£350 for a sub - what are the options?

I've had a test run of the REL Q150, and you can have a read of that here.

The BK may just be the thing to go for. Can I expect it to deliver the goods like the Q150 did?
 
Originally posted by Chester
The BK may just be the thing to go for. Can I expect it to deliver the goods like the Q150 did?

From what I have heard the Q150 is a hugely over rated subwoofer with a performance level that can be surpassed by a number of cheaper products and the BK should definately be one of them.
 
Originally posted by Chester
The BK may just be the thing to go for. Can I expect it to deliver the goods like the Q150 did?

No!!! I've heard the Q150 in the same room as my old Q100E and the BKE XLS-10 I have at the moment. It was set up in a bit of a hurry but still - evidently the worst of the bunch by a fair margin.

The BK sub *just about* gets you into the kind of performance range where you can hear almost nothing yet doors rattle, walls vibrate, people upstairs think there's a minor earth tremor etc. That's something I never noticed to any great extent with the Q100E or the Q150 and is a nice taster of what's possible with more expensive subs.

MuFu.

P.S. If you can stretch to £500, there are a number of options available that by all accounts should outclass these subs - Paradigm Servo 15, a s/h Velodyne CHT-15 etc.
 
Wow! Big difference in opinion.

MuFu, it sounds like you were running far too much gain and not quite enough frequency. I did find that when setting up the Q150, you need time to listen to low bass in music so you can hear the notes cross over to the main speakers, and don't overlap too much or you just end up with mud. Too low a cut-off, you just get either nothing, or huge vibration without any real purpose. And then the gain should be set-up so it integrates well with the rest of your system without swallowing the performance.

Of course, if you're trying to say that all it's good for is rumbling, then I'll steer clear. But I can't believe that all it wants to do is rip doors off of the wall. It's a sealed enclosure after all, not ported for pushing massive quantities of air like my bass guitar rig is! :)
 
Originally posted by Chester
MuFu, it sounds like you were running far too much gain and not quite enough frequency.

No amount of careful setting up is going to be able to overcome an inherent failure to reproduce sub-30Hz content without intrusive levels of distortion. Of course, no compact sub under £750 is good in this respect but some are better than others - I doubt I'm alone in thinking the Q150 is a fine mid-bass machine but struggles with the very lowest frequencies.

MuFu.
 
Originally posted by MuFu
I doubt I'm alone in thinking the Q150 is a fine mid-bass machine but struggles with the very lowest frequencies.

It's not even great at mid-bass. I had one and it not only bottomed out on a regular basis with DVDs but also had trouble keeping up with basslines in music material. It's also one of the few subs I've had in my room that was easy to locate aurally (unless turned down so low as to be pointless using at all).

I still, for the life of me, can't understand why all the magazines love the Q150 so much, although they do look quite nice in all the large adverts.

Whilst the likes of the CHT-10 are available for 3/5's of the price, I'm not sure why anyone buys a Q150 unless for high resale value or it's physical size.
 
Originally posted by MuFu
You big meanie, I was trying to say something nice about it. :D ;)

Well, if you're really keen on virtually cuboid subwoofer enclosures with the letters 'R E L' on them, it does that better than it's competitors :)
 
So my next step should definitely be try try out something else. Some people suggest that the MJ Acoustics Ref 100 is worth a look. They say it seems more tuneful.

There's one problem with the Velodyne: it's line level input only, and I intend the sub to work in stereo for music as well as A/V. If it's the case that I'm stuck with an amp where you cannot configure the sub channel to work in stereo, then it's either got to be the Ref 100 or the Q150. But being honest, I do plan to change the amp; it niggles me too much not having that facility! :devil:

As for the BK XLS 200, I'm not sure whether it's excellent value for money, or just cheap tack. Or maybe you just pay for having REL stamped on a sub. Any opinions about this?
 
Originally posted by Chester
As for the BK XLS 200, I'm not sure whether it's excellent value for money, or just cheap tack. Or maybe you just pay for having REL stamped on a sub. Any opinions about this?

The major part of the overall cost of a subwoofer when bought via a retail outlet whether it be bricks & mortar or internet is their costs and profits which is even higher if the model is imported as you are then paying for the importer's costs and profits too. Factor in an advertising and marketing budget and there isn't much left over for components.

The smart money is now going on buying these products direct from the manufacturer where the chain is restricted to just one profit centre which is why there is so much talk about SVS subs at the moment.

BK sell much smaller and less powerful subs than SVS but like them they are the manufacturer and the price that they ask for their products doesn't include a mark up for importer or retailer so the savings there for the customer are substantial.
 
Chester,

It is the same with any brand.. Especially someone like REL who have this "reputation" for good quality subs. It is quite amazing how much marketing, advertising and such things can effect a price. When i spoke to Dan Gleebles he was of the opinion that the amp could go down to 17hz which is impressive for a unit of that size. Now i cant confirm or deny this but if true then you would be getting a good little sub.

I would say if you want to spend around 300 pounds then your best bet is BK if you want to spend 500 then i would reccomend a Servo 15 (from RS :eek: ) which is on another level. It all depends on what you want and the demands you expect to place on it.

Cheers,

Hus
 
Originally posted by Chester
As for the BK XLS 200, I'm not sure whether it's excellent value for money, or just cheap tack. Or maybe you just pay for having REL stamped on a sub. Any opinions about this?

BK subwoofers may well represent better value for money than Rel, mainly because BK don't have to maintain a dealer network and huge monthly advertising costs.

I would also suggest that BK are making subs to a spec and design of their choosing, rather than hitting points (both spec wise and price wise) in the larger market. This is likely to mean those subs are engineered up, rather than down (although that wouldn't necessarily be the case at the higher end).

