Zack Snyder's Justice League Movie Review & Comments

So to my final thoughts, more of a general persual.

The cut sadly is still very disjointed. But perhaps it's because we (or I) have gotten so used to the meticulous level of planning by Marvel, that everything else pales in it's wake. I don't think splitting it into parts helped either, and at times it got a bit bogged down in meandering plot points.

I also found the script pretty woeful. Humour fell flat, exposition was lacking and very basic; with the overall plot around "mother boxes" a bit of a stinker as well in my opinion. I had to laugh out loud at some of the silliness too. The Flash scene where he fell in love looked nice, but was amateurish compared to similar brilliance by Quicksilver in Days of Future Past. I also had to laugh (which I've already commented on in the other thread) at Diana tomb raiding in a dressing gown and high heels. I mean come on, she didn't even slip the heels off :laugh: I know they were trying to keep her sexiness afloat as much as possible, but did no-one in the production think that was a bit daft? A cheap criticism I guess, but things like that just grate me. That whole segment in fact was just nasty - an arrow that happens to open a chamber, that just happens to show the history of
Darkseid
Like I said I appreciate that they've not had the world building opportunity, but this is just too lazy. That arrow also highlighted a particularly dour moment of the script when it's presented to the Queen. "This arrow will reach the temple". Well of course it bloody will because you wouldn't be giving it to the Queen otherwise; and I'm quite certain the Queen knows what arrows will and won't reach o_O

However it wasn't all bad. The score was good and there were a few goosebumpy moments induced by it. Not as many fist pumping moments as I would have liked, but when Supes turns up even I couldn't grumble. Except for him being in a black suit - red and blue always for me or gtfo. The action scenes were passable but nothing stonking like they should have been. But again we've been spoiled by Marvel in this regard. No comparison between the Endgame scrap with Cap, IM and Thor, and Steppenwolf's rumble with WW, Cyborg and Aquaman. Even when Supes does turn up it still isn't as grandiose as it should be.

Gadot is still tremendous as WW though, Affleck was an accomplished Batman, Jason M is grunt enough as Aquaman, and as I said earlier Fisher got some redemption out of this as Cyborg. I'm not keen on Miller's Flash, although I'm not keen on the Flash character anyway. And obviously my thoughts on Cavill are already well known. If he doesn't don the tights again, that works for me. Irons was class but he's no Caine, and Adams didn't have to do much other than look miserable and then raise a smile.

Overall then a significant improvement over Whedon's cut, of that there is no doubt. But far from the film it should be given Bats and Supes are the pinnacle of the superhero universe. We unfortunately continue to be robbed of their delights. Fom the cutting room floor though it could have been a whole lot worse still.

So I was going to trump for a 6.5 but in light of some of the comments above I think a 7 would be fair game. I definitely can't go any higher than that.

And I definitely don't need to bother with a Black and White version.

Yup, I can see all of that mate. There was defo some lazy / contrived storytelling at play across this whole saga, mainly because - as has been said a thousand times before - they just didn't put in the groundwork.

I possibly wouldn't have elected to compare this to Endgame, as it's really more like Avengers 1 (considering he'd planned a 2 and 3, that also fits the "Phases"), and probably stands a better comparison there. This was never going to match up to Endgame, it doesn't even deserve to be in the same sentence, that puppy took a couple of dozen films to build to. For a rush-job, though, standing comparison to Marvel's Phase 1 conclusion is a hell of a lot better than where we were a few years' back.

As for black and white, aside from embracing the fact it'll lead to a number of ridiculously "funny" play-on-words limericks from Snyder (Bronzed Noir Edition, Black as Knight Edition, The Black Suit is still Black in Black and White Edition), it's just not for me.

I'll probably watch a couple of scenes on mute, with the soundtrack playing in the background and my kids making up the words and pretend it's Snyder's The Artist Edition for kicks, but otherwise, a curio at best.

If it's money that'll go to an HBO Batman/Joker/Death in the Family with Affleck, count me in, however.
 
Yup, I can see all of that mate. There was defo some lazy / contrived storytelling at play across this whole saga, mainly because - as has been said a thousand times before - they just didn't put in the groundwork.

