1080 a total waste of time and money?

Just a thought but is this the same group that did an early review of the Optoma HD81 (1080) a couple of months ago and said it was the best PQ they had ever watched and the higher res made a real difference ? As always the best experts are my own eyes
.
AVI

Hello everybody! First of all, thank you for reading the Avs thread regarding our 720/1080 shoot-out in Athens. If I knew it would have received so much attention, I would have posted the results here as well!
Let me clarify that we are not the same Greek group which performed the Optoma HD81 test (they are named avsite). Our forum, www.avclub.gr was formed 6 months ago, and was the successor of the biggest Audio/video forum in Greece (named www.avforum.gr with 5.000 members) which has performed various shoot-outs in the past( HTPC vs high end DVD, 4 720p shootout etc).
We are a group of A/V enthusiasts who take this hobby very seriously. Last year we officially invited Andrea Manuti for 3 days to lecture and discuss with our members and we are planning to do so with many other A/V world class personalities.
Back to the topic, I will happy to answer all questions you may have regarding this shoot-out!
 
Can I ask where you get your equipment from and who sets it up?

Also, is there any chance of doing this again in the future with some equipment which is a little cheaper?

Can you do the test again in the near future with 1080p material?

Superb test, by the way. The results are already causing a big splash at the US forums and here.

I wish there were more independent people willing and able to set up such tests. We've been dictated to by scientists performing unusual experiments in the lab, dealers, manufacturers and magazines (in the dealers & manufacturers pockets) for too long.

It's great to see a real world test with real world enthusiasts.

Cheers.

Steve W
 
Hi Takisot,

Thanks for taking the time to post here too. :)

Another question if you don't mind - with the 1080 HD material (Starship troopers IIRC), how many people went closer than 1.4 to find where there was an obvious difference? It would be interesting to know where the difference is so noticable that it's easliy spotted.

Pausing an image doesn't work as far as I know as it outputs a 540 image, so it always has to be done with a moving image (to some degree) and the extra detail may not be as abvious with motion. You'd think that with over 2 1080 pixels to 1 720 pixel, it should be particularly noticable on background images. It certainly is when going from SD to even 720 HD and the increase in pixels is about the same.

Gary
 
Let me clarify that we are not the same Greek group which performed the Optoma HD81 test (they are named avsite). Our forum, www.avclub.gr was formed 6 months ago, and was the successor of the biggest Audio/video forum in Greece (named www.avforum.gr with 5.000 members) which has performed various shoot-outs in the past( HTPC vs high end DVD, 4 720p shootout etc).


Takisot

Thanks for clearing that up and welcome. Maybe we can do some exchange visits :devil:

AVI
 
Hi Steve! Let me start by answering your questions:

Can I ask where you get your equipment from and who sets it up?

The Marantz projectors were supplied by the official Greek Marantz distributor Adamco SA. The HTPCs belonged to me and another forum member. I used to be the HTPC moderator so I am verry familiar with them. They were setup with the help of maybe the best ISF calibrator in Greece, Manolis Kastrounis

Also, is there any chance of doing this again in the future with some equipment which is a little cheaper?
We are planning to do so, when the new BenQ W10000 arrives

Can you do the test again in the near future with 1080p material?
In the next test, we really hope to have 2 BR players or HD-DVD players. Of course in order to feed the projectors with 1080p signal, they must accept such signal. I know that today the BenQ 8720 and other projectors do not accept 1080p signal, just 1080i (maybe they can enable it with a firmware upgrade)
 
Hello Gary! Glad to have some questions from someone as knowledgeable as you!

Hi Takisot,

Thanks for taking the time to post here too. :)

Another question if you don't mind - with the 1080 HD material (Starship troopers IIRC), how many people went closer than 1.4 to find where there was an obvious difference? It would be interesting to know where the difference is so noticable that it's easliy spotted.

I recall at least 15-20 people approaching the screen at 1 meter to see the pixel structure. Many commented that they could see the resolution difference at 3 meters.

Pausing an image doesn't work as far as I know as it outputs a 540 image, so it always has to be done with a moving image (to some degree) and the extra detail may not be as abvious with motion.

I agree, that is why we never paused the picture.
You'd think that with over 2 1080 pixels to 1 720 pixel, it should be particularly noticable on background images. It certainly is when going from SD to even 720 HD and the increase in pixels is about the same.

To be honest, I was expecting to see bigger differences between the two panels, but from the 4 meters I was standing for 3 hours I was unable to detect more detail to any of them. Some reported that they did but not easily (and after some time, everyboby knew who was the 1080 unit)

Gary
 
Takisot

Thanks for clearing that up and welcome. Maybe we can do some exchange visits :devil:

AVI

Thanks for the welcome! We could certainly do that! :thumbsup:
 
Hi Takisot,

Many thanks for taking the time to reply here. :)

Ok, so as we know, we need to sit less than 2 x screen width before the eye can begin to resolve 1080, but at that distance, it's only just resolvable, so very hard to distinguish between that and 720 (all else being equal). The closer we get the more obvious the differences become, but it's not until we're at around 1 x screen width that it is easily noticable judging by those who were present at the test.