As Ian says, some manufacturers are now selling direct as they realise this is the way to maximise their profits whilst also avoiding making their products' retail price uncompetitive.
 
Guys,

Quick question (probably silly): Seeing as the BK is front-firing, does it matter where you put it? e.g. can I put it behind the sofa?

I know that bass is non-directional but I thought I'd double-check. I'm keen on one of these but the black cabinet gives it a negative WAF (the size gets brownie points tho :smashin: )
 
I could be wrong but i always thought that front firing subs should be placed facing yourselves. WIth ideal positioning being either to the left or right of the tv/front speakers.
 
Mogli,

That's my gut feeling as well, but it doesn't hurt to ask...

You see, my problem is that if it goes in front of the sofa when I'll have to go for a wood cabinet, and if it's behind then it doesn't matter so much...
 
This is REL's guide to setting up an ST.

You're all going to find this crazy, but this is the way I found the best position.

I moved the sofa out of the way, and placed the sub at the listening position, fired everything up to normal levels, with the sub to average everything. I then crawled along on my hands and knees to locate where the bass was 'collecting' There was one corner of the room where it sounded really good. I changed the orientation to face the sub width ways rather than length ways across the room (it's quite a rectangle at 10.5'X16'). Checked to see if conditions had changed, and they had but I still found that was the best place.

So, sub in the spot I found, room back to normal. I then adjusted the phase to counter boom (limit the frequencies so it's not adding to what the front speakers are already doing, but providing additional content underneath those frequencies. And then roughly adjust the level to around about where it needs to be so it's comfortable, but noticeably disappears when you switch it off.

Adjusting to 180 deg phase just completely cancelled some bottom frequencies out, even those the sub wasn't producing (I'll go into that later). Starting from the corner, I started to move the sub out diagonally, about 1cm at a time. There's an optimum 'sweet' spot when you try these positions out; mine was about 12/14cm from the corner.

I then tried rotating 90 deg to fire across the room again, and that really tightened it up. I checked by turning it back to notice differences, and it sounded woolly. I then fine tuned phase and gain again because repositioning and rotation will make a difference.

This all took about 1 1/2 hours, but it was sure worth it! So in answer to your question, spend some time testing different positions and firing straight along the room, or across it, or at an angle. I didn't try different angles as you can get yourself into a whole plethora of monotonous testing.

Regarding the frequency thing, it might help to read about frequency nodes and how pressure in your listening room works. There's a lot of physics involved so it can melt your mind if you're not careful, but for those of you in the pursuit of perfection, it's a must read. Check out Walter Fendt's Java applets site, in particular the Standing Longitudinal Waves page.

I'm afraid to say that my lounge was a very disappointing discovery after the Mrs and I moved in last year. I used this site to help me try and figure out what was going wrong. That's when I discovered the treaded bass node. I already knew that they existed, but I just didn't realise why and how. Now I wish I played drums and not bass guitar!

Anyway, do experiment with your set-up, it is worth it. Digging out tape measures and pen 'n' paper can help you plan your positioning better. Room designers use it for decorative planning, we can use it for HiFi and A/V.
 
Originally posted by evildonut
Quick question (probably silly): Seeing as the BK is front-firing, does it matter where you put it? e.g. can I put it behind the sofa?

I don't think it matters too much as long as there is free space in front of it, but do take a little time to position it carefully (as Chester mentioned). Obviously, you're going to have to make some compromises if it's behind the sofa!

It's worth e-mailing BK and asking whether they have anything similar in a natural wood finish for better WAF. amordue managed to pick up an XLS-200 in Cherry - it was a one off, but there may be more in the pipeline.

MuFu.
 
Great post Chester.

Well i may have to take that into account when my sub arrives :).

Cheers,

Hus
 
Don't dwell on the physics too much. You won't be watching any films or listening to any music!

I say the same thing about PCs. Don't spend your life maintaining the thing, it's a tool to be used. Too many people fight for better specifications for ultimate performance, but don't actually put their PCs to work. I'm sure to some degree the same could be said about Hi-Fi and A/V equipment.
 
Originally posted by Chester
There's one problem with the Velodyne: it's line level input only...

Uh, no - it accepts both high (speaker) level and low (line) level inputs - however, what it doesn't do is accept both at the same time.

Matt.
 
I stand corrected. Mind you, I still believe I should be managing the bass from the amp. That way I can leave the cross over on the sub all the way up so it accepts the full signal range in the LFE channel for DD and DTS tracks, and then let the amp manage where it crosses over between the sub and the front pair for other signals, as in 2 channel stereo. Mmm, front pair. Sorry, got lost on a tangent there! :)
 
Hi Everyone, sorry for butting in on your thread hope you dont mind but i need some advice on the sub front.

i have just replaced my aging Arcam AVR100 with a Rotel RSP1066 and 985MKII. i have dynaudio 42 speakers and a MJ50 sub.

with the arcam the sub just sat there, but with no management i used low level about 80hz and 1/4 way for level. it sounded ok

now with the rotel i'm finding really dificult the get the sub to gel with the speakers.

has anyone got any ideas, i might try the chester setup tonight, but should i use small speakers., large high and low level.

i'm sure my misses will be falling about laughing if i get on my hands and knees trying to sweet spot a sub.

Jon
 
It's probably a pretty standard setup although I am not sure of the facilities on the Rotel.

I would set the speakers to small (they only go down to 56Hz) and all bass to subwoofer, connecting just via the phono socket and not the high level speaker connectors.

Set the crossover on the subwoofer to maximum or off (if you have an off switch) and set the sub crossover on the processor to 80Hz.

Use that as a starting off position and adjust from there to suit
 

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