I possibly wouldn't have elected to compare this to Endgame, as it's really more like Avengers 1 (considering he'd planned a 2 and 3, that also fits the "Phases"), and probably stands a better comparison there. This was never going to match up to Endgame, it doesn't even deserve to be in the same sentence, that puppy took a couple of dozen films to build to. For a rush-job, though, standing comparison to Marvel's Phase 1 conclusion is a hell of a lot better than where we were a few years' back.

As for black and white, aside from embracing the fact it'll lead to a number of ridiculously "funny" play-on-words limericks from Snyder (Bronzed Noir Edition, Black as Knight Edition, The Black Suit is still Black in Black and White Edition), it's just not for me.

I'll probably watch a couple of scenes on mute, with the soundtrack playing in the background and my kids making up the words and pretend it's Snyder's The Artist Edition for kicks, but otherwise, a curio at best.

If it's money that'll go to an HBO Batman/Joker/Death in the Family with Affleck, count me in, however.

Just for clarification I was only comparing the standoff with that of Endgame's, not the entire work. I agree with you (and have done with an earlier post I think) that an overall comparison to Whedon's Avengers is much more apt.

I absolutely love Logan and I still won't watch that in "Noir". That gimmicky shit isn't for me, not for this type of piece.

And yes the money shot would be an Affleck led 'Death in the Family'. In fact some scenes in Bats vs Supes practically paved the way for it. It could be done entirely seperate from Justice League too, and Affleck is definitely the right (Bat)man for the job. Some redemption for Leto to be found in there as well.
 
As Cas says, no amount of improvement work can overcome the lack of solid foundations for this franchise as a whole. But while Snyders DC is still heavily flawed, I think this is the best possible version of it. I also think its the closest the DCEU will probably ever get to Avengers-scale epic storytelling.

I think if one leaves other MCU comparisons at the door, it can be appreciated as modern 'Greek Mythological' style storytelling. Also, to be honest, I thought a lot of the battle scenes here packed more wallop than their equivalents in other superhero franchises.
 
I'll agree it's probably the best possible version. With some tweaks and more attention to detail it could have been better, but water under the bridge now.

I purposely did try and leave the MCU comparisons at the door but it's clear that Zack wasn't doing that himself either, so it was pretty difficult in the end.

I might watch it again at some point down the line, but it's unlikely I will. I've just realised I never once mentioned the aspect ratio either, which was clearly contentious for many. Can't say I had any cause for complaint there.

Now I need to just grit my teeth and watch WW84 at some point :D
 
Now I need to just grit my teeth and watch WW84 at some point :D

You probably don't.

I'd probably prefer to be back in the universe where all I'd seen was the tremendous Blue Monday trailer, so maybe just watch that a couple of times instead and save yourself.

Somewhere down the line, perhaps with a few more decent efforts under DC's belt, it's the kind of thing you could go back and watch and probably find it surprisingly watchable. But right now, it's gonna just plain anger you.
 
You probably don't.

I'd probably prefer to be back in the universe where all I'd seen was the tremendous Blue Monday trailer, so maybe just watch that a couple of times instead and save yourself.

Somewhere down the line, perhaps with a few more decent efforts under DC's belt, it's the kind of thing you could go back and watch and probably find it surprisingly watchable. But right now, it's gonna just plain anger you.

At the moment I exist in that universe! One of the few left :laugh: I even still listen to that 'Blue Monday' mix.

Before I watch it I'll log out the forum and unplug the internet for a week. That should be enough time for the gamma to subside so I can offer a reasoned take on it.

That's if you even want me resurrecting "that" thread :D
 
As Cas says, no amount of improvement work can overcome the lack of solid foundations for this franchise as a whole. But while Snyders DC is still heavily flawed, I think this is the best possible version of it. I also think its the closest the DCEU will probably ever get to Avengers-scale epic storytelling.

I think if one leaves other MCU comparisons at the door, it can be appreciated as modern 'Greek Mythological' style storytelling. Also, to be honest, I thought a lot of the battle scenes here packed more wallop than their equivalents in other superhero franchises.

