Velodyne DD+ : new flagship sub range

Honestly? I'm somewhat underwhelmed, because other than a different driver and cabinet and some fancy one touch EQ'ing (which we can easily get elsewhere in an off-board capacity), what is there that's really different? Of course the driver can make a massive difference, but I think there are now other alternatives where high end performance in a relatively compact size (with nice finishes) is required.

Given that an anti-mode costs a shade over £200 (and that the EQ in the Velo doesn't appear to be much different than the SMS1) that the amplification in the DD+ looks to be the same as the old DD series....I really can't see how a 50% price increase on the DD15 can be justified? :confused:
 
The new driver is a substantial factor in the increased cost. The weak pound has also had a huge impact in the final price. DD Plus is quite a different product to the original DD. The EQ system is very well laid out and simple to use. The adjustable servo system, which is often overlooked, can deliver fast tight bass at its full sampling rate or a more 'chubby' bass when backed off.
Output across the range is up by 4-6dB depending on model. DD Plus is more than a worthy successor for DD.
To dismiss a product like this without hearing it is mad.
 
To dismiss a product like this without hearing it is mad.

To think anyone is dismissing the DD+ is mad ;) Proof is in the pudding of course, but I can't help but be skeptical given the 50% price increase.

I say this as a historical fan of Velodyne - I've owned DD subs for the last 5 years.

*edit* - Russ, when you do get one of these to review (please make it the DD-15+ :) ), I'll be more than happy to bring my DD-15 over...will be interesting to hear the difference between the two.
 
A DD-15 Plus at £4.5K has to deliver substantial improvements over the old model or it is worthless.
I have yet to hear the 15/18 Plus but 10/12 Plus units compared to the old models are massively better in all departments. I have high hopes for the bigger units.
 
A DD-15 Plus at £4.5K has to deliver substantial improvements over the old model or it is worthless.

Absolutely, hence my skepticism. I look forward to hearing the DD15+ if the 10/12+ are significantly better than their predecessors :)
 
Just to add, the reason why I've stuck to the DD series for so many years is because for the size, I've not heard anything that can touch the DD15. But where I feel the DD is lacking is in the upper bass region, where it sounds quite dry and hasn't got the sheer punch that I've heard in other designs. If they have cracked this then :eek: :clap:
 
....and that the EQ in the Velo doesn't appear to be much different than the SMS1...
Okay, it's still 8 PEQ filters adjustable at 1Hz resolution (I'd have prefered 1/2 or better still, 1/3Hz resolution), but unlike most standalone options, it offers auto EQ of the subwoofer's response including the output of the main speakers (as well as stand alone) all of which is manually adjustable in every single parametre. The new auto EQ now also adjusts filter frequency and filter Q in exactly the way it didn't before. This is a feature set that is unique as almost all other solutions lack one of the above features. That a computer is now needed is also very much more than an just a bit of an update.

I'd also add that the driver is clearly a completely new design and that DDs always had enough power anyway. To me, it looks like a lot more than a MkII refresh.:)

Personally, I'm quite excited about it.

Russell
 
Well you know alot more about subwoofers than me so I will concede to your knowledge :) It's the price that's disappointed me more than anything else....ouch doesn't come close. Although I'm sure I heard a rumour that the Sub2 was going up in price by £2k????? :eek:
 
It did some while ago - The Sub 1 has jumped from £3500 to £5000 and the Sub 2 is now £9k.

Russell
 
The adjustable servo system, which is often overlooked, can deliver fast tight bass at its full sampling rate or a more 'chubby' bass when backed off.

I rather like that description :D
 
And pretty damn accurate too. I quite liked the tight, dry bass with the servo screwed to the max, but others liked the slightly phatter bass with a slight increase in bottom end grunt that relaxing the control over distortion produced. There's a quid pro quo with every adjustment the DDs offered, but they're the only one that allowed you to make the choice over every parametre.

