1080 a total waste of time and money?

[Pecker]

Maybe not quite, but pretty close.

I find this absolutely stunning.

In Athens over the weekend a group of 35 A/V enthusiasts from the Greek A/V forums got together. They checked out two almost identical projectors - identical apart from the fact that one was 720 and the other 1080.

The screen was 130 inches (just under 11 feet) diagonal, and viewing was from 4 meters (that's 12 or 13 feet). In other words, a viewing distance of just slightly more than the screen diagonal - far closer than most of us sit.

The comparison was split screen and from the same source.

The result?

"The majority of the people present felt that from a distance of 4 meters and beyond from the 130’ screen, the resolution difference between the two projectors was from minimal to insignificant!"

That's not one person. It's not a test in a dodgy set up (both PJs were D65 calibrated). It's not 'Joe Public'. That's 35 A/V enthusiasts.

Apart from people who sit on top of their screens, is there any real need for 1080-lined projectors?

Link:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=767929&page=1&pp=30

BTW, given the relative sost of the SIM 3-chip 720p projector (slightly over £10,000) and their upcoming 1080p 3-chipper (c.£30,000?) I think this might just have saved some people a few bob.

Steve W

 

[AngelEyes]

Interesting, I am certainly convinced of this as far as Plasmas are concerned (at my viewing distance at least) but really expected a large screen to be more noticable.

I haven't read the original post but what was the source material, decent 1080p or lower?

Thanks

Adam

 

[Phill1978]

off topic and of tangent but... thats like saying humans eyes are equivelent 10 mega pixels but tests prove you only need 5mega pixel eyes would you want to lose out ? if its there for the taking then why not have the best, it wont end there proper 3D displays in the future require the res cutting by x4 due to the same screens layered and spread (or so i have read) if you want proper realtime real life images in 3D you need mega high res to divide the image up yet still retain definition why is this important ???? well for now it isnt but if your going to go down the path of no progression you will in future limit yourself and hit a brick wall.. PS3 games support 1080p the ps4 will be developed so that majority of games can run in this res meaning the hardware is developing to keep with display technology if they dont all push forward we will be stuck with the respectivley crap graphics x360 and ps3 do now in 100 years time.

...........

the question of a 80-130" screen there may be no real diffo and i certainley wont lose sleep over the current choice its 720p all the way its here and now and compared to other display technologys what other method can give you a 120" screen in hi-def for £900

however what about people with much larger installs ? your viewing this conclusion from your own perspective of a home install yet think about how many rich or enthusiasts are now sorting out mega sized displays.


no point in it under a certain size but when its same price as 720p in 1yr you may aswell have it

 

[Pecker]

I don't really care too much whether the science agrees or disagrees with the test - I've always been more interested in what people see than what they're told they can/can't see. The science is only interesting/useful to me if it explains the real world, not if it disagrees with it (this suggests that the science is flawed).

Screen sizes are getting bigger but, as they do, people are sitting further away.

The test was done at a distance only slightly greater than the screen diagonal. I think most of us would actually feel uncomfortable sitting closer than this, even with a massive screen.

When I go to the cinema I generally like to sit a way back from the screen; probably further back than the screen diagonal. If I sit closer I tend to miss bits happening at the edges of the screen, unless I whip my head from side-to-side.

The source material was:

- HD VIDEO: BenQ demo, Epson Demo, Shakira “Tortura” mtv video clip, Samsung Demo, (all at 1920Χ1080i)
- HD FILM: Starship Troopers (1920Χ1080i)
- SD FILM: SW III, Chronicles of ridick, Sin City, Alexander, Van Helsing (all 720X576)

Nonetheless, I agree that, if 1080p becomes as cheap as 720p, or as close as makes no difference, you might as well have it.

Steve W

 

[cyberheater]

I've been banging on about this for months since this years cedia show where I saw 720p demo'd next to 1080p. I couldn't tell the difference in resolution nor could the folks I was with.

And at normal seating distances, I would say no one is going to be able to tell the difference in a blind test.

Colour accuracy, contrast, black level all have a much bigger influence on image quality then resolution does when you get to 720p or beyond.

 

[Penfold73]

I agree completely, the difference in resolution between 720p and 1080p projectors is negligible for normal viewing distances. The aspects mentioned by cyberheater will make a much more significant difference.

 

[KelvinS1965]

I've been reviewing my plans for 1080 because I wonder whether I'm sitting close enough/have a big enough screen. I was planing to get a 46" LCD 1080p TV and a 1080p projector. Then I thought I'd get a 720/768 40-46" TV and save the 1080 stuff for my future projector.

Now I'm wondering if I might as well save the money and just get a 720p projector and get some better speakers or whatever. I sit approx 3.5 metres from the screen and from that distance my stop gap 32" 768p TV doesn't really look any better on HD than on Freeview. I have found that I have to move very close to the screen to start seeing an appreachable difference.....so maybe I'm not picky enough (that would be a first!!!) and I can save some money. Maybe I don't need to wait to see how much the Panny AE1000 will actually sell for. I'll be over 1.5 x screen width away if I go for a 2 metre wide screen, plus I 've noticed that most Blueray and HD DVD discs are in 2.35:1 format, so the image is even smaller with the black bars.

