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The JVC, Sony and Epson Winter showdown

Discussion in 'Projectors' started by jagdeepp, Dec 2, 2012.

  1. soupdragon

    soupdragon Active Member

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    This particular comment of the visible/invisible building got me curious as to whether my projector could reveal it. I wanted to create a photo so that Mooro could point to me where it is - but the photo wouldn't be much use if the building was invisible in my photo too.

    Sooooo......

    1st up, I got Dr Darbee and cranked him up to 120% HD as he's pretty good at bringing highlights to the deep shadows (I normally have him around 50% on this projector)

    I've got 10 default gamma settings on the VW85 so I messed with them all to reveal as much shadow detail as possible. I was pleased to find that my gamma was spot on and I already had the best setting for this particular scene.

    There was also the danger of under-exposing the photgraph which would result in crushed blacks and therefore defeat the objective of revealing the building. I therefore took several photos at various exposures and looked at the details revealed in the brightest image and worked my way back towards the darkest images. The images with crushed blacks I dumped and I picked the image with the darkest look, but that still retained all the detail. This is the image I posted. It will look a bit different on everyone's screen but on my iMac, it was a bit brighter than the projected image.
    This means my actual projected image is a bit blacker than this (the over exposure raises blacks) and it also means there is some detail in the photograph that I would struggle to resolve with my naked eye when looking at this scene on my projector, as it would be too dark.

    So there we have it.

    My objective was to show the scene in question and have mooro point out where the building is. As it stands, mooro made his own pics which shows it anyway so it was a complete waste of time:facepalm:

    Ah well, I had nothing better to do anyway - my pre-order of the Dark Knight Rises still hasn't arrived yet :(
  2. mooro1973

    mooro1973 Member

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    True Kelvin re iris but remember we had this disabled throughout the whole test.
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  3. soupdragon

    soupdragon Active Member

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    Your spot on!
  4. KelvinS1965

    KelvinS1965 Well-Known Member

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    I'd missed that bit, which further surprises me that the black levels were as good on the Sony as the JVC as native on/off is only around 6-7000:1 on the Sony verses maybe 30-35,000:1 at full zoom/half iris on the X55. I'm quite puzzled by it all...maybe I should go and buy a Panasonic (NOT!). :D
  5. krichter1

    krichter1 Member

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    I didn't have a whole lot of time to do this but I too was curious after seeing the X3 photos vs. Soup's 85 pics so I went downstairs and took a couple quick snaps of my JVC RS55 (21pt cal only on Lumagen mini as I haven't got around to doing the 3D LUT yet). I run more about 2.15 gamma on avg using STD CP @D65. Keep in mind this is freehand and w/ the PJ only on about 10min. (and the Darblet OFF). But something has to be crushing blacks on that X3 IMO because I can clearly delineate the buildings on the left and the pics look poor compared to what I see in the theater...

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]

    :)
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2012
  6. soupdragon

    soupdragon Active Member

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    The RS55/X70 is a fair step ahead of the X3 with its improved constrast and e-shift. It will actually be very interested to see Zombie's shootout on AVS with the X70 up against the newer X55, with the better contrast X70 versus the new and improved e-shift on the X55. It may actually be cheaper to get a close out deal on an X70 than the new X55 so it will be a very interesting discussion.

    As for your 10 minute warm up time, maybe you should let it run a little longer and switch on the Darbee - your missing some boats on the river :devil:

    [​IMG]
  7. HAWK-EYE

    HAWK-EYE Member

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    [​IMG]

    My eyes can pick this detail out on screen photographing was tricky but this is the best i could do.
    Had to overexpose with high iso to show the detail available seen in real life with gamma correctly set (15 squares highlighted as explained in x30-x70-x90 thread)
  8. soupdragon

    soupdragon Active Member

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    Wow!

    The shadow detail in this scene is simply incredible. It just goes to show how much detail is in the blu-ray disk. A lot of us won't be able to actually see some of this detail in the scene due to the limitations of our projector/room/eyesight. I admitted that with my image, some of it I couldn't see with the naked eye and only over exposure brought it out in the photograph. If you can actually see all this finer detail on your screen I think your either (a) an owl (b) a bit economic with the truth or (c) in possession of a very nice projector ;)
  9. soupdragon

    soupdragon Active Member

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    Thinking out loud....

