1080p vs 4K continued

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
I feel 1080p vs 4K blurays is probably more relevant on the PJ forum. Namely because @Stridsvognen has consistently brought up some great points about it. But also because, as we using pretty giant screens; we are probably best positioned to appreciate the difference in PQ between 4K and 1080p discs.


I've recently watched two discs and compared with 1080p/4K,

1. Greatest Showman
2. Batman Begins


Greatest Showman, I honestly found the SDR version dark and gloomy whilst the HDR one had a lot more detail and much much brighter, even if I aggressively DTMed it with a bias for more contrast and deeper colours.

Batman Begins however looks utterly disgusting in HDR. The colours are all out of whack, the colour grade looks rubbish at times, skin tones look like they've been put through an instagram filter and the perceived contrast feels low in a lot of scenes.

Smacked in the 1080p disc.. and wow.. looks far more pristine.



So @Stridsvognen looks like you were kind of right. Will have to double dip on 1080p and 4K disc now.

I couldn't personally tell a difference sharpness wise between these 2 discs, despite the fact I run a big screen.
 

Stridsvognen

Well-known Member
4K projectors is a benefit on the big screen for sure, however i dont find the 4K source material is, if you run 1080P and uses a good scaler, i never been able to find more pixel information on the JVC N series, if i use the OPPO 203 upscaling to 4K.

The WCG and HDR tone mapping is a mood point, some love it without knowing why, i kind of hate it as i never know if its right or wrong, and yes there is scenes that looks more wow on tone mapped HDR, in general i prefer the standard 1080P blu ray, with a perfect calibration, and there is no doubt, it is what it is and how it was intended to look like.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
4K projectors is a benefit on the big screen for sure, however i dont find the 4K source material is, if you run 1080P and uses a good scaler, i never been able to find more pixel information on the JVC N series, if i use the OPPO 203 upscaling to 4K.

The WCG and HDR tone mapping is a mood point, some love it without knowing why, i kind of hate it as i never know if its right or wrong, and yes there is scenes that looks more wow on tone mapped HDR, in general i prefer the standard 1080P blu ray, with a perfect calibration, and there is no doubt, it is what it is and how it was intended to look like.


i think a lot of HDR lovers will like HDR because it, for brighter scenes, seems to move away from the colour black.

I found SDR version for example of greatest showman would have looked lovely on a JVC / a lower black level PJ.
 

Stridsvognen

Well-known Member
For 1080P eshifters it makes even less sense to run ¤K HDR sources, even worse if they dont track DCI P3 well, and then there is all the point of HDR having to be brighter and reducing dynamic range/ contrast.
My point is that no projector have any HDR capabilities, first it dont have anywhere near the light needed to the HDR standards, 2nd even the best projectors have limited dynamic/ contrast.

Thats not the same as a lot of people is not happy and prefer HDR on projectors, just as lots of people run enhancement of all sorts to distort the image.
 

podmax

Standard Member
@kenshingintoki your account of the Batman Begins UHD not looking good is not the first time Ive heard it. I've read others accounts of preferring the blu-ray. I was looking to upgrade my nolan batman blurays because of the excessive black crush he tends to do on his films but I had read others accounts of the batman begins transfer and held off as that is my favorite of the trilogy
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
@kenshingintoki your account of the Batman Begins UHD not looking good is not the first time Ive heard it. I've read others accounts of preferring the blu-ray. I was looking to upgrade my nolan batman blurays because of the excessive black crush he tends to do on his films but I had read others accounts of the batman begins transfer and held off as that is my favorite of the trilogy


Its my favorite film too. By far.

The 4K UHD looks disgusting. It literally looks like an instagram filter is over the image. It will make you think you need to re-calibrate your screen its that bad. I can't believe it got released to be honest.
 

Furnace Inferno

Well-known Member
I thought it was fine, can’t say I particularly noticed any issue with it. The DNR on the standard Dark Knight Blu-ray though is very obvious.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
I thought it was fine, can’t say I particularly noticed any issue with it. The DNR on the standard Dark Knight Blu-ray though is very obvious.
please double check them.

the colour grade on batman begins 4K is horrid. skin tones look completely out of whack IMO.
 

Furnace Inferno

Well-known Member
please double check them.

the colour grade on batman begins 4K is horrid. skin tones look completely out of whack IMO.
But that is how it looked in the cinema so it’s the more accurate version. I only watched it a couple of months ago and as I said for me, I didn’t notice any obvious colour issues. The DNR on the Blurays, particularly TDK was very obvious however.
 

ask4me2

Active Member
Just watched the 4K HDR version of Batman Begins, and it is colorful, but did not look completely out of whack on my HDR calibrated TV or Projector system. I guess if the setup was not calibrated correctly and were running a little hot on colors (red), to begin with, then there might look more whacky.

I have a bigger microwave problem in that movie, impressing how water molecules instantly go into vapor even shielded inside metal tubings when all the other unshielded waterbags (people) in close proximity to the power source do not.... Guess there are some other nature laws at play in Gotham city.
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
I feel 1080p vs 4K blurays is probably more relevant on the PJ forum. Namely because @Stridsvognen has consistently brought up some great points about it. But also because, as we using pretty giant screens; we are probably best positioned to appreciate the difference in PQ between 4K and 1080p discs.


I've recently watched two discs and compared with 1080p/4K,

1. Greatest Showman
2. Batman Begins


Greatest Showman, I honestly found the SDR version dark and gloomy whilst the HDR one had a lot more detail and much much brighter, even if I aggressively DTMed it with a bias for more contrast and deeper colours.

