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Upscale old videogames to 1080p?

Discussion in 'Video Scalers & Video Processing' started by Linkintones, Aug 6, 2007.

  1. Linkintones

    Linkintones Member

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    I really want to buy a 1080p TV for Blu-ray/HD DVD/Xbox 360/PlayStation 3 etc., but I am afraid that all my old videogames and DVDs will look very bad if I would compare with my High End CRT-television. Therefore I am thinking about buying a scaler that upscales it to 1080p.

    I already have a RGB scart-switch that looks like this:

    [​IMG]

    I am thinking about connecting it to a Scart to VGA converter:

    [​IMG]

    And then connect it to a scaler like this one maybe:

    http://www.atlona.com/product.php?productid=17182&cat=305&page=1

    I will also connect my DVD-player, Denon DVD-2900, to the scaler by a component-cable.


    What do you think about my idea? Will my Sega Mega Drive games look acceptable? Will the scaler deinterlace the signal without visible flaws? Is there a better solution?

    I will soon buy a 40” Sony or Samsung LCD HDTV and I really want my old videogames and DVDs to look flawless on the set. In the worst case I have to buy a 720p set.
  2. choddo2006

    choddo2006 Active Member

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    They almost certainly won't look flawless. Even using a vp50, the PS2 looks ropey. Megadrive games output at PAL resolution over component by the Virtual Console on the Wii are pretty clean though. I expect going through RGB SCART & conversions they'll suffer a fair bit. You should worry about latency too, check out if that Atlona box can process a signal inside a 30th or two.
  3. Linkintones

    Linkintones Member

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    Please tell me how I can check that? I have never owned a scaler before and I am new to all this.


    Which do you think will be the best solution for me:

    scart-switch + scart to vga-box + scaler + 1080p tv
    or
    just scart-switch + 720p tv?

    Right now I am thinking about buying a Sony 40" D3000 instead of a 1080p-panel tv. Then I can connect my scart-switch to the tv and it probably won't look as bad as on a 1080p set.


    These are the consoles that I use:

    [USA] Super Nintendo
    [EUR] Nintendo Wii
    [JAP] Sega Mega Drive
    [JAP] Sega Mega CD
    [JAP] Super 32X
    [USA] Sega Saturn
    [EUR] Sega Dreamcast (Japanese BIOS + Chipped)
    [EUR] Sony PlayStation 2 (Chipped)
    [JAP] SNK Neo Geo AES (RGB + Stereo-mod)

    All consoles are connected through RGB-scart and look great on my current CRT-television.


    I really want to use my Denon DVD-2900 for viewing DVDs, but it cannot do upscaling. Do you think that it will look bad on a 720p set like the Sony D3000?
  4. Joe Fernand

    Joe Fernand Active Member Assured Advertiser

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    Hello Linkintones

    Your best option is stick with your CRT TV for your legacy SD Consoles and build an HD system for your New HD Sources.

    Your Denon player will fair better than your Consoles on a New HD Resolution Display.

    Joe
  5. Linkintones

    Linkintones Member

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    Joe Fernand,

    I know, but I only have room for one TV and I want a bigger screen than the 32" CRT that I have now. :(

    Let's say that old videogames is my top priority:

    1. Old video games

    2. DVDs 480p/576p

    3. HD 720p

    4. HD 1080p

    Maybe a plasma with a resolution of 1024x768 would better fit my needs? Too bad there is a risk of burn-ins.


    There must exist a 37"/40"/42" television that old videogames can be played on. Take Sonic the Hedgehog for Sega Mega Drive as an example. There should be minimal smearing and motion judder (preferably none at all) when Sonic is running at top speed.

    Have anyone of you tried playing Sonic the Hedgehog on a flatscreen?
  6. Joe Fernand

    Joe Fernand Active Member Assured Advertiser

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    Hello Linkintones

    How about a Projector for the HD Sources?

    Of course its possible to plug the Legacy gear into a large PDP or LCD - just don't expect it to look good up close; you can have a larger image but you'll need to sit further away!

