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1 amp or 2?

Discussion in 'Hi-Fi Stereo Systems & Separates' started by mobily, Jan 10, 2004.

  1. mobily

    mobily
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    I have recently become extremely interested in the whole area of seperates and home cinema even though I still haven't upgraded to that yet.

    I am wondering whether it is better to have 2 amps: 1 for your home cinema and 1 for your music pleasure. Or is it just as good to have the 1 amp and have a strong pair of front speakers so that your front room isn't crowded with speakers and boxes?

    the purists view is most likely that seperating music listening from film watching is best and therefore that would total 2 amps and 8 speakers, or 10 if you are lucky enough to have 7.1. ;)

    I am just interested to know peoples experiences and opinions on this.

    Cheers
     
  2. ditton15

    ditton15
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    this is well trodden path. I suggest that you search previous threads for 'stereo'. perhaps there should be a sticky like that for dacs.

    the short answer is 'yes', or so a lot of us think, myself included. a stereo amp does only that, and is geared to music amplification; the AVamp does digital decoding as well as amplification for 5.1 (or more) channels. there is good value in s/h stereo amps.

    the key is to connect the CDplayer direct to the stereo amp and then to the main two (usually front) speakers & then use the pre-outs from AVamps to use the same two main (stereo for music) speakers for AV purposes.

    hth
     
  3. overkill

    overkill
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    I would agree with Ditton. Pure Stereo amps tend to have less going on inside (hence lower RF and distortion problems)and therefore offer, until you get to silly prices, (and even then marques like Audio Research, Krell, etc stereo amps offer THE best sound you can get) better overall sound quality. Thus a two system or two amp solution works best.

    As Ditton says the lack of quality from stereo sources using an AV amp is a common complaint here.
     
  4. newbie265

    newbie265
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    I was going to ask nearly the same question except I was thinking of a pre amp into the suround amp and a cd player?
     
  5. ditton15

    ditton15
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    Not exactly sure what you had in mind as the question, but I'll interpret for the sake of answering (a bit like exam questions really - and I do not have a PhD in this topic so I'm digesting what I've learnt from others):

    * the simplest CD stereo set up is:

    integrated CDplayer -> integrated stereoamp -> L/R speakers

    * it is sometimes thought desirable to unpack the integrated, for both the CDplay and the amplification. (It is also argued by some that there is benefit in having dedicated power supplies - but that is top-end talk IMHO.)

    * CDplay: cdplayers can be integrated or transport+dac, where the dac is the digital analogue converter. one argument, which I've accepted and acted upon, is that the capture of the digital data from the CD (the transport) should be separated from the decoding of this data into sonic information (the dac), ie that transport+dac can offer best 'sound-per-pound' (SPP) - see other threads ..

    * amplification: the integrated amp does two things. One is pre-amplification, which can be regarded as being about volume control (I'll leave it to the techies to add the volts), and the other is about pure power amplification to drive the speakers. Hence there are some arguments around that this too is best kepy separate from the pure power functions of the dedicated power amps.

    * all separates require interconnects which not only add expense but also the opportunity for noise, and this added noise & expense need to be taken into consideration when considering SPP.

    * the AV surround amp is a very integrated beast: it does all of the above bar the capture of the digital data from the transport, and does this with 5.1 in mind rather than stereo.

    - The question then is what does an integrated AVamp do well and what not so well when compared with dedicated stereo kit. From what I have read of the comments of others (* and have some upgrade experience to draw upon), the short answer is avoid the AVamp for stereo music replay. The pre-out function of the AVamp, which clearly does use the pre-amp part of the AVamp is only used for AV purposes - ie replaying audio from the DVD, and is not part of the chain for CDreplay.

    btw, I included my sig. below to illustrate the top-end(ish) CDreplay interconnected with the mid-end DVD replay (the only quirkyness being my placement of my Main HiFi speakers).