Sorry for the ramble...it's been a long tedious day.

 

[Pecker]

Now I'm wondering if I might as well save the money and just get a 720p projector and get some better speakers or whatever.

Or buy a better quality 720p projector.

This is one test, and I'd like to see it repeated. 35 A/V enthusiasts is great, but they were all at the same test. Nonetheless, until we see it tried again, this is the definitive argument.

BTW, what impressed me about this test most of all is that it was a blind test carried out on A/V enthusiasts, by A/V enthusiasts, not a demo set up by a retailer. No offence to any retailers, it's just that they have a vested interest in selling "new, improved" technology, whilst enthusiasts only have interest in PQ.

Steve W

 

[gandley]

I think the answer is obvious, if you dont sit close to the screen, or have a very big screen 1080p is not essential, BUT newer technology will arrive with 1080p, things like 6x colour wheels, the RS1 with its much higher native contrast. One should not buy just because its 1080p but consider the whole package, that would be more wise but dont be surprised if 1080p based equipment is loaded with more advanced software and hardware, which if it is makes the 1080p upgrade essential if you are after the best.

 

[scoobysti]

I think it is the same when you compare 576P to 720P, not really much difference, it would be interesting to see 576P against a 1080P picture, that would put the cat amongst the pidgeons
all that money wasted on upgrade-itous
in the real world all these advancements are pretty small, but the wheels of consumerism have to keep turning

 

[samhain]

I think it is the same when you compare 576P to 720P, not really much difference, it would be interesting to see 576P against a 1080P picture, that would put the cat amongst the pidgeons
all that money wasted on upgrade-itous
in the real world all these advancements are pretty small, but the wheels of consumerism have to keep turning

I notice a big difference between these two, maybe just my eyes though

 

[Tommy Angelo]

The source material was:

- HD VIDEO: BenQ demo, Epson Demo, Shakira “Tortura” mtv video clip, Samsung Demo, (all at 1920Χ1080i)
- HD FILM: Starship Troopers (1920Χ1080i)
- SD FILM: SW III, Chronicles of ridick, Sin City, Alexander, Van Helsing (all 720X576)
Steve W

There was no 1080p material, I wonder if the difference between a 720 and 1080 line projector is less obvious with 1080i than with 1080p.

They dont seem to have used the best source material available. Why not do this test with a decent HD-DVD or Blu-Ray disc.

 

[NicolasB]

Possibly relevant:

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=409129

 

[Peter Parker]

There was no 1080p material, I wonder if the difference between a 720 and 1080 line projector is less obvious with 1080i than with 1080p.

I was wondering the same thing as John Kotches mentions this twice over on avs, so it must have some bearing on the image resolution.

The posted pictures were all around 800 x 533, so I doubt anyone can really see the differences since the image can't capture the original resolution of either projector.

Gary.

 

[AngelEyes]

Possibly relevant:

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=409129

And a good read to boot

This discussion was the main reason for me getting a 'better' 1024x768 Plasma rather than 1080p for the sake of it. Thank you NicolasB

 

[calibos]

Tis funny this thread came up because I was just using the whole 1080P/720PJ debate to illustrate a point in the Xbox 360 HD-DVD add-on thread.

ie, a lot of the HD-DVD 360 drive buyers were saying how they were underwhelmed and couldn't see much difference between HD-DVD and normal DVD on their screens. I explained how IMHO 720P was almost an imperceptable improvement at below 42inches but above the HD formats were worth the investment and how similarily, differences between 720P and 1080P PJ's with 1080P source material were imperceptable up until about 120 inches. Its amazing that this test seems to indicate the lowest limit for worthwhile 1080P is 130in+.

Now I have never seen a 1080P PJ in action or been able to do a comparison but in my eyes it stood to reason that the same screen size to viewing distance ratio 720P perception rules would also apply when scaled up to 1080P and projector screen sizes.

 

[Tony Hoyle]

You're making the same mistake many others do and making a statement without all the data (this is mentioned frequently in the linked thread).

720p may be an imperceptible improvement at 42", say, 12 feet, but at 3 feet it's going to be a big improvement. Without distance the statement doesn't have much meaning. People often say they can see a big difference at 26" - then go on to say it's in a small bedroom (and they can't be more than 2-3 feet from it).

At 7 feet I can see the difference at 37". It's not huge, but it's there. At 92" at the same distance it's obvious (but SD isn't bad either because the AE900's scaler is quite good).

 

[calibos]

You're making the same mistake many others do and making a statement without all the data (this is mentioned frequently in the linked thread).

720p may be an imperceptible improvement at 42", say, 12 feet, but at 3 feet it's going to be a big improvement. Without distance the statement doesn't have much meaning. People often say they can see a big difference at 26" - then go on to say it's in a small bedroom (and they can't be more than 2-3 feet from it).