    Joe
  7. Liam @ Prog AV

    Liam @ Prog AV Active Member Assured Advertiser

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    Plug it in and put up with it. Older consoles won't look brilliantly hot on any kind of large screen, dedicated video processing I don't think is going to give you the improvements you are after. Changing the resolution of the set is not gonna be a great deal of difference, it will always need to be scaled to something and more importantly will always need deinterlacing if you get some kind of HD display. I would just get the display and let some games look naff and others less so!
  8. Linkintones

    Linkintones Member

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    Liam @ Prog AV,


    You are right. I will probably buy a Sony 40" D3000 soon as it is praised for its great picture on SD-content. An 1080p television is not an option for me as I will use the tv mostly for SD-content. Or maybe I should hunt down a 720p capable Sony CRT? ;)
  9. Liam @ Prog AV

    Liam @ Prog AV Active Member Assured Advertiser

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    There's no Sony praising coming from me!!! I'd get a Panasonic or better a Fuji plasma if I were you. Burn isn't that much of a worry after runnning in time, the picture will certainly be better.

    1080p is wholly unnecessary at circa 40" screen size for video. Excepting if being a gamer you will go for PS3 and Xbox 360 and will want to sit very close in which case it will prove advantageous to you. My advice would be a Panasonic 42" plasma for similar sort of money to the D300. Or if you have the budget to get something with very good SD video processing get the Fujitsu 42" Plasma P42XHA58EB (£1,895 rrp) or 37" AVIAMO 1080p LCD (£3,245 rrp).
  10. Linkintones

    Linkintones Member

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    None of the plasmas that you recommended have either Scart or VGA inputs and they are quite expensive too. :( I was thinking about spending about max £1,200 on my new tv. Have you seen the Sony D3000 range in action?

    I might be interested in buying a plasma if the Panasonic PZ700 will come in 37" size.
  11. Liam @ Prog AV

    Liam @ Prog AV Active Member Assured Advertiser

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    Panasonic vieras have 2 or 3 scarts, 2 or 3 HDMIs and a VGA??? Or the PH series can have an optional scart board installed.

    Fuji doesn't, but an RGB-YUV converter attached to your scart switch would fix that no probs.

    Have seen the Sony, don't like it. Don't like many LCDs though to be honest! With £1,200 you could get:

    42" Panasonic 42PH10 (£770)
    Scart (£100) & HDMI (£90) (also has VGA, S-Video and AV)
    Wall Mount (£49) or Desk Stand (£100)

    Plus £100-150 left to get some cables
  12. Joe Fernand

    Joe Fernand Active Member Assured Advertiser

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    Hello Linkintones

    You were going to spend a fair few £££ on a Scaling solution on top of a 1920x1080 pixel Display - where's your budget gone :)

    A Panasonic 42" (TH-42PH10BK) or 50" (TH-50PH10BK) 'Display' is your best option - you can Spec them with an optional SCART Board (TY-FB8SC) .

    Joe
  13. Linkintones

    Linkintones Member

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    Joe Fernand,

    At first I was thinking about buying a Xbox 360 Elite later this year, but then I thought about buying a good scaler instead + a 1080p tv. But now I really want to play some Xbox 360 soon! :)

    Thank you both for the tip, but I cannot find this tv anywhere in Sweden! :( What makes this plasma so good? What is the difference with Panasonic 42PH10 and Panasonic TH-42PX70?
  14. Joe Fernand

    Joe Fernand Active Member Assured Advertiser

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  15. choddo2006

    choddo2006 Active Member

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    I've played Sonic (Wii VC over component @576i, not MD original) on my PHD8 and it's very, very smooth & solid. The PH10 processing would be good enough on that sort of input to give a similar result I'd suggest.
  16. Linkintones

    Linkintones Member

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    choddo2006, Thank you for your input about Sonic. So you have not connected your Wii to your scaler?

    The problem right now is that I cannot find any retailer that have the PH10 (or even the PH9) in Sweden.

    How sensitive is the PH10 against burn ins after the initial 200 hours? Can I play a game for more than an hour that have a healthbar or something at the same place?
  17. choddo2006

    choddo2006 Active Member

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    Sorry, yes I have connected it to my scaler but I've also connected my PS2 to my scaler & got results nowhere near as solid.

    If the PH10 is anything like my screen, it's not remotely sensitive to burn-in. Besides, I find most games even with HUDs don't leave them in the same place forever, loading screens etc tend to interrupt.
  18. Linkintones

    Linkintones Member

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    I have found a retailer in Sweden that can get a 42" PH10 for me. But I am a bit unsure if the PH10 is the best solution for me. 1024x768 is either high res or widescreen/16:9.

    The DVDO iScan VP50 looks very nice, but it is a bit pricey. Will I loose a lot in quality if I would buy a VP20 or VP30 instead?

