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100hz advice please

Discussion in 'Televisions' started by Biccy, Mar 28, 2005.

  1. Biccy

    Biccy
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    Hi. Bit of a strange query this but hope someone can help. I myself replaced my small TV with a Panny 32PM1 50hz a few months ago & am happy with the set. My query is regarding my Dad & if someone could help me explain something to him! At the moment he has a 32" 50hz Philips which is a pretty good set...he is now looking at new TV's (the Philips 32PW 9509 in particular).

    The thing is he only ever watches normal TV (through a Digifusion digital box) & very, very rarely DVD's. From the research i did when buying a TV (& owning a Tosh 36ZP38 100hz for a few weeks) i got the general feeling that for normal TV footage 50hz is much better, 100hz creates more problems & really only solved the flicker. Admittedly DVD's looked superb on the Tosh (& i guess on many other 100hz tv's).

    As all of his viewing will be broadcast TV ive tried explaing that 100hz, ecspecially with Pixel Plus, is probably going to result in a picture inferior to what he has now. Unfortunately he isnt the type who will go & view/demo TV's in stores like i would, & he has been sold on the written spec's...features such as PP2 & Digital Natural Motion.

    Firstly am i right in what i think? & if so secondly, could anyone maybe reply in a way (even if very brief) that i could show my Dad explaining the 100hz issues because i wouldnt want him to spend £800 odd pound to find the PW9509, or similair 100hz models, wouldnt benefit him in the way that the Philips marketing people say it will. I have tried but am not really technically minded.

    My apologies for anyone who owns this TV as i know it is a nice set when watching DVD's as i demo'd it myself.

    Thanks in advance.
     
  2. billystevo

    billystevo
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    If he only watches normal TV i would say go for a cheaper 50 hrz set, when you get into something like the Phillips you talk about , you need a good bitrate from the channel to get the best out of the set. Having a set with all the bells and whistles does not guarantee a perfect picture all the time because a lot of channels try to get the most out of their bandwidth , lowering the quality to people who have high spec sets.Its like putting 2 star petrol in a Porche. He can enjoy his TV with a 50 hrz, i had a Panny that gave a perfect picture , only flickered when viewing menus.
     
  3. Biccy

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    Thats exactly what i feel with my TV now, its just a good all round pictue, only flickers noticeably on the Sky menus. Its just difficult describe to someone a 100hz picture compared to a good 50hz one unless you've seen it yourself. The problem is trying trying to explain it to someone who wont get to see it until they've parted with their cash! Dont get me wrong, i know the TV he wants is a nice set but i dont think its gunna be what the spec sheet makes out. Im just finding it difficult to explain it & the technology process of the picture procesing & how it can actually degrade the picture to him.
     
  4. GaryB

    GaryB
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    The problem with the 50Hz vs 100Hz thing is that it's very subjective. 100Hz sets were mainly introduced to cure a problem (flicker) that is annoying to some people but doesn't bother others. In fixing the problem, all 100Hz sets have processing artefacts to some degree, smearing on fast movement being the main one. Again, these are annoying to some people but others don't notice them. The only way to really decide which is best for a particular individual is for them to take a look. Personally I'm a 50Hz man as I find the processing artefacts far more noticeable that the 50Hz flicker.
     
  5. Biccy

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    Same here, admittedly im fussy, but the 50hz is definately a more natural looking picture. Do you know, in basic terms, the different process of a 50hz & 100hz picture, it may help me explain why the problems occur. Thanks.
     
  6. GaryB

    GaryB
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    The main cause of the artefacts in 100Hz and other digital sets is a simple lack of processing power. At their most basic level, the way most 100Hz and other digital sets work is to sample the analogue signal and write it into memory. They then read it out twice to generate the 100Hz refresh rate. This write/read process is not instant and it is this processing time that causes the majority of the side effects. Many sets use assorted tricks to enhance the picture and improve motion blur but whether these improve or degrade the picture is something only the individual can decide.
     