At 7 feet I can see the difference at 37". It's not huge, but it's there. At 92" at the same distance it's obvious (but SD isn't bad either because the AE900's scaler is quite good).

Inadvertently left out viewing distance in the first part of my post but kinda alluded to it in the second part

.....it stood to reason that the same screen size to viewing distance ratio 720P perception rules would also apply when scaled up to 1080P and projector screen sizes.

I can see why you would think I was making the same mistake as others going on what I wrote here though. You'll see from my post on the HD-DVD thread Here. that I do in fact realise the sitting closer to a small screen does show a more marked difference.

 

[Pecker]

I was wondering the same thing as John Kotches mentions this twice over on avs, so it must have some bearing on the image resolution.

The posted pictures were all around 800 x 533, so I doubt anyone can really see the differences since the image can't capture the original resolution of either projector.

Gary.

I agree that the pictures are fun, but not too important.

Far more important to me are the views of the 35 A/V enthusiasts present, none of whom saw any significant improvement.

Steve W

 

[Peter Parker]

Far more important to me are the views of the 35 A/V enthusiasts present, none of whom saw any significant improvement.

Steve W

Far more important to me, would be what I could see with my own eyes.

Even if you can't distinguish the extra detail 1080 will give you, you will see less screendoor and have the ability to sit closer, as well as have a smoother image. I've seen that with with my own eyes at least.

Gary

 

[JaniH]

Far more important to me, would be what I could see with my own eyes.

Even if you can't distinguish the extra detail 1080 will give you, you will see less screendoor and have the ability to sit closer, as well as have a smoother image. I've seen that with with my own eyes at least.

My thoughts exactly! I wouldn't purchase any 720p projector for my personal use due to SDE (except the Panasonic models which on the other hand have other issues). Even 720p DLPs have way too visible screendoor up to distances of 2x screen width.

 

[Pecker]

Far more important to me, would be what I could see with my own eyes.

I can only agree with that. If I'd seen a difference with my own eyes, I wouldn't care what 35 others had seen.

However, if I'd not had someone set up a blind test, I'd have to listen to the 35, particularly given the independent nature of the test.

I wouldn't trust a test set up by a dealer, who'd potentially have his own agenda.

Steve W

 

[Pecker]

Even if you can't distinguish the extra detail 1080 will give you, you will see less screendoor and have the ability to sit closer, as well as have a smoother image.

No-one from the 35 people at the test appears to have noticed screendoor. If I'd have been there, that's one of the first couple of things I'd have been looking for. It's absolutely inconceivable that none of the 35 people present looked for it. If they'd noticed it, it's inconceivable that they wouldn't have pointed it out to the others, if they felt they'd forgotten to look for it.

Alternately, maybe it was there but they didn't notice it because they weren't looking for it, much like anyone who's trying to enjoy a film (rather than studying only the PQ) wouldn't notice it.

Either way, screendoor in this instance was clearly not an issue anyone thought to be worth mentioning.

As for sitting closer to the screen, the viewing distance was 4 meters on a 103 inch screen. 4 meters is 157 inches. That's a ratio of approximately 1:1.5 (a little larger than I first thought).

However, I doubt very much that anyone would sit too much closer than that - maybe a little, but not a great deal. If you get too close to a picture you miss what's going on at the edges of the screen, as it's no longer in your direct line of sight, and only in your periferal vision.

Steve W

 

[Peter Parker]

A bit of copy and paste from my reply over on avs:

Screendoor and image smoothness are visible differences, and I've seen those differences with 1080 projectors vs 720 projectors in the same room with the same screen size and seating distance (image brightness wasn't equalised though), yet nobody seems to have mentioned that in the test.

I sit at 1.5 x screen width and even with an anamorphic lens that's at the limits of screendoor visability for me (720 pj), so a higher res display is one of the factors I will be needing as part of my next upgrade. I also intend on sitting closer. At a THX cinema 1.5 is the recommended seating distance, and in some cases that is the back row of the theater (so most people will be sitting closer).

As has already been said (by Person99 on avs), if you're coming form CRT then sitting closer may already be part of their viewing experience, so sitting further away would be considered a downgrade for them.

The screen size was diagonal wasn't it? If so, the seating distance was more like 1.4. They didn't say if everyone who was at the back moved to the front so they could all see the same content from the closest viewing position.

Gary

 

[Oakleyspatz]

There was no 1080p material, I wonder if the difference between a 720 and 1080 line projector is less obvious with 1080i than with 1080p.

They dont seem to have used the best source material available. Why not do this test with a decent HD-DVD or Blu-Ray disc.

But surely the display will show it progressively? I mean a 1080 res digital projector will show 1080 lines progressively. Having the source send that information progressively instead comes down to the quality of the de-interlacer.
Of course the 720p will show it progressively too as it will 1080i. But again it is the display (projector) which does the de-interlacing with a 1080i signal but with a 720p display it will have to scale the image too.

Or am I mistaken?