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100hz is horrible!

Discussion in 'Televisions' started by kev69, Dec 19, 2001.

  1. kev69

    kev69
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    100hz is horrible!
    I currently have a 29" sony 4:3 TV.I am looking to get something bigger as it no longer looks big enough in my new home. Looking at the new tv's in local stores I am appalled by the picture quality, almost every set having a blocky, digital artefact looking picture, which to me seems almost unwatchable. On discussing this with a quite knowledgeable sales assistant he said it was down to the 100hz process and he could hardly see it. Also the benefit of a flicker free picture outweighed the ' lego ' look that only I seem to be able to see.

    Whats going on?, am I the only one who can see this?. We are supposed to be moving towards higher definition, clearer pictures but it looks to me like we have taken a huge step backwards. The quality I am seeing looks nothing better than a VCD, no fine detail, and hopeless with a fast scrolling picture.

    The only sets I saw that didn't display this horrible digital artefacting were the higher end sony models.

    Opinions please

    Kev
     
  2. M.Joshi

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    The new 100Hz sets seem to appear artificial / grainy.

    The higher SONY models use a unique technology called DRC (Digital Reality Creation) which in effect eliminates the block effect and grainyness by digitally increasing the resolution.

    If your budget permits, go for a SONY (Preferably with DRC) as you will find the colour on other t.v's makes will not match the quality of your existing set.
     
  3. kev69

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    Thanks for the advice, so it is the 100hz causing this poor quality? if so why do they bother with it? If this is the current situation with new tv's do you have to spend £1000+ to get an acceptable picture? Some of the sets I looked at cost around £2000 and had the same problem. I just can't believe that this is the currently acceptable picture quality, and that most people don't even notice it.

    Seems to me that the marketing men have run amok with this one, pushing 100hz just because other sets have it, even if the result is pathetic.

    Kev
     
  4. Matt

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    Its worth baring in mind that most TV's in showrooms are not perfoming to their best.
    They rarely used a decent input and can be wired up in bizare ways.
    Recently i was in a tempo store and they had a big display for SONY 4D i think it was, small satilletes and a sub with a very nice 1.5 grand TV and DVD player. This was supposedly a demo of the amazing world of DD et al. But, the sub wasnt wired in, the front sound came from the tv speakers not the satellites and worst of all, a yellow composite lead was used for the video signal. They must of had 2K+ worth of kit, appaling wired up.

    Reminds me of a time in Dixons where they had a Home Cinema in a Box. a couple wanted to demo it so the bloke got out X-Men, nice choice of film, some good demo points. He played the fight scene, which sounded ok, lots of bass, crashes and suchlike, problem was no dialog. He was pressing all the buttons on the controls. It wasnt until i pointed out to him that the un-connected wire to the centre speaker might have been the problem...
     
  5. kev69

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    The biggest problem I see in showrooms is almost every widescreen tv set up in ' short fat ' mode. A friend of mine views his the same way all the time, everytime I go around there I say something like ' cor, she's put on weight ' and he tells me to shut up. It also doesn't seem to bother him that the earth is egg shaped not round.

    Kev
     
  6. IainG

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    I thought the same when I was in Comet. The way these stores set up their TVs are a disgrace. If you can be bothered ask them to hook up a DVD via scart RGB to see how good the picture can be.

    I've been hunting for the last couple of months on a 32inch. Everytime I had decided on the one to buy I would read umpteen bad posts.

    Finally I bought the Philips 32PW9544. It's 100hz with a digital scan. Watching Phantom menace yesterday was awsome the same goes for some digital cable broadcasts. Footie can sometimes be a bit blocky but Philips have various settings which help.

    Cheers
     
  7. Ian J

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    At the risk of sounding boring I would like to once again sing the praises of the JVC AV32WFT1 which is a 50Hz television with a superb picture.

    Ian
     
  8. Ian Cox

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    I have to agree with IanJ, the JVC AV32WFT1 TV is superb and I would thoroughly recommend it. So if you do not want a 100Hz set this 50Hz would be the one that I would go for
     
  9. kev69

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    Thanks again for the advice guys, but why would anybody want a 100hz lego vision set anyway?

    Kev
     
  10. kev69

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    In the past I have bought a few items ( i.e. 21" Tosh for bedroom and a Kenwood AV amp ) mail order, and and saved quite a bit. I am not up to date on mail order outlets ATM, so can you point me in the direction of a few good companies please?

    Kev
     
  11. Nic Rhodes

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    100hz isn't necessarily horrible it just how you implement this feature. Years ago I hated all versions, nowdays some are quite liveable with though I would still like the option to turn it off (not possible on my Toshiba). There are many good version out there, the Sony is just one and not necessarily the best or worst available. Just one that is. Football is a good way of checking the quality.
     
  12. Ian Cox

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  13. Doubledoom

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    I'm on my second 100hz set and would never own a 50hz set again.

