Response from Pioneer about the AX4ASi and the LFE 10db boost issue

R

richp

Guest
Hi

As I'm considering buying an AX4ASi soon (or a 5200ES) a few weeks ago I emailed Pioneer about the reported lack of 10db boost on LPCM inputs over HDMI (ie you don't get much ".1" when playing back HD-DVD or Blu-ray sources). Got a response today...

"Dear Richard

Thanks for your E-mail.

Movie soundtracks such as Dolby Digital or DTS have an LFE channel that is recorded 10dB low.

When decoding these signals, the LFE channel is boosted by 10dB.

Pioneer AV receivers handle this correct (as described in the forum topic).

However, if Dolby Digital or DTS signals are decoded to LPCM by an audio component (HD-DVD or Blu-Ray player)

and outputted via HDMI or i-LINK, Pioneer AV receivers do not boost the LFE channel by 10dB for LPCM input.

This is a product specification and not a bug as described in the topic.

But it is through that DENON receivers have a setting to change the LFE +10dB/0dB.

As claims (low level of low frequencies when using HDMI or i-Link connections) were first reported by US customers

Pioneer decided to add an extra LFE setting (+10dB/0dB) with a firmware update. The setting will only affect the HDMI

and i-Link input and can be set by the customer

The models for which an update will be released (end of January):

VSX-AX4AVi / AX2AV

VSX-AX4ASi / AX2AS

VSX-2016AV

Best regards,

Max

Pioneer
Customer & Service support

www.pioneer.co.uk

www.pioneer.eu

DISCLAIMER

This response is provided in good faith but Pioneer cannot warrant the accuracy or completeness of information given, its suitability for any particular purpose and it may contain technical or typographical errors. All liability of Pioneer howsoever arising is expressly excluded to the fullest extent permitted by law."

So the line seems to be "it's not a bug and we're fixing it soon".

--Rich
 
At least that's a positive and informative response! It may be worth asking them how the firmware can be upgraded on the amps, i.e. can it only be performed by a dealer?
 
Absolutely, it took a while but it's a good response - the AX4ASi is definitely back to the top of my shortlist now. Just need to listen to one!

I've already asked that exact question...
 
Excellent news... and nice one for following up on this.

I'm not sure how a firmware update will work, but I hope its as simple as placing the file on a USB stick, stick it in the amp and restart the amp.

However, I wouldn't bet my house on it... :)
 
Excellent news...

I'm not sure how a firmware update will work, but I hope its as simple as placing the file on a USB stick, stick it in the amp and restart the amp.

However, I wouldn't bet my house on it... :)

I hope it is that simple as I have just bought a 2106 and a Monolith DF
 
Thanks for sharing your findings Rich:thumbsup:
 
Hi Guy's,

Does anyone have an update on this firmware fix yet seeing as it is the 31st today and still no word from pioneer.

I own the 2016 and have phoned pioneer but they seem to know nothing about it, Just wondered if anyone else has heard anything.

Thanks:)
 
I think we need to get some contact details shared so that we can put the unenlightened Pioneer people in question in touch with those Pioneer people that are up to speed i.e. do their job for them (rolls eyes).
 
Likewise - still interested in the outcome....
 
as Pioneer clearly see this as a problem with the players (even though the specs seem to suggest the player are correctly lowering the LFE by 10db), I assume the Pioneer Bluray player sends the LFE via LPCM without lowering it by 10db?
 
This is great news, :thumbsup: ,if it does happen :rolleyes: i have had my pio ax2 since october and have been waiting to see if there was going to be a fix over here,i was closely following the thread over @ avs ,i hope the firmware is a simple as the usb stick cuz i would hate to have to unhook all my gear and be without the amp for like 4 to 6 weeks if it had to go back to them..gggrrrrr:devil:
 
Hi all Pioneer owners,

Well i managed to get hold of Max from Customer services earlier and refreshed his memory on the firmware fix which was posted originally by richp.

Anyway he did get back to me which was pretty quick and assured me that the release would be in the next 2-4 weeks and to phone mid feb for an update.

What Max did say was this upgrade would probably be a service centre update and probabaly not a manual one, At least they know about the problem and are actually doing something about it.:thumbsup:
 
Hi all Pioneer owners,

Well i managed to get hold of Max from Customer services earlier and refreshed his memory on the firmware fix which was posted originally by richp.