Batman Begins however looks utterly disgusting in HDR. The colours are all out of whack, the colour grade looks rubbish at times, skin tones look like they've been put through an instagram filter and the perceived contrast feels low in a lot of scenes.

Smacked in the 1080p disc.. and wow.. looks far more pristine.



So @Stridsvognen looks like you were kind of right. Will have to double dip on 1080p and 4K disc now.

I couldn't personally tell a difference sharpness wise between these 2 discs, despite the fact I run a big screen.
Here’s an interesting video on the subject and highlights that maybe when we say our machine is calibrated and yet looks difference to what others suggest it should be it might actually be the version being used is difference.


I honestly never knew the same movie could vary so greatly between editions.

On a personal note I actually prefer 1080P over 4K mostly, might be the difference between Bluray players Panasonic compared to the Sony as I use Panasonic for 4K and Sony for 1080P
 
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kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Here’s an interesting video on the subject and highlights that maybe when we say our machine is calibrated and yet looks difference to what others suggest it should be it might actually be the version being used is difference.


I honestly never knew the same movie could vary so greatly between editions.

On a personal note I actually prefer 1080P over 4K mostly, might be the difference between Bluray players Panasonic compared to the Sony as I use Panasonic for 4K and Sony for 1080P


Yup its completely mental. Some of the look natural and nuanced and some look like a saturated mess.
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
Yup its completely mental. Some of the look natural and nuanced and some look like a saturated mess.
It is indeed shocking and I am sure I have some of those crappy 4K HDR versions in my collection. :rolleyes:

Funny on most of the comparisons I actually prefer the original.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
It is indeed shocking and I am sure I have some of those crappy 4K HDR versions in my collection. :rolleyes:

Funny on most of the comparisons I actually prefer the original.


Sadly looking similar to me.
I'm going to have to get both versions of my favorite films and remux in the atmos tracks.


4K HDR which I've found look gorgeous are Greatest Showman (I feel its almost entirely different to the SDR version, much brighter and for the better) and Mulan.

Maybe its moreso older films which have been 'converted' to HDR look a bit crap compared the 1080p discs.
 

mb3195

Distinguished Member
are you sure its not your settings mate? I had my system re-calibrated 2 weeks ago so I know my colours are accurate. I've just tested this and it looks good. Colours look natural and life like.
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
are you sure its not your settings mate? I had my system re-calibrated 2 weeks ago so I know my colours are accurate. I've just tested this and it looks good. Colours look natural and life like.
What edition do you have so @kenshingintoki knows if he has the same.
 

mb3195

Distinguished Member

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
are you sure its not your settings mate? I had my system re-calibrated 2 weeks ago so I know my colours are accurate. I've just tested this and it looks good. Colours look natural and life like.

100% sure

tbh can tell by this youtube comparison


just look at 0:08 seconds

Alfred's skin tones go from looking like a real person to a very strong orange-huged instagram filter.


Tested this on the OLED and projector FYI to make sure wasn't mistakening anything.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Its not so much a HDR issue. Its a colour grading issue - aka they decided to re-grade it so its an artistic choice. I just find it really startling as the SDR Bluray pretty much nailed this film.

@Stridsvognen touched on this on an old post but it seems like some studios, rather then add something tangible to the 4K HDR disc (such as a remixed audio track), decide to just re-grade the film; usually with the proviso 'closer to artists intent'.

However as we saw in LOTR with the insane DNR (which at times causes objects to be erased from the shot!!), it doesn't work well but at least they packed in a re-grade which I thought looked better, proper HDR and a new soundtrack.

What the 4K version needed, before HDR, was more sharpness as the 1080p disc (and 4K disc) are very soft compared to the latter films (well the latter films had packed in IMAX films so..).
 

mb3195

Distinguished Member
100% sure

tbh can tell by this youtube comparison


just look at 0:08 seconds

Alfred's skin tones go from looking like a real person to a very strong orange-huged instagram filter.


Tested this on the OLED and projector FYI to make sure wasn't mistakening anything.
Skins tones definitely look more orange, but the rest of the scenes look far better 🤷‍♂️
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Skins tones definitely look more orange, but the rest of the scenes look far better 🤷‍♂️

cant have everyone in gotham rocking a fake tan
 

mb3195

Distinguished Member
cant have everyone in gotham rocking a fake tan
Life is lived through a filter these days mate.....just check out Instagram, Facebook or any other social media platform 😆
 

ask4me2

Active Member
Easy to see that there are big differences in these youtube comparison videos, but I wonder how they have done these comparisons all the time it is not straightforward and easy to do this correct between 8bit rec709 sdr BD and 10bit P3 or rec2020 HDR 4K BD source material, showing this in an sdr rec709 youtube video.

1619958691301.png
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Easy to see that there are big differences in these youtube comparison videos, but I wonder how they have done these comparisons all the time it is not straightforward and easy to do this correct between 8bit rec709 sdr BD and 10bit P3 or rec2020 HDR 4K BD source material, showing this in an sdr rec709 youtube video.

View attachment 1504495


Dunno but they're fairly accurate to what I see.

If you want to pop up a 1080p disc and 4K disc and then compare the YT comparison, they illustrate the colour grade differences very easily and its not exactly hard to do as a different grade is drastically different.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Life is lived through a filter these days mate.....just check out Instagram, Facebook or any other social media platform 😆


Sadly very true...

As a single guy who dates a lot, I can tell you that the filters-life can be very misleading.
 

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