent deinterlacer/scaler should make a good job of it. Also, the human eye is less susceptable to horizontal resolution, add this to the fact that a large proportion of 1080i material is actually 1440 not 1920, it is entirely possible that the filtering that takes place as part of scaling will make 1080i material on a 720p display could actually look better.
     
  14. NicolasB

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    Sorry, I was answering the question higher up the thread :blush:. Someone asked:
    I don't think there will be any significant difference. If you could scale 720x576 to 1440x1152, that might look quite good, but you can't. The only thing which will make a difference is the size of the screen, and then only if you're sitting just as close to it: if you sit farther back so that the angle at the eye covered by one "pixel" from the source image is the same, there's no reason at all to assume that stretching SD to 1920x1080 will look worse than 1280x720.

    On the contrary, given top-notch source material, 720p will look much better, because it has double the frame rate and no deinterlacing artefacts. The superior resolution of 1080i is entirely wasted. By contrast, on a 1920x1080 line screen it becomes a fair contest: 720p has twice as may frames per second, but 1080i has twice as many pixels per frame (actually 2.25 times as many)

    That's presumably because you're viewing source material that is not native 720p (i.e. not shot at 720p on video). If the material is originally cinema film then you're not going to get more than 24/25 frames per second out of it anyway, and 720p has no advantage over a theoretical 720i format.

    If you were viewing that type of material (shot on film) in 1080i on a 1920x1080 display then this would absolutely slaughter the 720p equivalent: double the resolution and the same frame rate.

    For a 45" 1080p screen you'd need to be sitting about 6 feet from the screen to get the full benefit.

    Yes, because a 1920x1080 screen has exactly the same number of pixels as a 1366x768 screen, so there is absolutely no loss of detail. :rolleyes:

    On top that, upscaling an image is relatively easy to do well, and loses almost no detail. Deinterlacing is much more difficult to do well - in fact hardly anything is capable of really deinterlacing 1080i properly. If the display is 1920x1080 this doesn't matter much - but you have to deinterlace the 1080i image correctly first in order to downscale it. So a deinterlacing followed by a downscaling is much more likely to introduce artefacts than a simple upscaling.

    In fact, many 720p devices cheat. What they should do is deinterlace 1080i/50 to 1080p/25, then downscale to 720p/25, then double each frame to reach 720p/50. What many of them actually do is to treat each field as a 1920x512 progressive frame, which is rescaled to 1280x720.

    (shudder)

    And that's really NOT going to look good compared to native 720p.
     
  15. Rimmer

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    Surely 1080i50 video material should be deinterlaced to 1080p50, or were you referring to film material, where the frame rate is only 24/25Hz and must be framed doubled after deinterlacing?

    Unfortunately even Philips' new 42" and 37" 1080p LCD screens 'cheat'. There is no motion adaptive deinterlacing of 1080i (no 2:2 or 3:2 film mode detection of 1080i sources), yet since the 9830 does not accept 1080p, a high quality external scaler can't be used. Scaling 1920 x 1080i to 1920 x 1080p should in theory involve no horizontal scaling, but since the scaling chip crops all incoming signals to simulate CRT overscan, there will be both horizontal and vertical scaling.
     
  16. gavinp

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    so what's the answer to the question? Which to go for, and if the 32" then doesn't the cheaper Sony come into play...
     
  17. RockySpieler

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    Does anyone know if the BlueRay / HD DVD's HD resolutions have been set?

    I have read it could be 1080p24, interestingly this is part of the USA ATSC tuner requirement, but is not included in the current EC HDReady rules.

    So if you buy a Philips 1080 panel, it MAY not support 1080p24. As the USA market is much larger for HD TV's and their ATSC tuner's can handle it is likely that 1080p24 may become the prefered HD format.

    I would personally hold off buying a 1920x1080 panel until the formats are more clearly defined. Also some 1920x1080 panel such as the Benq DV3750 cannot take a 1080p signal from a PC. So imho it is really only early adopters with more cash than sense who should beta test these 1080 panels, this will hopefully ensure the 2nd generation 1080p panels are faultless.

    This is just my personel view, I realise there are many more senior members browsing these forums many working within HD broadcasting and scaler technologies.

    HD-DVD 1080p debate:-
    http://www.highdefforum.com/showthread.php?t=11758&page=1&pp=10
    1080p TV Q&A:-
    http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages/followup.htm
     

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