  7. EviL AnGeL

    EviL AnGeL
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    As well as 100hz pixel plus can be off putting for a lot of people so there is no point spending extra on something like that if it's going to be turned off. Personally I have 100hz pixel plus and upgraded from an old 50hz and I love it but it's all subjective. I can understand the objection to pixel plus but it seems odd to me why people don't like plain 100hz. I also can't believe that people can't tell the difference. Maybe if you look at at 100hz and then go look at a 50hz but stick them side by side and it's obvious. I don't see any artifacts or anything with normal 100hz only the halo effect sometimes with pixel plus. As with most modern TV's you need a good strong terrestrial signal or Sky with good signal quality.
     
  8. davee b

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    i watch a lot of terrestrial tv and was a bit concerned about the possibility of artefacts when i got my tosh 32pw48 at new year. I have to say there are very few processing artefacts on any channels i watch, maybe the odd smear with digital sky sports but nothing too drastic. I love it and would never go back to 50HZ (i have a panasonic 50 hz as a second set upstairs and there's a big difference in flicker and pq IMO) :thumbsup:
     
  9. Zacabeb

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    I'm very skeptical of 75Hz / 100Hz TVs, and although there are some aspects of it that I like, it's a fact that some very important aspects don't make for very good selling points, and are ignored in favor of things that do. As a result, a TV that claims to increase the resolution may actually digitize and process the incoming signal with less than optimal resolution before artificially trying to increase it.

    The numbers claimed by manufacturers in specifying the "increased resolution" are inaccurate as they usually include the signal outside the actual picture, which boosts the numbers by 23% horizontally and over 8% vertically. That's not even considering the amount of image cropped by overscan and the fact it's interlaced.

    Here's a diagram I made a pair of years ago which describes pretty much what junk is inside a 75Hz / 100Hz TV:

    [​IMG]

    The fundamental problem is this; "picture improvement" does not try to improve on the objective quality, but the subjective quality. A lot of the inherent quality of the picture may actually go to waste. What you're getting is an image that has become softened in processing and then artificially sharpened to make up for it.

    There are two positives of 75Hz / 100Hz aside the flicker reduction: the first is that the digital processing may help reduce noise in analog off-the-air signals, the second is that in widescreen sets, it can scale letterbox images to fit the screen instead of stretching them. But that's pretty much it. Aside from that, it's a tradeoff.
     
  10. Biccy

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    Thanks for the latest replies, just got back after looking in JL at some sets (including the PW9509)...im still not convinced with 100hz, & they seem pretty well set up there with the digital boxes. Am i right in thinking then that the 50hz TV's just show the picture as its broadcast, no processing etc...
     
  11. GaryB

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    The vast majority of them, yes. A few do have Noise Reduction and other minor facilities but most have an entirely analogue signal path. These days 50Hz sets are generally built relatively cheaply as they are perceived as being bottom of the range so that also adds to the lack of picture processing trickery in the sets. Some people (me included) would say that is a good thing.
     
  12. system11

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    I agree - there should always be an option to turn the processing off. It's seeming hard to find a decent big TV that is any good with consoles, since they really do look much better running at 50 or 60hz. Just try spinning the camera on a 60fps game and comparing to an older 'dumb' TV - much smoother.... The Sony I just returned had a full 1 second lag between source input and image on screen, again useless.

    I'm getting so annoyed with it that if the two Toshibas I'm checking out next week exhibit this kind of irritation, I'm just going to stick with my old 4:3!
     
  13. Niburu

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    I must admit that I was not happy when I first got my Philips 32PW9308 TV, as 100htz seemed to create problem after problem. Now that I have had it a while and it is set up correctly, I am still amazed at the clarity and vividness of this set.
    I was unable to buy a 50htz because I am sensitive to flicker and if I hadn't of been, I suppose I would never have gone for the 100htz model. There are still issues with Freeview sometimes and the whole `dirty screen` business can be annoying sometimes but the quality of image with DVD's and my Gamecube more than make up for it. In picture sharpness, detail and quality, it beats my friends 32" Panasonic 50htz TV!
     