If you try and recall the ‘epic’ DC storylines in the comics I still struggle. All that comes to mind are:

Crisis on Infinite Earths
And every copy/variation since. But you just can’t make a film(s) of this without building up a whole multiverse first of all the characters, so you care about them and their peril, and also have known all their multiverse counterparts, as it essentially is a story that kills the entire multiverse and merges/keeps the best version of each. Impossible story to tell on film, unless you committed to a 10- year plan and arc, like Marvel did.

Flashpoint
Admittedly I haven’t read it, I have the trade in a box, and know the story. I stopped collecting DC when they went through their phase of replacing all their characters with different ones, around the time of Knightfall. I started again with The New52, but back filled on trades which I’ve never got round to reading. But DC Films are tackling this in a one-and-done it seems, whereas I think it has the same challenges as Crisis and will be a wasted opportunity, outside of a few fan service gaga moments.

The Crime Syndicate
The JLA versus their dark multiverse Doppelgängers. Whilst it’s a chance for established actors to have some fun with their characters you have to earn it.would be good for Justice League 4 or 5, buy you can’t just jump in.

Darkside/Injustice
Snyder was already on the case, and it’s pretty clear why this was the obvious choice to base his Justice League epic arc on. A world threat forcing individuals to come together against a common enemy. Classic superhero team up theme.

Green Lantern stuff
So you have to establish GL on earth first, before opening up the Green Lantern Corps intergalactic stuff, and cosmic global threats. And the Justice League don’t easily do Space hopping, so it’s understandable they are relegating this to the HBO Max series.

Otherwise DC have done some really crap ‘events’ that I can’t remember because they were crap.

It just feels there is so much more to mine in Marvel Comics for the ‘epic’ stuff

Galactus/Silver Surfer, The Kree/Skull War, The Korvac Saga, Secret Wars, Contest of Champions, Infinity Saga, Armageddon, Acts of Vengeance, House of M, Secret Invasion, Dark Reign, Civil War and it goes on.
 
If you try and recall the ‘epic’ DC storylines in the comics I still struggle. All that comes to mind are:

Crisis on Infinite Earths
And every copy/variation since. But you just can’t make a film(s) of this without building up a whole multiverse first of all the characters, so you care about them and their peril, and also have known all their multiverse counterparts, as it essentially is a story that kills the entire multiverse and merges/keeps the best version of each. Impossible story to tell on film, unless you committed to a 10- year plan and arc, like Marvel did.

Flashpoint
Admittedly I haven’t read it, I have the trade in a box, and know the story. I stopped collecting DC when they went through their phase of replacing all their characters with different ones, around the time of Knightfall. I started again with The New52, but back filled on trades which I’ve never got round to reading. But DC Films are tackling this in a one-and-done it seems, whereas I think it has the same challenges as Crisis and will be a wasted opportunity, outside of a few fan service gaga moments.

The Crime Syndicate
The JLA versus their dark multiverse Doppelgängers. Whilst it’s a chance for established actors to have some fun with their characters you have to earn it.would be good for Justice League 4 or 5, buy you can’t just jump in.

Darkside/Injustice
Snyder was already on the case, and it’s pretty clear why this was the obvious choice to base his Justice League epic arc on. A world threat forcing individuals to come together against a common enemy. Classic superhero team up theme.

Green Lantern stuff
So you have to establish GL on earth first, before opening up the Green Lantern Corps intergalactic stuff, and cosmic global threats. And the Justice League don’t easily do Space hopping, so it’s understandable they are relegating this to the HBO Max series.

Otherwise DC have done some really crap ‘events’ that I can’t remember because they were crap.

It just feels there is so much more to mine in Marvel Comics for the ‘epic’ stuff

Galactus/Silver Surfer, The Kree/Skull War, The Korvac Saga, Secret Wars, Contest of Champions, Infinity Saga, Armageddon, Acts of Vengeance, House of M, Secret Invasion, Dark Reign, Civil War and it goes on.

Hah, you reminded me of Knightfall, which is actually a really interesting discussion in its own right.