    Upgrade history: I reached the CDplay outcome by previously having had two integrated CDplayers and two transport/dac combos. One of the integrateds (an older Yamaha) is doing time to good effect in second system in kitchen/dining room; the other (more recent mid-end Arcam) is with student daughter; and I'm in the process of sellling the Meridian combos (200/203 & 602/606). The latter combos, tho older, are/were stereophile favourites and offered better sound, and certainly better 'SPP' than the integrateds. Also, I initially bought an entry-level AVamp (Denon AVR1602) with no pre-outs, so I upgraded to the AVR2802, which does.

    hth
     
  6. overkill

    overkill
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    Apart from the Ditton 15's?:D

    Still not convinced on the spp for CD replay either............ ;) Although the more expensive things become the more that theory comes into it's own. However, at the lower end, and this comes from selling kit on d2d basis as well as listening to it, integrateds are still the better bet spp *ducks to avoid low flying objects(tions) from CJ*:D . Having said that i've heard £1000 Transport /DAC combos that failed to impress.....

    But i digress............

    With the pre / power splitting it's because the line stages are quite sensitive and prone to interference which is why when buying integrateds it's worth checking the tech spec's to see how they fair distortion wise. The power amp really just needs to a have a good, clean PSU and quality components to drive the speakers. However the quality of said components can mean the difference between a highly detailed sound, quality of soundstage etc, & naff sound, hence they can go to orbital price points!!!

    You will notice that many reviewers and hi-fi purists (note did not put the two togther!) encourage using amplification that uses as few signal paths as possible, as the more circuits involved, the greater the chance of information loss and distortion becoming involved. So, from the very nature of the beast AV amps are at a disadvantage as they perform a multiple of functions, each potentialy degrading the signal path. Thus the very best AV amps cost a kings ransom as they try to keep degradation down to a minimal amount. For example, having heard the Audio Research AV amps (at a show i hasten to add!) they succeed admirably! But, at a phenomenal cost!! :eek:

    Hope that helps?
     
  7. suzywong

    suzywong
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    I think that Ditton has summed up very well, and this was the situation my wife & I found ourselves in when she decided we needed a d*** big screen for watching Lord of the Rings!

    See sig below for our two systems. We already had the Linn triamp sytem because we have already had a great love of musical reproduction (I'm sure there's a joke in there somewhere). So, the Linn triamp system is designed for ultra high quality reproduction of stereo CD, radio and LP (yes they still sound as good as CD). Very minimalist, no digital processing, tone controls or suchlike etc etc. result is superp, definition, imaging, bass blah, blah, etc etc.

    We needed a surround system for bangs & slams in the movies, but my brief was "it has to sound (nearly) as good as the Linn, and not compromise the Linn's sound".......

    Oh, and we need to be able to use the 5 metre square living room as....a living room, daughter(s) slump area and cat(s) preening area.

    One option would be to go for a very very expensive Meridian system which would be as good as the Linn but could add surround as well........but we didn't have the £60 grand required.

    A compromise was required. This was to go for active Meridian speakers (power amps in the speaker cabinet), as this would reduce the number of boxes to be accommodated. Also, we have used Meridian's kit for some time so were familiar with it's quality. So by judicious ebaying, and scanning the classifieds and dealer's sales lists for older Meridian kit, we managed to put together the system noted in the sig.

    The upside, superb stereo reproduction, and very good movie/tv sound.

    The downside:

    The two "box intensive" systems coexist in the living room. Count em', and then add some more that I don't include.

    On one wall there are: 6 large-ish speakers (2 isobariks & 4 meridian, inc centre & sub), two Optimum tables for the Linn system, which includes our Meridian CD, and the 50" plasma. This occupys a "space" some 9' across by 5' tall. To say that it "dominates the room" would be something of an undertatement!

    The Pioneer/Meridan AV system then sits on another Optimum rack off to one side. All cables run under the carpet, cut into the underlay.

    Two rear speakers complete the lineup, which therefore totals

    3 equipment racks
    17 assorted electronics boxes (will be 19 when I've built the headpone amp + PSU for the Linn system),
    8 speakers
    plasma screen.

    The room now resembles a hifi dealers demonstration room.
    That this huge mess exists is due to the fact that my wife is as demanding of high quality audio/video as mayself (maybe even more so!). Without wishing to appear sexist or rude to our wives/girlfriens/partners, I think that most women would not tolerate that amount of hardware in their living rooms. I'm lucky, mine does (probably why I married her 20 years ago!).

    So that's our story...is it worth it?

    It works for us, and impresses visitors.......