    This thread has had over 3000 views already - I wonder how many people have went to the 37:12 time stamp in TDK to see how it looks on their set-up!
  10. witchdrash

    witchdrash Member

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    I've been trying to find my dark knight blu-ray, without success, damn boxes still full of junk from moving!
  11. zombie10k

    zombie10k Member

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    do you know how long it took me to realize this screenshot was from TDK and not the TDKR? My RS55 is perfect in this scene, it looks just like Kevins.

    I'm calibrating a 2nd HW50 today, the buzzing in 3D is much less on this model than the first I saw a few weeks ago. You can still hear it, but it's more quiet than it was before.

    The JVC's should be landing very soon in the US, so we'll continue the showdown as well. I'm still waiting on the Mitsubishi HC8000 glasses.
  12. soupdragon

    soupdragon Active Member

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    Yes, its a very good scene with amazing depth in the shadow detail. Glad your RS55 looks like Kevins and not Hawk-eye's with the red blacks ;)
    In my room I can only see about 80% of what is shown in the pics with my naked eye, the rest isn't visible unfortunately. You really don't know what your missing until you see little experiments like this, quite an eye opener. I've 1200 hrs on the lamp so a bulb change will likely help here.

    Looking forward to seeing the JVC's land with you and also the AVF reviewers have got the X55 and X75 on their doorsteps so loads more info to come in the coming week or 2 :thumbsup:
  13. Steve Stifler

    Steve Stifler Member

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    Soupdragon
    I think that the 37 minute still from TDK will be going down in AVF folk lore as a must use test image for assessing black level and shadow detail picture performance for PJs. Yep had a look too!
  14. soupdragon

    soupdragon Active Member

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    Indeed, it's a reference scene all right, thanks to Jagadeep, Mooro and Ricky J for finding that gem.
    Kudos also goes to the producers and the detailed blu ray master- it's clear why many regard this as a reference disk for picture quality. Too often you watch movies and the blacks are crushed no matter how good your set up is.
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  15. mooro1973

    mooro1973 Member

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    Had another play with my x3. Used the avs calibration disc to set black/white. Read on a forum that a custom gamma of 2.2/2.3 was pretty accurate o.o.t.b.

    This is what happened:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Wow! What an improvement. This taken with a mobile phone too.

    Jagdeep and I have been having a chuckle this evening about how 37:12 has gone viral. Funny old world.
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  16. Rickyj @ Kalibrate

    Rickyj @ Kalibrate Active Member Assured Advertiser

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    I have just managed to get the X55 out of the box after the Sunday shootout. The settings are the same, and I can see much more shadow detail than I did on Sun, including `the building`. I can only think the black signal was being crushed due to a handshake or something else as the brightness was set up at the demo....?
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    Last edited: Dec 5, 2012
  17. KelvinS1965

    KelvinS1965 Well-Known Member

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    What source was used for this film Ricky? Just wondering if there was an offset black level if it was the media player/PC (though I know you did have a BluRay player as well).

    Or maybe the JVC switched to 'normal' HDMI when it should have been 'Enhanced' (or whatever the X55 calls it) as that would crush black detail and no gamma tweaks would help in this case?
  18. mikeybabes2

    mikeybabes2 Member

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    So the question is - does this invalidate all your hard work over the weekend .... ?

    There seem to be so many settings available that it's hard to have a true side by side comparison, as another tweek to a setting changes everything ...
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2012
  19. Rickyj @ Kalibrate

    Rickyj @ Kalibrate Active Member Assured Advertiser

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    It could quite well of been. I am not a HTPC man, give me a standalone bluray anyday.

    The sony interpreted it correctly, but possibly the JVC did not pick it up right. I don`t know..
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  20. Rickyj @ Kalibrate

    Rickyj @ Kalibrate Active Member Assured Advertiser

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    There was a lot more to the demo than one scene, much of which was run through a bluray player and looked fine;) It is hard to do a side by side, but it can be done..

    This thread is highlighting the importance of basic testing/setup and calibration though:)
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  21. mooro1973

    mooro1973 Member

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    Yes I agree Ricky.

    As for the showdown, I am glad that the JVC does indeed show shadow detail properly. Overall I would still have preferred the Sony, especially with the difference in price. If they had cost the same, then I would have been minded to call it a draw, the Sony for bigger screens, the JVC for smaller.
  22. mikeybabes2

    mikeybabes2 Member

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    Well I'm glad we have you guys to do it for us. I think after an hour or so of testing I'd just stick on a good movie and get out the beer and peanuts - which wouldn't be too helpful for everyone else.:laugh:

    So you guys didn't ....... Nah ... you would't have....
  23. KelvinS1965

    KelvinS1965 Well-Known Member

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    Not sure about Jagdeep and Mooro, but it certainly makes me more hopeful that the JVC could look even better. It does sound like the missing building was a bit of a red herring though and I know Ricky went to a lot of trouble beforehand to calibrate the projectors in order to make it a fair comparison, so it's a shame if a handshaking issue or HTPC 'quirk' effected the result. I think Jag and Mooro preferred the Sony's motion which probably wasn't effected by this issue.