    How much worse will it look if I would pair a DVDO iScan with a 1080p lcd tv comparing to a ph10 or similar plasma? I know that the contrast is superior on the PH10/plasmas in general and that a 1080p-panel will have better sharpness.

    Are there no 37"/40"/42" lcd or plasma that already have a great performing deinterlacer/scaler? I cannot lie to myself, I really want enjoy the 1080p in all its glory.

    By the way, it is a shame that even the DVDO iScan VP50 cannot make the PS2-games look any well on a flatscreen. I wonder how much of a difference the iScan really would make if I would connect it to my older consoles.
  19. Joe Fernand

    Joe Fernand Active Member Assured Advertiser

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    Hello Linktones

    1920x1080 pixel arrays generally look very good with 1080i/1080p and increasingly poor with lesser signals – the poorer the Source the poorer the on-screen image will be; adding in a VP can help but wont ever make your legacy consoles look great.

    An 852x480 or 1024x768 pixel resolution Panasonic PDP will also look excellent with your HD sources and, possibly more importantly for you, wont look as poor with your Legacy gear.

    Unless you go with two Displays your going to have to compromise somewhere.

    Joe

    PS Panasonic claim the Series 10 Displays are not affected by permanent Burn In – all Panasonic Displays include user definable 'screen wash' routines as these units are often used in Public Display Digital Signage installations where burn in is a big issue.
  20. Linkintones

    Linkintones Member

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    Joe Fernand,

    Do I need an iScan or is the built in scaler/deinterlacer in the Panasonic PH10 good enough for HD and SD?

    I have heard that it is better to convert the RGB-scart signal to VGA with a signal converter as the PH10 can handle VGA-signals better than scart. Is that true?

    When was the 42" PH10 released? Maybe there will come a 42" PH 1366 x 768 panasonic plasma soon?
  21. choddo2006

    choddo2006 Active Member

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    Panny have been using 1024x768 for a long time, I'd be surprised if they switch to a 1366x768 (which they use on the 50") any time soon. It would be nice if they could use the new 1920x1080 glass from the 42pz700 at some stage in a 42" commercial panel.
  22. Linkintones

    Linkintones Member

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    I just saw that there is a 37" PH10. 37" is the right size for me as I do not have so much space for the tv.

    choddo2006,

    How does your PHD8 perform when deinterlacing/scaling? It would be great if I do not need to buy a scaler to get a nice picture when watching dvds and playing games.

    Maybe I should convert the RGB-scart signal to VGA or does it make any difference?
  23. Joe Fernand

    Joe Fernand Active Member Assured Advertiser

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    Hello Linktones

    For a long time Panasonic argued that 1920x1080 was overkill at 50” and below – the market said otherwise and they now produce both; though only the 50” 'Commercial' model is available in the UK/Europe.

    Its unlikely we'll see a 1366x768 42” model – if there's enough market pressure we may see the 1920x1080 42” 'Commercial' model in the UK/Europe; though no talk of it so far.

    For lots of folk the video processing engine in the Panasonic Displays does everything they require – for others the likes of DVDO, Lumagen and PMS offer more finesse and accuracy.

    I'd suggest starting with the TH-42PH10 and direct connection from your Sources and then introduce a VP if you find there are problems that need addressing.

    I haven't tried the SCART Board in the 10 Series – I'd be surprised if Panasonic have messed it up again. They did have a problem on the 7 Series but got it sorted on the 8 and 9 series.

    Converting a 576i 50hz RGB+Composite sync signal to RGBHV does work well – though keep in mind you loose the ability to adjust the colour decoder in the Display; for that reason some folk prefer to use an RGB to YUV converter (it produces a slightly softer image though you do have control of the colour decoder in the Display).

    The HD15 (VGA) Input on the Display is compatible with RGBHV and YUV signals.

    Joe
  24. Linkintones

    Linkintones Member

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    Ok, I will go for the PH10, but which solution for connecting my consoles should I use? A lot of my games are in 60Hz and 256x224.


    Here are my three alternatives:

    1. Only RGB-scart:
    [​IMG]

    2. From RGB-scart to YUV:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    3. From RGB-scart to VGA:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
  25. choddo2006

    choddo2006 Active Member

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    Personally I'd go for RGB switcher to RGB-VGA conversion. So what consoles output 256x224 over RGB SCART?