  14. Biccy

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    Again thanks for replies, at least it confirms my thoughts that maybe a 50hz will be better for someone who just watches broadcast TV. Niburu, have you owned a 50hz with Freeview, as this is what my Dad has, & if so how do you compare the 9308's picture against a 50hz set?
     
  15. Niburu

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    jpriches.

    Yes, before I got the new TV, I ran freeview on my old 50htz TV for a while. The 50htz TV did not pick up as many imperfections from freeview and watching football was a bit smoother when the camera was panning. In all, the old TV was less fussy with freeview but the new one is better with the overall quality of image.
     
  16. Biccy

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    thanks niburu. dont want to put you in awkward position but would you recommend the 9308 as an upgrade to an already 32" 50hz flatscreen philips tv, as a purely freeview viewed TV....(no dvd's...or very rarely).
     
  17. Niburu

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    Hi there.

    To be quite honest, no. There are no real benefits from Freeview and the imperfections created by 100htz will probably make you wish you still had the 50htz TV.
    I would recommend the 9308 to someone who has a smaller TV who wants to upgrade to something that will impress on DVD's mainly, not to replace an already pretty decent TV.
     
  18. Biccy

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    OK thanks Niburu, & to all others for your replies. Its given me some good info to go on.
     
  19. Skiddins

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    What about something like the Toshiba 32ZP48P.

    It mentions all these picture 'systems' etc. that are obviously advertised as enhancements.

    Can any of them be turned off etc. or will I see artifacting etc.
    I use a DVD player, Pace Twin Freeview box and a PS2 through my current TV, which due to a fall is being replaced under insurance.

    I'll try to have a look tomorrow at the shops but in the meantime.......

    Are there any 50Hz TV's that have 3 SCART inputs, or are there any 100Hz TV's where the refresh can be taken back down to 50Hz?

    THanks
    Skiddins
     
  20. Skiddins

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    What about something like the Toshiba 32ZP48P.

    It mentions all these picture 'systems' etc. that are obviously advertised as enhancements.

    Can any of them be turned off etc. or will I see artifacting etc.
    I use a DVD player, Pace Twin Freeview box and a PS2 through my current TV, which due to a fall is being replaced under insurance.

    I'll try to have a look tomorrow at the shops but in the meantime.......

    Are there any 50Hz TV's that have 3 SCART inputs, or are there any 100Hz TV's where the refresh can be taken back down to 50Hz?

    THanks
    Skiddins
     
  21. red16v

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    Hi, I have the Toshiba 32ZP48 and watch tv only through our Digifusion PVR. The results are superb and I have absolutely no hesitation in recommending this combination. The 'proof of any pudding' is to try and see the combination you would like in the rertailers shop but obviously this can be very tricky if not impossible. Regards, yt.
     
  22. chedmaster

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    stick the tosh in progressive mode and you solve all problems. no 100hz rubbish. no 50hz flicker. perfection. get it.
     
  23. red16v

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    Hi, the Toshiba 32ZP48 is 100Hz in ALL modes. Personally we don't operate it in the progressive scan mode - we leave it permanently in the 'natural' scan mode, we find it superb no matter what the source material is, ie sports, studio pixs etc. Regards, yt
     
  24. chedmaster

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    no its not red16v, its 50hz (or 60hz for ntsc) in progressive scan mode, although it paints the same amount of lines as 100hz mode. 100hz is a joke, the source is 50hz, doubling it makes no difference to the quality and to me only introduces flicker. Anyone wondering about progressive scan because its 50hz, it doesnt flicker, the reason standard tv's supposedly flicker is because they are interlaced (as is 100hz, just faster). Progressive scan is the way it should be!
     

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