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1080i and 1080p scaling

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by alwyn, Apr 9, 2005.

  1. alwyn

    alwyn
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    My dvd player has 1080i but what scalers or plasmas have 1080p,Anybody know whats what?
     
  2. Welwynnick

    Welwynnick
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    This is a question that was waiting to be asked, and is pushing the current boundaries of video processing. High def scalers will de-interlace 1080i to 1080p, but with maybe some limitations. The iScan HD will process it from DVI only, and the Centre Stage may only accept a 60Hz input. Lummagen and Crystalio will probably work well, cheaper ones may not. I don't think any will use motion adaptive or inverse tele-cine de-interlacing, which is what you would really wish for, and some may just feed it through.

    There may be a better solution to what you want, however. If you are going to use a scaler, feed it with 576i from the DVD, and let the scaler do the up-conversion instead of the player. That may not be what you bought the player for, but unless you have a very expensive player, you will probably get better picture quality.
     
  3. Vince M

    Vince M
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    Key to this is understanding that trying to upscale to the highest res.possible is not necessarily the best thing for the image.
    I have found NEC XG`s love 768P for example,Marquee 8500`s look nice at 720p..

    Its finding the "sweet spot" whereby the image looks best..
    dvd starts with 480 TRUE lines of res..and personally I think dvd at 1080p can be overkill.

    TRUE 1080i AT 1080P looks lovely-though in my view not necessary-1080i left at 1080i is fantastic.
     
  4. rscott4563

    rscott4563
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    The Lumagen (HDP & ProHDP) will do inverse tele-cine (3:2 and 2:2 pull down) with orignal film source 1080i material at full bandwidth i.e 1080x1920 so for film sources at least you can't get any better. Video at 1080i (not too sure what would use this though? As most HiDef Video content will hopefully be produced as progressive ~ 720p) will as far as I know probabaly not get the per-pixel motion adaptive treatment due to a lack of processing power available, this I think applies to every home cinema (i.e not a $60,000 Terenex) video processors currently available.

    Cheers

    Ryan
     
  5. Welwynnick

    Welwynnick
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    I heard from a good source it was just the Teranex that did that, but given that people will be looking scalers to de-interlace 1080i next year, that capability could be a descriminator in favour of the Lumagens. I guess it would help to avoid a bit of image softening. Still pushing the boundaries, though. I doubt if anything at the moment will be able to handle 1080p at high refresh rates because of the video bandwidth.
     
  6. rscott4563

    rscott4563
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    I think the only devices which will really be able to make use of a 1080i to 1080p inverse tele-cined film source are a 9" CRT (in good condition and very well setup), a DILA/LCoS 3 Panel 1080x1920 PJ JVC HD2K, or a 1080x1920 SXRD such as the Sony Qualia.

    Other than these you'll still probably be able to use a full 1080x1920p signal but it will be down scaled to suit the display, this in itself isn't all that bad as you will still benefit from using the very best quality source signal as down scaling normally helps reduce artifacts and increases the S/N ratio (Then again with a 1080x1920 source there shouldn't be any artifacts you'd need to get rid of. Also down scaling will end up giving a softer final image, though some people say this can give a more film like appearance on digital displays).

    Ryan
     
  7. Welwynnick

    Welwynnick
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    There are one or two rather more reasonably priced (but much smaller) LCD and CRT monitors that can reproduce 1080p, and at reasonable vertical refresh rates. Not sure whether the new Sharp lc-45gd1e can take 1080p - it only has SCARTs + DVI. It sure looks good driven by an HTPC, though. Perhaps it can, but I recall it had some frame rate limitations.

    That wan't my original point, however. When you are producing 1920x1080 pixels in every field, you soon run into video bandwidth limitations with almost anything. Even the best domestic video equipment has a bandwidth of around 120 - 130 MHz, which is probably not enough for a vertical refresh rate of 60 Hz, let alone 72 or 75 Hz. That will apply to scalers as well as to display.
     
  8. Eddy Boy

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    A lot of people work with sending a 1080i image to the display and at that point scaling down to 720p to give a better result then normal 720p. This was actually done at the Bristol show.

    It would be better once scalers or DVD players just give us the option of 1080p but has of yet its not recognised in the same way as 720p, 1080i or even 480/576p.
     
  9. alwyn

    alwyn
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    I did buy a scaler the Crystalio,but found no improvement on the PQ that I had on my Esoteric UX-1,infact I found it not as good so unless there is something better than the Crystalio I will stay as I am
     
  10. rscott4563

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    As far as I know the Lumagen ProHDP has a video processing bandwidth of 150Mhz and so even full resolution 1080x1920 shouldn't be a problem.

    As far as refresh rates are concerned I wouldn't worry too much about trying to reproduce 1080x1920p at anything above 60Hz, I just don't see the point, but then again maybe I'm just not that sensitive to flicker. I've seen NTSC at 48Hz, 60Hz and 72Hz and Pal at 50Hz and 75Hz and couldn't see any flicker at 48Hz or 50Hz so why bother with 72Hz and 75Hz?? Also with regard to CRT PJ's you wouldn't want to even bother with a higher than needed refresh rate as you'd want to keep the CRT as cool as possible and therefore keep the refresh rate down. People have stated that they have never seen their PJ look as good as when driven at 48Hz with NTSC film material.

    I realise I hadn't mentioned any LCD direct view displays and your right there are a few that can display a true 1080x1920p source, but their size lets them down. I'm not sure about CRT monitors displaying 1080p, would these be from the USA or broadcast studio monitors and what size are we talking about??

    Ryan
     
  11. Welwynnick

    Welwynnick
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    Sony, Dell and SGA make 24" widescreen CRT monitors that can resolve 1920x1200@76Hz. Apparently, they can look very good on the end of an HTPC or scaler. They are over 300MHz bandwidth (with BNCs!). There are a few big, heavy 29" NEC and Mitsubishi monitors in that ballpark, too. I'm sure we will see some reasonably priced plasmas at this level in the near future, too.
     
  12. Welwynnick

    Welwynnick
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    Alwyn, a Crystalio would be difficult to improve on, but there are lots of things that affect picture quality. What display do you have? How did you connect the scaler to the player and the display? Did you get any professional support? Nick
     
  13. rscott4563

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    I think having a 24" or even 29" display showing 1080x1920 is a complete waste of time to be frank, even a 37" plasma would be too small. At any sort of resonable viewing distance i.e 8+ft you would really want a minimum of a 42" display to see the benefit of a Hi-Def source and ideally a front projection display.

    Ryan
     
  14. alwyn

    alwyn
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    Nick,
    The display is pioneer 505xde I connected the Esoteric to the scaler via component and the scaler to the display via dvi to hdmi.As for help ,I could not find any down here in Cornwall. for interest,have you seen the spec. of the Esoteric video wise?
    Thanks for your reply
    alwyn
     
  15. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    The HDLeeza does motion adaptive on 1080i video source and has 2:3 film detection for 1080i too....doesn't have 2:2 for 50Hz sources in HD though.

    Sending 1080i instead of 720P to a display for it to downscale to the panel may look better at times.......but it's VERY rare. Being able to de-interlace a film source to create the full resolution frame is a benefit regardless of whether the display the final signal is going to is 1080P resolution or not. Everyone watching 480P SD plasma's surely can notice the improvements gained by film detection of their 576i sources....just my opinion of course....

    Gordon
     

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