    Cheers

    Chris & Sue
     
  8. CJROSS

    CJROSS
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    Excellent posts Ditton/Okill.

    Stereo V AV/5.1 (How to combine)

    I was quite an early adopter of DVD-V but the aspect I approached it from was that I wanted the DVD-V video side of the player which blew me away compared to VHS when I first seen it, but crucially it had to be a DVD-V player that was half decent at CD playback as my first criteria has always been Hifi/Stereo andI did not wish to have 2 spinners on my rack, so once the DVD-V player was bought it was being slotted into a hifi system and not a AV/5.1 setup. I was actually very impressed for what the DVD player did in hifi terms, but I had bought it with an eye on hi-rez 24/96Khz DAD DVD-V stereo discs (mainly by Chesky in the US) so I quickly added to the DVD player with a DAC that could use this level of pure PCM data, I have since replaced that DAC with a better unit. Now all this time I have been happy to get the best stereo playback available with the kit I have and TBPH the sonics I hear from my 2 channel stereo system when coping with AV/5.1 DD DVD-V mixes (These are downmixed by my DAC to stereo then onwards to my Amp-2 speakers) is pretty amazing to me, even making DVD-V music films like concerts etc encoded in DD 5.1 surround sound wonderful in hifi terms. That’s just me, I like the sound I can get from DVD-V via 2 speakers and I have not compromised my stereo playback (my main concern all along), If I was approaching AV with one eye on stereo, I would avoid at all costs Int. AV Recievers below £1000 (unless used with pre-outs & a separate stereo amp for front duties) but I have heard very very good stereo playback from AV Pre-amps into separate Power amps, not far off £1500 levels, one system Ive heard that was very good to my ears was an old Cyrus AV Master AV- Pre-amp (also used as the DAC section as well BTW) into a reasonable level Rotel 5 channel PA, this is a system catering for both parties ie stereo & AV 5.1. You can go even further in the AV-Pre-PA scenario with a 2 channel PA for fronts (and stereo duty) of very good quality and a lesser 3 channel PA for surround duties. So that to me makes the best sense and cuts down boxes and cabling worries from pre-outs etc etc on Int. AV Amp to Int. Stereo amps. I think you would get more “bangs per buck” with a AV Pre-PA than say 2 integrateds, sitting on your rack.

    FWIW I would easily live with a Tag AV32R into a £800 5Ch Rotel PA for example stereo from that would be very accpeptable, so it can be done just that people buying Int. AV recievers etc don’t actually think when buying them a lot of the time : “whats important to me – music / films ?”, If its music then your path is pretty chosen. (I would add Im not saying people buying AV Int Amp don’t care about music, but there are better stereo solutions as a few owners of Denon 3800s would testify from what I have seen here in the past)

    So not 1 or 2 amps TBH if you want the best from both worlds AV-Pre into 2-3-5 channel PAs, All IMHO of course dudes.
     
  9. ditton15

    ditton15
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    I should have mentioned that, as the job of the power amp is to drive the speakers, active speakers are another variant of the simple stereo CDP->amp->speakers.

    Note your choice of Meridian 200/230. How long have you had these and how happy are you with them? As noted, altho they are over 10 years old, I thought that were at least the equal of the Arcam CD72T. The Meridian 602/606 were a step up again, as maybe expected - they were about 3 times the price when new, tho I paid less than half as much s/h.

    I hope the questioners are happy with the replies - four differing but complementary viewpoints - all proposing that it is unrealistic to expect good music reproduction from entry & mid priced AV kit - for that turn to the stereo-specfic kit, and IMHO to s/h kit for SPP (I'll leave bang for buck to refer to AV excitement associated with Holywood).

    OK, I do accept that the Celestion Ditton 15s, bought new by me in 1976 for the princely sum of £109.50, are not top-end. So I am auditioning alternatives - see my revisewd sig, above.

    And, yes I would I like a dedicated AV processor, to which I could attach power amps (perhaps as active speakers, but maybe not as my Gallo speakers fit very discretely in my 5m x 5m front lounge) - but do check out the AudioSynthesis Dax Decade (now being replaced by the Dax Discrete) as I doubt that the AV processor would beat it for stereo.

    btw, should I change my nickname if I retire the Dittons? JMLab sounds a bit chemical!
     