By that time, screendoor on a 720 DLP display will have become obvious so that's where 1080 has an advantage there regardless of the resolution being sent to it. The same probably can't be said for LCoS/SXRD/DILA displays though.

Would it be easy to set up a test between two Sony Pearls that had similar amounts of MC and feed them both the same 1080p content from HTPCs, only have one send it as 720p (using HTPCs might still be the best way to do this to equalise the scaling involved)? I think that would equalise everything except the resolution being sent. I'm not sure how good a test that would be, but it may equalise everything and remove the screendoor issue that a 720 DLP display has and leave us with just the source material.

There are probably flaws with that idea (the main one being that no 720 display was present), but it was just an idea to try and remove as many variations from the test.

Gary
 
Would it be easy to set up a test between two Sony Pearls that had similar amounts of MC and feed them both the same 1080p content from HTPCs, only have one send it as 720p (using HTPCs might still be the best way to do this to equalise the scaling involved)? I think that would equalise everything except the resolution being sent. I'm not sure how good a test that would be, but it may equalise everything and remove the screendoor issue that a 720 DLP display has and leave us with just the source material.

Gary


I did a comparison using the Pearl and HD DVD source via a Lumagen. I used 1080i to the Luma and then switched the Luma between 720p and 1080p output both at 60hz. Sitting approx 3m from a 92" diag screen I see a noticeable difference. Interestingly the difference is more pronounced going back to 720p. The 1080p image has more clarity and depth particulary in background detail and texture. I've come to expect this level of PQ and I miss it when using other sources. However, I think the brain adjusts quickly and without the comparison I would rave about the 720p image.;)

I'm not too sure if having two Pearls side by side would really work as with the Greek test given they are both native 1080. It may highlight the quality or not of the VP at the different res.

AVI
 
I thought two identical HTPCs might help, but of course one would be scaling to 720 and the other wouldn't be with 1080 material. Tricky. :)

Gary
 
Would it be easy to set up a test between two Sony Pearls that had similar amounts of MC and feed them both the same 1080p content from HTPCs, only have one send it as 720p (using HTPCs might still be the best way to do this to equalise the scaling involved)? I think that would equalise everything except the resolution being sent. I'm not sure how good a test that would be, but it may equalise everything and remove the screendoor issue that a 720 DLP display has and leave us with just the source material.

There are probably flaws with that idea (the main one being that no 720 display was present), but it was just an idea to try and remove as many variations from the test.

Gary

Gary this is an interesting idea but it imports many new variables and I am not really sure if it could give accurate results:
-first of all, as you said it is the missconvergence issue: I have seen Pearls with great difference in that respect.
-then it is the 1:1 pixel mapping issue. If it is not present for one of the units (the one fed with 720p) then we are loosing a lot of detail.
-also the optics: The pearls have good but not excellent lenses as the Marantz projectors.
-finnaly it is the SXRD smooth look, that, in my eyes, tend to slightly blur the HD content compared to a top DLP projector.

Anyway, I wish our test could be dublicated by some of you guys.
 
Well, we have one thing here for sure.

With the resolutuon options that we already have available, we're at least approaching (arguably already beyond) the limit of human perception.

1080 lines? Let's increase that to 1440, or 2160, and it'll be better. Right? WRONG! If manufacturers want us to spend more money, they really have to do better than just increasing the number on everything.

Steve W
 
A 1080P film through a 1080P PJ is going to look much better than a 720P PJ.
A 720 display will lose detail in the 1080 feed as the film is downscaled to 720. this is obvious and i am supprised that people argue 720 is as good.
Do a proper test and come back to us.

1080p bluray/hddvd
1080p/720p same technolegy PJ's

Test the above at 1.5 times viewing distance and see the facts.
i'm sure also that 1080p pj's would allow a viewing distance of 1.2 screens width and retain quality that a 720pj couldent match.
 
Thank you for the instructions mate. Now, how come we did not think of that....:suicide:
 
A 1080P film through a 1080P PJ is going to look much better than a 720P PJ.
A 720 display will lose detail in the 1080 feed as the film is downscaled to 720. this is obvious and i am supprised that people argue 720 is as good.
Do a proper test and come back to us.

1080p bluray/hddvd
1080p/720p same technolegy PJ's

Test the above at 1.5 times viewing distance and see the facts.
i'm sure also that 1080p pj's would allow a viewing distance of 1.2 screens width and retain quality that a 720pj couldent match.


True, but the further you come away from the screen the less you will percieve the increased resolution.
even then the difference is not huge, at least not as much as marketing types might want one to think.

@ 6ft from the screen 1080p res is amazing, past 13ft the wow factor does start to drop over 720p. but i would prefer the 1080p based display as at least i know it is fully resolving al the lines of information availble, but its just not essential if you sit a fair distance from the screen. (or at least get a bigger screen )

P.S
Takisot is not exactly known to be an amateur when it comes to front projection.
 
mjw - Takisot did exactly as you suggest, and the resolution difference wasn't as apparent at 1.4 x screen width, so 1.5 would not tell us anything. You need to be nearer to 1 x before the difference starts to look obvious.

Gary
 

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