    100hz sets are a bit more sensitive to setting up than 50hz sets.

    The high contrast/brightness settings which the showroom sets have look poor on the 100hz sets.

    If you are noticing blocks on the 100hz sets, then there is something wrong with the feed.

    100hz may not be right for everyone but you on a correctly set up television, the picture will be great (providing the source is too).
     
  14. IainG

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  16. LV426

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    This whole 100hz vs 50hz thing keeps cropping up, with responses varying from "its crap, why do they do it" to "it's great, I'd never go back" and all points in between.

    To understand why this is, you have to recognise that it is more than just divided opinion.

    It is a fact that different people have different visual acuity. Some people have what I can only describe as "fast" eyes. These people (you might guess, I'm one) are very sensitive to refresh rate flicker. To me a large, brightly illuminated 50hz picture is almost unbearable, regardless of how sharp or well defined it is. I can see, and am distracted by, its flashing on and off. This is most visible in large bright areas, like, say the sky. So, I find large 50hz TVs uncomfortable to watch.

    Actually, I don't have a 100hz TV. I use an LCD projector for movie viewing. LCD devices (this includes projectors, the odd RPTV with this technology, and the one or two direct view LCD TVs now beginning to appear) do not have ANY visible refresh rate or flicker. I used to have a Sony LCD RPTV and I loved it. It only went when I got the projector, and was replaced by a cheap 24" 50hz TV. This is fine for short-term viewing (mainly because it is small) but I wouldn't enjoy a 2-hour movie on it.

    So, before you dismiss 100hz TVs as unnecessary, you have to evaluate your (and your partner/ family's) visual acuity. Only if all the proposed viewers are fortunate(?) enough to have "slow" eyes, should you dismiss 100hz as unnecessary. For people like me, on a large TV as the primary device, it would be essential - smearing or not.
     
  17. Nic Rhodes

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    Don't for cinemas operate at 48 frames a second, do you find these flicker too much?
     
  18. MartinImber

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    The best 50Hz TVs I have seen are the SOny IDTVs, my KV2DX20 is excellent

    I think the new NX100 is switchable 50/100, definately DRCMF and IDTV
     
  19. kev69

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    Thanks to all for the info.........
    Nigel, are you saying that you are not distracted by the shimmer, the haze, the complete damn legoness of it all with a 100hz set? I can't see anything else when I watch one.

    I can honestly say that I have never noticed the flicker on my 29" Sony, I must have slow eyes. Having said that I can see it straight away on my PC monitor, I set the refresh to 85hz, anything less and I can see the flicker, but I suppose you do sit a lot nearer a pc monitor.

    I'll make my point one last time then I'll let it drop as this isn't going to resolve this issue anyway; this blockiness is distracting from the picture quality, it is a backwards step when we should be getting closer to a high definition picture, it robs all fine detail and destroys a fast moving or scrolling picture.

    I'm going to have to be very carefull selecting a set!

    Kev
     
  20. Mr.D

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    Well don't know about having slow eyes but I can spot a fairly small detail on a single frame playing back at 24fps. I have yet to see a 100Hz/DRC/whatever set that functioned without detriment to the original input material with regard to colour/dynamic range or fine detail.

    Whilst I agree that interlaced video requires treatment for exhibition on larger screens the way that most large screen TVs out there handle it is less than ideal and is the sole reason I have delayed plumping for a TV larger than 32". I'll most likely be buying a projector and feeding it properly deinterlaced and scaled material in the next year but that's another story.

    Someone earlier mentioned not seeing flicker on cinema exhibition correctly pointing out that this effectively displays at 48Hz ( 24fps displayed twice) . Bear in mind this is a frame based system . Interlaced video displayed in fields has exacerbated flicker issues ( although none that bother me at 32" to be honest) .
     
  21. LV426

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    My point, again, is that, if 50hz flicker doesn't affect your viewing experience, then there seems little point in suffering whatever artefacts 100hz processing introduces. However, if it does (and it does for me) it may be better to have artefacts than flicker.

    I've never actually owned a 100hz TV. Precisely because they seem, in general, not to have implemented it very well. But, when I did have a big TV, it was an LCD rear projection, not a CRT device. As such it had no visible refesh rate.

    As for cinemas, then yes, I can see image flicker. But, it is nowhere near as evident as it is on 50hz CRT TVs. There is a MASSIVE difference in the way projected film refreshes over that of a CRT TV.

    On film, the entire frame is illuminated, at once, and stays motionless in the gate on the projector for a brief period of time. Then, the shutter closes, the picture goes entirely black, and the next frame is brought into position. The shutter opens and the process repeats. The proportion of the time when the entire screen is not illuminated is small in relation to the time it is.

    On a CRT the picture is drawn by a scanning electron beam which momentarily illuminates a tiny point on the screen. It then moves on to the next tiny point and illuminates that. As soon as it has moved on, the light from the first point begins to decay. Once the last point on the line is complete, it starts again at the beginning of the next-but-one line and so on until it gets to the bottom. Then it starts again with line 2, 4 and so on.