Everybody talks about DC jumping the gun on their approach to the Snyderverse, but I'd argue they actually have form for this that predates the MCU.

No way was Bane/Knightfall right for shoehorning into the conclusion of the Dark Knight Trilogy.

I remember reading Knightfall and it was an epic event. It wasn't like "Oh, I put my back out, let me see a Chiro and I'll be back in action by the end of the month". The build up was systematic and devastating. Batman literally fought all of his old enemies one by one (after Bane released them) and, at his very lowest and most exhausted, Bane broke him. I remember not even knowing whether Bruce would be back, as he journeyed the planet looking at increasingly hopeless cures, and as Azrael took up the mantle. I can't understand why they wanted to cut this down to a one-and-done.

It's not quite as glaringly stupid a decision as putting The Dark Knight Returns AND Doomsday in one film, as well as introducing the Justice League, but it's still comparable as I remember thinking at the time that Rises was one of those examples of a movie which demanded being split into two parts (unlike, say, the conclusion of Hunger Games).

No matter how long Rises was, they were never going to cover all that ground in one movie satisfactorily, and it does still feel rushed. But hey, it's Nolan, so it's still largely excellent, even if it's just another (often overlooked) example of a DC missed opportunity IMO.
 
Now I need to just grit my teeth and watch WW84 at some point :D
If you seen the last in the series of Enterprise well this is the same to the DC universes.

Or to put it an other way what Jesse Eisenberg is to Lex Luthor this is the same to the DC film universe (albeit I not seen Bird of Prey yet). :laugh:
 
If you seen the last in the series of Enterprise well this is the same to the DC universes.

Or to put it an other way what Jesse Eisenberg is to Lex Luthor this is the same to the DC film universe (albeit I not seen Bird of Prey yet). :laugh:

BOP is a bit like the Solo of the DC Universe for me. I waited a good long while before touching it and found that I didn't actually mind it, but it was a pretty pointless endeavour and a hell of a waste of money. They could have shot it for half that (think: Deadpool) and thus actually made a profit but, for some insane reason, they stuck a shed tonne of CG backdrops and 'splosions in there to give it 'scale'. For that alone I find it pretty unforgivable. It's indulgent to say the least.
 
BOP is a bit like the Solo of the DC Universe for me. I waited a good long while before touching it and found that I didn't actually mind it, but it was a pretty pointless endeavour and a hell of a waste of money. They could have shot it for half that (think: Deadpool) and thus actually made a profit but, for some insane reason, they stuck a shed tonne of CG backdrops and 'splosions in there to give it 'scale'. For that alone I find it pretty unforgivable. It's indulgent to say the least.
I just thought it was a load of characters that had nothing more than token resemblance to the characters I knew, whilst trying to prove how nasty and evil men were by having the lead characters act just as bad, if not worse. A horrific waste of money and a really good cast.
 
I just thought it was a load of characters that had nothing more than token resemblance to the characters I knew, whilst trying to prove how nasty and evil men were by having the lead characters act just as bad, if not worse. A horrific waste of money and a really good cast.

Yeah, I can see that. It was a waste. Considering, for example, Huntress alone could have been DC's The Punisher if handled right. And Canary was hilarious. Why the hell waste your time as an oppressed singer in a bar you don't like if you have that freaking super-power?

I guess I just knew all the bad press going it. By the time I got to it, it couldn't have been any worse than what I expected and it really wasn't, it was probably even a bit better (Harley's still a hoot). But yes, utterly pointless. Doesn't even do what it says on the tin until the final five second coda.
 
Is this a film forum or comic books? After all they are two completely different mediums.
 
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@richp007 the reason Lantern wasn’t in it was down to WB. Snyder had filmed him but they stepped in and said you can’t use him we have plans for the character, he then negotiated to use Martian Manhunter which they didn’t care about.
 
I guess I just knew all the bad press going it. By the time I got to it, it couldn't have been any worse than what I expected and it really wasn't, it was probably even a bit better (Harley's still a hoot). But yes, utterly pointless. Doesn't even do what it says on the tin until the final five second coda.
This is what I expected, as it is often that I find films entertaining or worthy enough despite a lot of bad reviews. This one was the exception where I thought it was even worse.
 