  10. overkill

    overkill
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    To be honest it's a tribute to Celestion that the Dittons, built in the mid 70's, have stood the test of digital era front ends. Some of my (tighter!) friends tried to do that with their Wharfdales etc and ended up with shredded drive cones!! :D


    Oh, BTW keep the handle. They were great speakers - in their day! ;)
     
  11. newbie265

    newbie265
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    well i think i understand:eek: what aboubi amping the speakers the so a cd player,amplifier,into the spekers,and a av amp into the speakers as well would that work.By the way i was thinking around 1200 quid for speakers(as i'm told biggest budget should be spent on them 500 to 800 on an av amp and maybe pick up a second hand amp and cd player.
     
  12. suzywong

    suzywong
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    Probably showing it's age these days. The 263 delta-sigma DAC is a great advance on the 203 bitstream DAC (i've got both). Meridian's 602/606 was generally acknowledged to be much superior, so don't sell them (except to me! <grin>), and there have been mixed reactions to the 500 series (508.24, 588 great: 500/566 not so good but 500Mk2 better)

    Anyway the 200/263 is next on the list for upgrade! Hmmm, I've got some 100 series kit, some 200 series and some 500 series....perhaps I should complete the "Meridian Museum of Hampshire" by getting hold of a 602/606!)........

    "Excuse me Darling, there's a man on Ebay who's selling a........."
     
  13. ditton15

    ditton15
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    please re-phrase/simplify the question.

    perhaps after stating:

    1. the kit do you now have & what your total budget for additons & upgrade will be.

    2. the relative importance of 5.1 dvdplay, TVplay, CDplay.

    From your question, I suspect that you have a dvdplayer and a widescreen TV. Is that right?

    Next purchase is an AVamp with 5.1 and Dolby ProLogic 2 (for splitting TV signals into a psudeo 5.1), and with pre-outs (for later use of a stereo amp). I suggest that you cruise the Amp/processor threads for that info and for comments.

    It is true that three front speakers plus two surrounds plus a subwoofer can cost a lot. I suggest you cruise the Speaker threads for that info.

    If CDplay is the most important, then look to spend £250 - £350 for a good s/h CDplayer (most will be integrated but I might just know where you can buy a Meridian 200/203 .... ). And then look to spend about £200 - £300 for a good s/h stereo amp.

    As for speakers for the CDplay, try to plan to get some that sound good for music and can be used in an AV role - typically as the front L/R - ie with a Centre speaker that 'matches'. But again, take that to the Speaker threads.
     
  14. alexs2

    alexs2
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    Interesting to find someone else who's been down a similar route to me,although we've ended up with different results!.....my last system was a triamped Krell/Linn Keltik system,which worked beautifully until we moved to an old timber framed house,where no amount of fiddling with the crossovers could dial out the bass problems...so they went,and were replaced by a Tag/Krell/B&W system,to be used for both music and AV,but keeping my Perpetual Technologies P1A upsampler to improve matters with the TAG's DACs,and I've recently added a pair of Quad 11s(the old valve amps,not the speakers)for a change from the Krells when required.

    I'd say that you can get very good results from suitably good AV processors,fed a decent signal,but the best results in my case still come from bypassing the TAG altogether,and using the P1A/P3A upsampler and DAC via an Audio Synthesis Passive pre,direct into the Krells.....untidy,and inconvenient but the sound is better.
     
  15. ditton15

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    I confess that I do have a 602/606 combo to sell, but that's not me over on e-bay. If you get it at much under £700 you've a bargain. If you dont get that bargain. let me know as I'm open to offers - when I offered it here it I did not get a nibble for the combo. My local dealer is interested but he must make his margain.

    btw, I'm a displaced Hampshire Hog ...
     
  16. ditton15

    ditton15
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    btw, SusieWong, do you happen to have a spare 104 tuner? I'm trying to work out what to do on the tuner side of things - FM or digital, the later using my Dax Decade.
     
  17. alexs2

    alexs2
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    ditton15...lovely DAC,my compliments.....should give the best results possible from DAB,but its still limited by the relatively low bitrate of UK DAB stations,the BBC included,and a good FM based tuner should still sound much better.
    I'm currently looking for a decent FM tuner to replace my current one which has partly died....
     
