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1080i signal through component?

Discussion in 'Televisions' started by billygoat, Jan 27, 2004.

  1. billygoat

    billygoat
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    I just bought a JVC HV32P37 (1080i compatible) and am also in the market for a new DVD player. Of course, I want a DVD player with progressive scan, but would like to exploit the HDTV compatibility of my new set as well.

    I'm not too knowledgeable about HDTV however. I have some questions:

    (1) is it technically possible for a DVD player to upscale the image to 1080i and output that signal through component? Or is that only possible over DVI?

    (2) do any such DVD players exist? Like the Samsung DVD-HD931? Any others?

    (3) Is this kind of upscaling any good at all? Would it be significantly better than using the source signal?
     
  2. richard plumb

    richard plumb
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    1) Yes

    2)There you go :) No others that I know of

    3) Depends on the scaler and how it is done. If its completely digital, i.e its scaled before creating the analogue picture, and it has a good scaler, then it should give an improvement.

    Having said that, the plasma panels scaler might be better, or if its a lower res panel (eg 480 lines), then I don't know if you'd get a benefit. I think you'd need a display device with at least 720 lines to get benefit.
     
  3. Dutch

    Dutch
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    billygoat,

    The Momitsu V880 will output 720p and 1080i from component and DVI outputs. I think it would work fine with your JVC set and the Sigma chip does a good job in scaling SD material. By the way, the European version of the HD931 is called the HD935. Hope this helps.

    Steve
     
  4. billygoat

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    Thanks Steve and Richard for the info. Will look into that.

    Another question: I really would like to get into progressive scan, partly because I am quite sensitive to NTSC judder. Is 1080i a progressive signal? I always figured it wasn't. And wouldn't it consequently suffer from NTSC judder? And if so: wouldn't 480p be better than 1080i in terms of jaggies/judder ?

    Or am I wrong and is the 480p in this kind of player just being upscaled to an equivalent 1080i signal?
     
  5. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    The i in 1080i signifies interlaced. If it were 1080p it'd be progressive.

    If your display is a plasma and is not a 1024x1024 pixel alis unit then you are already seeing a progressive image as the display cannot funcion in an interlcaed manner and will be de-interlacing everything sent to it.

    Judder on NTSC is caused by the conversion of 24 frames per second film to 60 fields per second video. Whether it is interlaced (60 fields a second) or progressive (60 frames a second) has no effect on the judder. With material originally shot on video you would not see judder in NTSC material.

    Hope this is some use.

    Gordon
     
  6. richard plumb

    richard plumb
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    1080i is interlaced, but most plasmas will display it as a progressive image, downscaled to whatever panel resolution it has.

    you'll still get NTSC judder from a progressive image. Although progressive scan combines the frames from a DVD to form the original progressive images, these are still output at 60 frames per second, so some are repeated - hence you'll still get the judder.

    PAL progressive doesn't have this (although you probably have lots of NTSC DVDs).

    Only option is if you can display at a multiple of 24 fps, which is movie speed. 72Hz is probably the best, although 48 might be OK. I don't know if any screens do this, but computer ones will.

    You'd probably also need a computer to output that refresh rate. That'd make a good option for DVD playback.
     
  7. Dutch

    Dutch
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    billygoat,

    You are correct, 1080i is an interlaced signal, as indicated by the "i". It is a 60Hz signal from the Momitsu, so it will still have 3:2 pulldown which produces judder from the 60 fields made from 24 frames. To output 1080i from 480i source material, it is just upscaled. For a 720p output, the 480i source would be deinterlaced and then upscaled. Hope this helps.

    Steve

    Edit: Richard beat me to it!
     
  8. billygoat

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    Seems I have to redefine my notion of progressive scan (just when I thought I understood ;) ) I thought PS eliminates all negative side effects of 3:2 pulldown, including judder. I naively assumed that e.g. 480p entailed a refresh rate of a multiple of 24hz, which a PS-compatible display would by definition be able to handle.

    Some background: my TV is a 1080i compatible CRT (JVC HV32P37). It can do 1920*1080i@50Hz and 60Hz (see this thread).

    So Dutch: if I understand correctly, the Momitsu outputs 1080i@60hz, whatever the source. So it doesn't only retain NTSC judder by default, but would also introduce judder on PAL signals as well? In that case, I'd be better off with a player that doesn't upscale, wouldn't I? Unless I can find a player that can do 1080i@50hz (yamakawa 365?)

    My final question (and then I stop bugging you all): all things being equal, in my specific case, does it actually make sense to look for a player that upscales to 1080i rather than one that does 578p and 480p?

    This is an extremely informative thread for me. Thanks for the replies so far
     
  9. richard plumb

    richard plumb
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    does your TV also accept 480p and 576p? If so, I'd be tempted to stick to that for the time being.

    If its a true HD set, and has more effective resolution than 576 lines though, you might get more out of it with a higher resolution.

    If you have a decent PC, try downloading the trial version of powerstrip and using a software DVD player, or download some test HD clips from wmvhd.com they are available in 1080p or 720p, so if your TV takes a VGA feed you're away. Or if not, you'll need a VGA->'whatever your TV takes' converter
     
  10. foxyloxy

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    The Samsung HD935 does not output 720p or 1080i over component - it only does this over DVI-D. It does output 480p and 576p over component however.

    Steve
     
  11. billygoat

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    There's some alternatives on the horizon. But I'm still not sure yet whether I should go for a player that transforms a 480i signal into 480p or one that transforms it into 1080i. In theory, I would assume the latter, although in practice I'll probably have better luck finding a good PS player than finding a good HD-upscaling player.
     
  12. Bob Todd

    Bob Todd
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    The Kiss DVD players output component upto 1080i or 1600x1200 via the scart

    u have to use the secret menu to acces this though
     
  13. billygoat

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    Ironduke do they also do progressive scan? Which KISS players are you talking about in particular
     
  14. pcrepairshop

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    Hello all!
    Thank you to everyone involved in getting this site together, I've found lots of useful information here. I bought a Zenith DVB318 when I got my 42" HDTV last year. This DVD player has 480/720/1080 output via the component and DVI-D connections. The quality is amazing! You can see the difference right at the start-up DVD screen. You can change the output resolution by pressing UPCONVERSION button on the front panel. This DVD player also plays anything I throw at it! :clap: I paid $219 at the time but noticed that amazon and pricegrabber have it for cheaper now. Hope this helps someone looking for HD upconversion through components. Just my two cents...
     
  15. Kalos Geros

    Kalos Geros
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    A few corrections on some of the statements above, i won't quote:

    1) LCD/Plasma displays CAN and do function in the interlaced manner, it is only preceived by manufacturers that it would be better to disable this functionality as not to give bad reputation to both display technologies being advertised as technologies that would do away with SD's interlaced problem...

    2) Interlaced 3:2 pulldown is easily detectable by certain de-interlacer's logic (Faroudja etc) and can be eliminated (i.e. converted to the original's exact 24 fps frames) provided it is run at 1080p so judder is eliminated since the panel should be able to run at 72Hz, if run in 1080i 3:2 temporal judder would still be present...but since we have established that display can go either way, it is with film sources wiser for the display to run at 1080p while with original 1080i it is better for the display to run in interlaced mode (if the display's manufacturer allowed it to-some do some don't)

    3) I believe the Samsung's HD series players can be hacked/forced to output 720/1080 via component...

    Cheers
     

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