This is what I expected, as it is often that I find films entertaining or worthy enough despite a lot of bad reviews. This one was the exception where I thought it was even worse.

No it wasn't. Snyders cut was by far the better. If you didn't enjoy it, sorry.
 
No it wasn't. Snyders cut was by far the better. If you didn't enjoy it, sorry.

Ah mate, sorry, the thread's got too long. It's going to form a singularity.

Scrowe and I (and Garrett) were talking Birds of Prey, not ZSJL.
 
@richp007 the reason Lantern wasn’t in it was down to WB. Snyder had filmed him but they stepped in and said you can’t use him we have plans for the character, he then negotiated to use Martian Manhunter which they didn’t care about.

Plans? They had plans? PLANS YOU SAY??!!! :mad::mad:

What possible plans could they have had for Lantern that meant NOT appearing in a Justice League film?!!

Are they insane? I'd lock them all up in Arkham and throw away the key. Not fit for purpose.
 
If you seen the last in the series of Enterprise well this is the same to the DC universes.

Or to put it an other way what Jesse Eisenberg is to Lex Luthor this is the same to the DC film universe (albeit I not seen Bird of Prey yet). :laugh:

Yeah maybe I just won't watch it :D

Enterprise is one I've been flirting with for years. I just never know whether to start it or not. But it's looking increasingly more likely it's going to have to be part of the Star Trek universe I let pass me by.
 
No it wasn't. Snyders cut was by far the better. If you didn't enjoy it, sorry.
We’re talking Birds of Prey, wrong thread I know.
 
Plans? They had plans? PLANS YOU SAY??!!! :mad::mad:

What possible plans could they have had for Lantern that meant NOT appearing in a Justice League film?!!

Are they insane? I'd lock them all up in Arkham and throw away the key. Not fit for purpose.

It was a mess introducing this many characters this quickly. First time appearance for Aquaman, Flash and Cyborg? That's three too many already.

Green Lantern may be core, pun intended, but he's also quite a difficult property to realise on the screen (as the studios and RR found out the hard way). There's a reason he's always worked so well in the animated shows. I'm just not quite sure how that translates to live action, and so I sympathise, to some extent. They need to tread carefully.

That this came down to politics, however, is unforgivable.

Still, it's hardly like a cameo a la MM would have satisfied you mate. All that particular cameo did for me was make me wonder why the hell didn't he step up and get his hands dirty when the world was under threat.

As much as Supergirl has gone off the rails, and as much as MM was vastly underpowered in comparison to her, at least he used to throw down when he was required to.
 
It was a mess introducing this many characters this quickly. First time appearance for Aquaman, Flash and Cyborg? That's three too many already.

Green Lantern may be core, pun intended, but he's also quite a difficult property to realise on the screen (as the studios and RR found out the hard way). There's a reason he's always worked so well in the animated shows. I'm just not quite sure how that translates to live action, and so I sympathise, to some extent. They need to tread carefully.

That this came down to politics, however, is unforgivable.

Still, it's hardly like a cameo a la MM would have satisfied you mate. All that particular cameo did for me was make me wonder why the hell didn't he step up and get his hands dirty when the world was under threat.

As much as Supergirl has gone off the rails, and as much as MM was vastly underpowered in comparison to her, at least he used to throw down when he was required to.

I was far from happy with that little MM cameo. What would have sufficed was Lantern swooping in when our other heroes were struggling a bit, planting a whopper on SteppenWolf just as
Supes and Cyborg pulled apart the mother boxes.
A little chat with our team then as a way of an introduction, and then a swift Captain Marvel-esque, "I've got other planets to save right now, but I'll be back" jobber, and all is right with the world again. And I can sleep easy and give the cut 8/10.
 
I think JL films should have fused/covered Flashpoint Paradox and the Injustice storyline.
Would have been mad epic.



Flashpoint would have demanded a literal metric tone from the actors. Not sure if Gal Gadot could have pulled of an ultra-fierce cut throat master of war Wonder Woman though. She is already a bit 'soft' for the role IMO. Much prefer DCEU animated universe versions, feels more well rounded and powerful. Still way too much exotic mystery with her character IMO.