Russell
 
I think that the size difference between the old and new models is a larger contributing factor to the performance increase than the new driver...as good as it may be.

DD10+ is larger by 64%
DD12+ is larger by 30%
too lazy to calculate DD15+ size difference
DD18+ is larger by 28%

Indeed, I'd be damned curious to know the performance difference between the DD10+ and the older DD12. The DD10+ and older DD12 are almost the exact same size. I bought the DD12 because I wanted the driver to work less hard than on the DD10. Yes, I prefer small subwoofers. If I didn't care about size, there are a ton of other subwoofers out there that offer better price/performance than Velo.
 
An interesting point indeed.

With sealed subwoofers, the entire output is obviously derived from the driver. A larger volume is more efficient, meaning it requires less power to squeeze the air held within it. If the new drivers are to deliver greater output, it means the same power must be used to squeeze the greater volume harder which can only be done by throwing the driver further as this will shift a greater volume of air.

This is what the DD+ range seems to promise with their long throw, underhung long voice coil drivers that, visually at least, the larger roll surround seems to promise. I remain excited by this apparently thorough workover of a renowned product line.

One thing I would like to know; The use of a second voice coil to 'inform' the servo circuitry has been dropped in favour of an accelerometer. IIRC, the secondary coil was always descibed as a more accurate way of informing the servo, but is the use of an accelerometer an acceptance of the fact that cone resonance is a factor worth monitoring?

Russell
 
Yeah, Russell...I'd be curious to know the true linear one-way Xmas of the new driver versus the old. The old driver's Xmax was pretty decent, but far from exceptional compared to what's been out there for the past few years. Additionally, I'm also a wee bit skeptical because the amp output remains relatively the same. I can see how the newer motor structure would keep the pole in the gap for a longer stroke distance, but unless you're increasing the wattage, I'm not quite sure how that's gonna work.
Velodyne does what they do extremely well, so aside from the increased efficiency gained by the increased box size, perhaps they sprinkled some pixie dust in there as well. :)
 
The size will certainly help. A small amount of the increase comes from the thicker cabinet walls. Also a larger magnet with dedicated internal bracing takes up a chunk of room. I agree that the increased size will boost efficiency without the need for more amp power. 10 and 12 Plus do not look too big - the tapered cabinet helps keep the visual increase to a minimum - but not as compact as the old models.
 
The new motor may well be a little more efficient to, and if the suspension is a little softer than that will help make the driver more efficient. Of course, such tweaks have other trade offs, but its conceivable the new driver makes much better use of the power, and in a slightly larger cabinet to help further.
 
The second voice coil was a drive coil and not a servo coil. As far as I know accelerometers have always been used. Accelerometer not only informs the amp of current acceleration (mounted on voice coil) but also picks up cone vibrations. Cone construction is therefore critical.
Suspension on DD Plus is a little looser and with the release of some amp limiting the result is peak to peak of 1.3" to 1.6" - in system. Old DD could achieve 1.7" but only with no accelerometer hooked up and in free air! So new units will load rooms a lot better.
 
I'm getting more and more interested in these, especially as I hadn't realised the + range were physically bigger. Wookie, are Redline going to be at Bristol?
 
Will be next year - which is not that helpful - sorry. Will have a pair of 12 Plus's being used at the show though :)
 
Although new to AVF, I have posted a couple of times before and thought that it may be worth me chiming in with a contribution to this thread.

Having spent a load of cash over the years building my HT and automating/piping music throughout my house, and I must admit that I could have used forums to help me choose my equipment, but instead relied on the tried and tested method of selecting equipment by auditioning equipment.

My reasoning for not using forums (in general) is not because I have a problem with forums, in fact quite the opposite, it is the fact that in the past I found relying on forums exclusively tended to be a mistake for me because some people 'big up' their own equipment whilst 'slagging off' equipment that they do not own. One gent on AVSforum.com summed it up best when he said, 'you can go onto any of the official support forum threads and find that in each one the owners of that particular product say 'their' systems hit harder, go lower/louder, sound cleaner, play music better etc, etc' than any other product.