    So, the duration of the illuminated part of the cycle on any given point on a CRT is a tiny portion of the frame rate, whereas in the cinema is it much, much larger.

    On an LCD device, there is no point in the cycle when a given part of the picture which should be illuminated is not, i.e., there is NO refresh rate flicker on an LCD device.
     
  22. Joe Pineapples

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    On the subject of cheap places to buy from - does anyone know a cheap online shop, who also have a shop/showroom of some sort, where the goods can be collected from in person.

    I have a local dealer, who said that if the competiton met these requirements, then he would match the price, regardless of location (in the U.K)

    cheers

    JP
     
  23. Cinders

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    I have a Sony that has DRC processing. On DVD playback via RGB with DRC100 selected the picture is amazing! You can certainly tell the difference between DRC50 and DRC100!

    However, when using SKY Digital I have the TV set to DRC50 because of the crap ******** low-bandwith transmissions, I can still make out some blocking and pixallation but it's not too bad.

    DRC100 mode just makes the blocking worse by amplifiying the blocking etc, it looks like I'm watching a Video CD! Espcially ITV and ITV2 those are terrible!

    As for geometry problems due to the big size CRT, I had terrible problems on my Sony, had an engineer out and it's now just about perfect.
     
  24. Guest

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    Hi Everyone,

    If you haven't already done so then please take a look at my message

    "What's the point of a flat tube when it causes so many probs. "

    It is kind of related to this thread - so apologies for that.


    Cheers,



    Paul
     
  25. Doubledoom

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    As i said earlier, i am on my second 100hz set and do not see the lego blockiness you mention.

    I do see that on skydigital sometimes but that also appears on my 50hz sets so it shouldn't be confused with the 100hz.

    Everybody that comes into my home comments on how good the picture is on my television. All i suggest is that you view a set that is correctly set-up with a decent feed and then decide for yourself. Don't rely on Comet/Currys to give you the decent picture.

    If you then prefer the 50hz set, at least you have had a more accurate method to make that choice.
     
  26. Kevo

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    The problem when viewing TVs in the High street is......

    They are rarely set up correctly.

    Show a poor analog signal that is being shared by all the other TVs in the shop.

    You normally go right up to it and view it from an abnormal viewing distance.

    And what nobody seems to mention...

    100Hz FLUORESCENT LIGHTING cancelling out any 1000Hz effect on the TV.
     
  27. Dodgey

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    I bought a 100hz w/s 36" set a while ago and sent it straight back. I'm not so sure the 100hz is the main issue. As far as I could tell most of the blockiness and general "computer effect" of the image was down to the processor in the TV trying to stretch or squeeze images to fit the screen. I played all sorts of material, including Anamorphic DVDs and no matter what I did the TV insisted on doing some sort of re-sizing of the picture (the worst is where it bunched up the picture at each end of the screen, so panning shots had to go through a "fish bowl" section at each side of the screen.

    It seems we are not ready for widescreen as no one can make their mind up what size it should be or what to broadcast. I gave up and bought a projector instead, just for films.

    100hz IS pretty essential when a picture goes 36" and larger as you really will notice flicker after a short while.

    One more thing.. strip lights are 50hz? not 100hz?
     
  28. Mr.D

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    standard film projection shows each frame twice : the shutter passes in front ( actually behind ) of the frame to accomplish this.

    LCD being a digitally addressed panel is normally a progressive device . ie the whole panel displays a full frame rather than two consecutive fields. Progressive scanning does not preclude the possibility of percievable refresh flicker. The only thing that does preclude the possibility of percieved refresh flicker is higher refresh rates this is a different phenomena than the progressive/interlace one. A progressively addressed LCD with a lower than desirable refresh rate will exhibit percievable flicker.
     
  29. LV426

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    As far as I can work it out, the way all the LCDs I've seen work is like this. A given pixel is "told" by its driver to be, let's say white. Then, after a time (let's say, 1/50th of a second) it is told, again, what colour to be. Maybe it is still white. During the interval between the first instruction and the second, it doesn't change. In other words, it stays white until it is told to be another colour. It doesn't flash on and off, just changes when it's told to. Hence, there is no visible flicker on an LCD. Whereas both film and CRT do flash on and off. They have to.

    This is supported by the following experiment. Take an NTSC DVD (say) and view it on an LCD device. Refresh rate = 60hz. Then point a PAL TV camera (50hz) at it, and look at the image. No flickering, despite the difference in frame rates on the two devices. Compare with the same experiment done with a CRT TV at 60hz.

    You can also see this effect on the TV when they shoot a scene in a room full of PCs. The LCD monitors don't show any interference flicker, although they will almost certainly not be using 50hz refresh. And, in films, they have to create special 24hz computer images on normal monitors to avoid interference flicker. If they use LCDs, they don't.
     

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