  18. ditton15

    ditton15
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    Another option is to take the 'radio' from the digital Sky signal, which I am planning to have installed next month. It has an optical out. Trouble is that the Sky+ box will be about 8m away from the Dax Decade, and I'm told that long optical runs are not sensible. Is there a wireless option I wonder? Otherwise I will have to use the Denon and its pre-outs. Not such a good plan.

    So its back to FM (for which I will need to fix up a good aerial) or a make-do with one of those portable DABs.

    Any thoughts?
     
  19. CJROSS

    CJROSS
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    Ditton, take my word for it, if you can possibly do so pipe that signal from your DSat Sky box towards your DAC do it the results are truly stunning especially at 192Kbps that Sky is generally encoded at (sky offers the best digital radio transmission bitrates read the DAB post on this forum), Im actually sending a signal from my Freeview (Nokia 221T) STB towards my DAC which is sited 10m away for digital radio, but I opted for a RCA SPDIF connection on the Nokia for this reason, ie 10m length. There are 10m toslink leads out there BTW but you can get problems with “dropouts” at that length IIRC, hence the majority of optical leads are max 5m, but there are some very cheap 5m Toslink cables out there, if you fancy experimenting with your Sky box (what model is it BTW ?) and the DAX decade. £30 for a 10m Toslink is reasonably cheap IMO as well. Sound quality via your DAC will blow a DAB portable into the weeds.

    http://www.maplin.co.uk/products/module.asp?CartID=040111144517927&moduleno=29343&Products=3 £15 for a 5m toslink optical cable.

    http://www.lektropacks.co.uk/dept.asp?Hash=37&dept_id=205 £20 for a 5m.

    http://www.leadsdirect.f9.co.uk/optical.htm 10m - £30

    http://www.insert-audio.co.uk/ukprice.htm#fibre_optic £63 for a 10m Toslink cable ***

    Or how about try making your own for under £10 :

    http://www.canford.co.uk/commerce/category_2000558_2000029.aspx

    *** When you factor in the cost of a FM ariel installation, the £63 Insert Audio 10m Toslink cable does not seem so expensive IMHO. Digital radio also records wonderfully in digital terms to a CD-R or MD deck BTW.
     
  20. ditton15

    ditton15
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    thanks for the URLs, CJ. I'll investigate. btw, do you think the quality on dab is forever damned?

    Alex, I should have responded to your good words about my Dax Deacde. I see that you too are a fan of AudioSynthesis. I was put onto them by GaryG, and had further endorsement from CharlieW (Slarti.. now on AVT) and NicR (The Beekeeper). I was also taken by their phrase "the ultimate preamplifier is always no preamplifier". The output from the Dax Decade really is excellent - see http://www.audiosynthesis.co.uk/reviews_index.htm
    Anyone interested and prepared to shell out a four figure sum should contact David Heaton <audiosynthesis.salesinfo@ntlworld.com>.

    I then struck lucky and was able to buy a s/h AS modded transport for £200 (!) and this allows the digital signal to be transferred by AS's own Ncode.
    The Transcend/Ncode/DaxDecade combination is designed to eliminate timing inaccuracies. I was using a Meridian 602 transport before and had been very happy with that but the temptation to get the AS combo was just too good to miss. What differences did I notice? - well I'm not a hot assessor, but there was more immediancy and presence, but the effect was not light & day - the 602 is pretty good itself and I must confess that the comparison was with the Ditton 15s in place. Perhaps I should do and A/B with the JMLab Electras.
     
  21. CJROSS

    CJROSS
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    Hey Ditton, don’t know if it will remain the same level as it is forever, but DAB broadcasters have contiunally decreased the bitrates since it introduction (or never increased it to equivalent worldwide levels in reality), one thing is for certain DSat Sky TV/Radio & Freeview TV/Radio are heads & shoulders above DAB in bitrates, this is of course great news for DAC users who can send a signal towards a DAC :)grin:). But for DAB users its quite shocking. Some good reading re. DAB/Dsat/Freeview bitrates, The UKs DAB bitrates are the worst by a country mile around the world :

    http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=110914
     

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