    I've never tried out the deinterlacing in the phd8, only ever had it attached to a scaler or a VGA source like xbox360 / PC.
  26. Linkintones

    Linkintones Member

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    Okay, I first thought about going for a RGB -> YUV converter, but I have heard that the PH10 handles the VGA-signals best (except HDMI, I guess). So I better listen to you and go for the VGA conversion/input board then! ;)

    This converter looks very nice:

    [​IMG]


    I connect all these consoles through my RGB-scart switch and the consoles have these different resolutions:

    Sega Mega Drive: 320x224
    SNK Neo Geo AES: 320x224
    Super Nintendo: 256x224
    Sega Mega CD: 320x224
    Sega Super 32X: 320x224
    Sega Saturn: 640x224, max 704x480
    Sega Dreamcast: 640x480
    Sony PlayStation 2: from 256x224 to 1280x1024
    Nintendo Wii: 4:3 or 16:9 480i

    All the consoles have the ability to output a RGB-signal through scart. The PS2 and Wii are the only consoles I always have plugged in. The other consoles are for replaying my favorite retro and nostalgia games! :)


    My 42" PH10 will be ordered on monday and I hope I will be happy with it. I have not heard any complaints about this set so far. I guess I should wait until after the initial 200 hours before I start messing with the settings?

    Is the DVE DVD the best choice for calibrating the PH10? I will not buy a Xbox 360 + HD DVD until November so I'll go for a DVD calibration disc for now.

    Is an ISF calibration worth the price? Is it possible to do an ISF calibration by yourself?

    My PH10 will go for £1200 including all the input-boards. The cables + VGA-converter will go for £310, so it will be quite expensive! :rolleyes:

    These are the input boards and the stand I will order:

    TY-42TM6Z (component)
    TY-42TM6P (VGA)
    TY-FB8HM (HDMI)
    TY-ST08-K (black, desk stand)

    Are all these compatible with the 42" PH10?
  27. Joe Fernand

    Joe Fernand Active Member Assured Advertiser

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    Hello Linktones
    The JS Technology converters all work very well – if possible I'd suggest finding a Dealer that can supply both the RGB2VGA and the RGB2YUV and let you test them both with your Sources.

    The PH10 has an integrated HD15(VGA) port – you can use it for RGBHV or YPbPr

    The Input Boards you list look fine - some folk would prefer to use the BNC rather than the RCA Board for YPbPr as BNC 'locks' into place.

    ISF teach a calibration 'methodology' – anyone can 'Calibrate' a Display; though the cost of the Test Gear and experience required to do it very well makes calling in a Pro the more practical solution for most folk.

    DVE is good for ensuring your DVD player/Display are 'optimised' – its not much use for your other Sources.

    You may also want to consider a Datacolor SpyderTV – again its for optimising your DVD; though this time your not relying on your eye to get the optimum results. There are also useful third party guides on how to use it to 'calibrate' other Sources.

    For those of us who started out with Plasma back in the days of 11K for a 40” VGA monitor it looks like your getting a bargain :)

    Joe
  28. Linkintones

    Linkintones Member

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    Is it worth the extra cash for the more expensive converter?

    This one costs £71.
    [​IMG]

    And this one costs £112.
    [​IMG]

    It says "plasma VGA converter" on the second one, but will it truly make any difference for me? (I do not need the extra RCA-plugs as I already have some on my scart switch)


    Can you recommend any good value VGA-cables? I need one 1m + one 6,5m.

    The cables that I might buy now costs £150 for one 8m cable + one 1m cable. They are great cables, but not so cheap. I would prefer cheaper cables, but I do of course want all my cables to be of good quality.


    EDIT: I choose to go for the JS. Technology converter as it seem to be of great quality and I will also go for the cables I originally was going to buy. There is no comprimise if I truly want the best picture.

    Let's just hope that everything will work well!
  29. Joe Fernand

    Joe Fernand Active Member Assured Advertiser

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    Hello Linkintones

    I've always favoured the JS Technology converters – they are 'local' to us, work very well, service is great and I've never heard a bad word about one of John's products.

    Joe
  30. Linkintones

    Linkintones Member

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    Wonderful. They look very nice too! I have found a used JS. Technology converter, but it comes with a powercable which has the UK-plug. Can I connect an ordinary Swedish powercable to it?


    I've read about the Datacolor SpyderTV and it seem to be a better buy than the DVE disc. Can you buy only the sensor somewhere?

    I would like to use the Spyder-sensor with this wonderful free "colormeter": http://www.homecinema-fr.com/colorimetre/index_en.php

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