Having learnt the hard way with a few smaller purchases using forums, I tend now to take everything with a pinch of salt.

That said; on this forum I have developed quite a soft spot for our very own russel.williams and moofly (to name but two) and have to say that I read their posts with interest and admiration. Keep up the good work guys.

----------

All of the above aside, general forum opinions of the Velodyne DD range over the years and my own limited experience, have consistently shown trends/examples that point to the logical conclusion that the DD range of subwoofers from Velodyne are the money no object, audiophiles subwoofer of choice. Yes, other ID brand and self build subwoofers may go louder & deeper whilst costing less, but what a lot of people forget is that Velodyne didn't launch the original DD range to compete with 'that' crowd then, and they are not launching 'this' range to compete with 'that crowd' now. They are still aiming squarely at the audio connoisseur who has the money to spend on a product that not only sounds amazing (I am hoping) but is also amazingly well built and has a support network to back it up.

Oh; in case you haven't guessed already, I have splashed the cash on a DD15+ and am now awaiting its arrival into the country!!! Biased much? what a hypocrite for posting opinion not fact on a forum I hear you scream..... yep - that's me :hiya:

Basically my choice for the DD+ range was not made lightly and with a £5k budget to play with, it wasn't as if I was shy of choices. So why did I order something I hadn't actually listened to? I am amazed to tell you it is primarily because of other peoples previous experiences with Velodyne, my own limited experience with a DD15 I had for a brief period and through a process of elimination both by eliminating other products via demo's and by the misses saying 'nope' a lot.

I have recently demo'ed (as I explained to moonfly) the Sub1 from Paradigm as well as the 'pit bull' and most recently the Sub25. I loved the PB but would need two of them to achieve what I want sonically, defeating the object of going to one subwoofer from two in the first place. The Sub1 was just not to my taste and the Sub25 is too deep for where I plan on positioning it, although i have to say that it was absolutely AWESOME! Other Sub only manufacturers subwoofers I have heard just don't cut it and the ID sub companies and DIYers don't appeal for a number of other reasons. Shame really I am sure the SVS Ultra is great amongst others (seaton submersive etc).

However, as much as I liked the Sub25 (my favorite to date) I still really like the servo control 'element' and the remote control presets of the Velodyne because (for me at least) it offers the highest level of tweaking over the sound quality (forget SPL output for this comparison) and integration into my control system, HT and hi-fi.

Us Brits, in general, have much smaller rooms than our cousins from across the pond and I doubt very much that most of us could get anywhere close to using the xmax of our subwoofer, primarily because our real world usage involves neighbours, wives and most importantly ear drums. Once the show-off period has passed most of use will reign in our subs output levels to those in keeping with the output from the rest of the speakers at normal listening levels. That said, sound quality should be top of everyone's list, not 'down the pub bragging rights' (e.g. top speed in a sports car in a world of speed cameras, potholes and other road users is useless; realistically ride comfort and an engine with loads of torque partnered with build quality is most useful and pleasurable on a day to day basis)

Basically I love HT, but after re-discovered music and pre-ordered the new GX range as a result (I heard them at the Bristol show) I defo need a musical subwoofer that has dynamic headroom for films. Having owned 2 x MX125mk2s for several years (and then that DD15 for a short period) I can tell you that I have high expectations for the new DD15+.

As soon as it does arrive I am going to write a (probably totally end user biased) review and take some snaps and videos of it in action so you all have a little more info to go on at my expense.

I am off now to try to catch Rob Morse or Chris Hagen's attention in order to bend their ears over best practice for placement in a small room and how best to ustilse the software to my advantage.


Alangner
 
I really liked the MK125's, they were some of the most musical subs Ive heard. If your putting the velos up with that then they should be excellent. Look forward to your feedback :smashin:
 

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