    Personally I'm not committing either way until I've seen the Sony and JVC(again) over at Ricky's place. If it means I miss my Christmas delivery, then so be it as I'd rather be sure than regret it later. I've still got the HD350 anyway, so not like I haven't got anything to watch over the break, but I'd like the next projector to last 3 years if possible, hence my caution.
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  24. mikeybabes2

    mikeybabes2 Member

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    Well, I couldn't wait until the weekend, so I've unboxed my X35 and temporarily set it up on a table. I've really only played 2D stuff, but quite frankly I am thoroughly delighted with it. My last PJ I had for nearly 9 years (mind you it was a good one) and the I can see the X35 keeping me happy for a long time to come.

    I now understand what people mean when they say the JVC is 'filmic'. It sounds like the choice between the Sony & the JVC may be a tough call to make.
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  25. KelvinS1965

    KelvinS1965 Well-Known Member

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    It's more that two avid JVC fans both seemed to prefer the Sony that makes me think I should at least see it. I have a mental block about the dynamic iris (which they didn't even turn on). Cine4home measured the 50ES's contrast with the manual iris and it was less than what they measured for the HD350, so it's not just down to the raw figures (though possibly ANSI contrast as I'm sure I read that the Sony is higher than the JVC).

    Good to hear how happy you are Mikeybabes2. :smashin: I had a horrible sinking feeling when I set up a new projector once and it's not something any AV enthusiast wants to happen. :(
  26. s_inman

    s_inman Active Member

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    Great thread chaps :smashin:.

    I was in the same position recently with regards to an update, in the end I decided to hang on to my 350 for a little longer.. Hope I've made the right choice!
  27. soupdragon

    soupdragon Active Member

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    When it all boils down to it, all the projectors on offer these days are all excellent. You often get threads on the forums on which is the best projector but in reality, there is no such thing as a best projector. There are so many factors which make up a great image, with some preferring great sharpness, or great blacks, or top motion or quick lag times...the list goes on. Add in all the different content we use them for, the different rooms, the different screens - its enough to probably put Einstein's head in a pickle!

    Bearing in mind we've had almost 4000 views and counting on this thread - spare a thought for the newbie's - Any newbie coming along to read some of these threads and also over on AVS, they will have their head melted trying to decipher which one to choose if they can't do a home demo such as Jagadeepp:eek:

    But for all those a little bewildered trying to take it all in (and I include myself in that bewilderment) you can rest assured that they all throw an tremendous image and the scale of 100+ inches in your home theatre is a wonderful thing regardless of which projector it is - all this crazy analysis which I frequently find myself getting sucked into is just for the nut-jobs that want to find the Holy Grail!

    Edit: but it's great being a nut-job and a home theatre enthusiast. I'll take that over being a trainspotter/stamp collector any day :D

    Edit 2: my name is soupdragon and im a projector-holic. It's been 3 weeks since my last projector :blush:
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    Last edited: Dec 6, 2012
  28. crabalocker

    crabalocker Member

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    Hi, I have already pre-ordered the X55 and based on your last sentence, do you think the X55 will have a hard time lighting up my 153"/389cm diagonal or133"/338cm wide 16x9 screen? The X55 will be a 2D movies only machine. My W7000 is the second of my 2 projector set up, used for regular TV, video games and 3D.

    I know the screen you saw it on was bigger than mine, any problems lighting it up?

    Thanks.
  29. mooro1973

    mooro1973 Member

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    No problems at all. Managed to light up a 4m wide screen easily.
  30. mikeybabes2

    mikeybabes2 Member

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    Actually, there was a little wobble. In the dark of the room I put on the DVD rather than the Blu Ray disk of a multi disk movie. When I saw the picture quality for a few seconds I did a double take, until I realised my mistake....:blush:

    I've always been a fan of Sony, they have made some fantastic stuff over the years. However, I've got the JVC now and I'm very pleased with it. I'll wait to mess with 3D until after I've installed it properly, but I can't watch 3D on my TV for very long, and I don't think it will be any different on a PJ.

    Anyway, I've just had to pack it all up until the weekend when I've got to get it all wired in permanently, but couldn't resist a little play.

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