Anyway he did get back to me which was pretty quick and assured me that the release would be in the next 2-4 weeks and to phone mid feb for an update.

What Max did say was this upgrade would probably be a service centre update and probabaly not a manual one, At least they know about the problem and are actually doing something about it.:thumbsup:

Oh dear.
Will have to make sure there is a Pioneer service centre near me before i buy this online.:(
 
Hi all Pioneer owners,

Well i managed to get hold of Max from Customer services earlier and refreshed his memory on the firmware fix which was posted originally by richp.

Anyway he did get back to me which was pretty quick and assured me that the release would be in the next 2-4 weeks and to phone mid feb for an update.

What Max did say was this upgrade would probably be a service centre update and probabaly not a manual one, At least they know about the problem and are actually doing something about it.:thumbsup:

Thanks for the update :smashin:
I thought as much,its a pain though to have to unhook all your equipment ,will they send a courier to pick this up, i suppose we would fork the bill for collection/delivery??
 
Yeah....you might as well wait for the next gen models from Pioneer. :D
 
as Pioneer clearly see this as a problem with the players (even though the specs seem to suggest the player are correctly lowering the LFE by 10db), I assume the Pioneer Bluray player sends the LFE via LPCM without lowering it by 10db?

The player doesn't "lower" it by 10dB; it's recorded like that on the disc/tape/whatever the recording medium is.

Something somewhere along the line needs to make sure that the LFE channel is output 10dB louder than the other channels. It's that boost that gives the LFE a purpose - it can shake the room 10dB louder than any other channel.

The player can't boost the LFE by 10dB before sending it up the HDMI/i.Link pipe; the boosted signal wouldn't fit. Alternatively, it could try to adjust relative levels by lowering all the other channels by 10dB. But then you'd complain that the player was so much quieter than all the other sources.

Neither of those "solutions" work. The only sensible thing to do is to transmit the LFE at its original line level across the link, and let the amplifier/receiver perform the boost.

Now, I would be interested to know what Pioneer's SACD/DVD-Audio/Blu-ray players are doing with their LFE channel; surely someone using the receiver with a DV989 or similar to play SACD/DVD-Audio over i.Link should have spotted this LFE problem?
 
I understand - hence my sarcastic comment when pioneer were suggesting it was the players' fault - when it is clearly an amp issue.

BTW, any news? I'm about to write the 2016 off for me as I don't want to rewire all my kit then have to send it off to an engineer for 3 weeks. I'd want to buy my new receiver already sorted, and frankly anyone that would want to listen to both DVDs and HD/bluray would need this LFE issue fixed.
 
Any more word on the LFE issue? I have the AX4ASi on order on the condition that I'll have it only if they've fixed the LFE issue. No word yet my end.
 
How are you stipulating that then? Do you have a firmware version number with LFE resolved? Just be doubly sure before you hand over your hard-earned...the whole issue is a right mess. Tempted to just wait for the new models....nothing concrete seems to be happening (even on avsforums)....unless someone out there can correct me....
 
Well avsforum seems to indicate that those with a Jan manufacturing date are OK, but you're right, not easy to check and nothing concrete. I am leaning towards the Yamaha 1700!

I'll give the shop a ring today to see what they say.
 
An Update!

I left it with the shop that I would buy the AX4Si if they had fixed the LFE boost. They rang back to say that they had spoken to Pioneer support who had told them that there was no LFE boost issue, but the shop (Superfi in Derby - excellent by the way - always very helpful) left me the Pioneer Technical Support number to check for myself.

I initially got the same spiel about there not being an issue (which there isn't for DVD, only BluRay and HDDVD through HDMI/firewire), but I pressed further and quoted the note from Max in this thread. Support then rang Max and came back to say that this issue is not yet fixed and to ring back in a month or so.

Bit of a bugger. I have cancelled the order and will either wait a month or purchase a Yamaha RVX-1700, which doesn't match my DVD player!

Ah well. Looks like the new models will be out before this is fixed!
 
A bit off topic - but hopefully someone here can help.

If I were to get a PS3 (for Bluray movies) to use with my Pioneer VSX2016 - because of the LFE issue would I be best routing the sound via an optical lead - would this help and would I be missing out on a lot. I'm happy with normal DTS on my 5.1 system at the minute.
 
For the time being I'd say that is the best option especially if you are happy with DTS/5.1. For games, I'd say LFE is at least as big a deal as it is to movies and you don't want that to be anaemic.
 

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