I also hate the fact they used Flash's time travel in the JL films. Should have been saved for Flashpoint Paradox and specifically the point in the climax where Flash will have to use it to save the world. Using time travel so early opens up and exposes the massive cop-out which super hero films should ultimately try to avoid using too much.

It was a mess introducing this many characters this quickly. First time appearance for Aquaman, Flash and Cyborg? That's three too many already.

Green Lantern may be core, pun intended, but he's also quite a difficult property to realise on the screen (as the studios and RR found out the hard way). There's a reason he's always worked so well in the animated shows. I'm just not quite sure how that translates to live action, and so I sympathise, to some extent. They need to tread carefully.

That this came down to politics, however, is unforgivable.

Still, it's hardly like a cameo a la MM would have satisfied you mate. All that particular cameo did for me was make me wonder why the hell didn't he step up and get his hands dirty when the world was under threat.

As much as Supergirl has gone off the rails, and as much as MM was vastly underpowered in comparison to her, at least he used to throw down when he was required to.


totally agreed. Ideally they just needed to keep it simple and release standalone films for Flash and Cyborg but they have this stupid idea of introducing characters via a group film and THEN releasing the standalone film. Its idiotic.

IMO, they should have done


Superman MOS
Batman (intro film with Robin/Joker conflict and setup for what happens to Batman in this alt timeline)
Superman 2 (further develop and flesh out Clarke, introduce Lex Luther since they wanted to hold off on MOS - show him as an actual smart, charismatic but dangertous villain)
Batman 2 - climax, Joker conflict if not resolved in the last film and Batgirl.. basically over 2 films, cover 2 tragedies involving Robin/Batgirl to shape Batman's personality - expose him dealing with consequences of MOS)
Wonder woman intro film - to give us a bit of a break
Batman vs Superman w/ Wonder woman
Aquaman
Flash 1 (intro film)
Cyborg (tie in Batman)
Green Lantern (tie in Flash)
Shazam
Flashpoint Paradox film (flash travel back into past with most superheroes now uncovered for the 'war') - feature everyone, cameo supergirl!!! in the alternative universe/timeline
Justice league film
Joker / suicide squad film - Joker film, liase w/different villains, setup intro to poison ivy, scarecrow, villains perspective and final setup for Injustice film to expand universe for Injustice trilogy
Second villain film ? Harley Quinn- further evolution ; not neccearily suicide squad but expose villain,
Shazam 2 - setup Black Adam, / manipulating factor for Supergirl arrival
Injustice film - the one where Joker completely breaks Superman - end with camo of supergirl in universe newly arrived
Supergirl origins film film - intro -> further explore Clarke past, link to super girl, setup villains ; only reason I think supergirl should come later is she is a bit 'broken' in the universe and would probably solve too many problems in the JL film and leaves Clarke a little underutilised and not needed. Timeskip to supergirl with amnesia,trained by Robin/whoeever picks her up and tie into injustice 2
Injustice 2 - timeskip / Batman rebelling against Superman etc.
Injustice 3 - Conclusion, banding together of everyone against common enemy (Darkseid) OR if they want to get even more interesting, Superman killing Darkseid and then Batman vs Superman part 2 with torn war between different factions


ggggggggggg
Marvel destroyed.


anyone that is clued up... yes i just fused flashpoint paradox with injustice & sprinkled the classic Batman tragedies involving Batgirl and Robin to help flashout Batman as this more gunslingerish unforgiving beast.
added 1 superman film to flesh out and setup Lex Luther as a PIVOTAL player in Batman.

If i could I would have done a separate cat woman film too but oh well.. and a third Batman film with timeskip and new Robin but i didn't want to get too greedy.


i think from this, the best film would have been Injustice 1 and Flashpoint Paradox. People would have been blown away. Flashpoint Paradox could have been a 2 parter obv... I'd actually prefer for it to be with part 1 ending with them getting Superman out of the cave and him being exposed to sunlight for the first time.
 

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