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The JVC, Sony and Epson Winter showdown

Discussion in 'Projectors' started by jagdeepp, Dec 2, 2012.

  1. soupdragon

    soupdragon Active Member

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    The Sony implementation of Dynamic Iris is excellent. I've had a few DI PJ's and the Sony I have found to be invisible on both the Sony HW10 and the VW85. I actually had to go back and double check I had it engaged as I couldn't see any shifting or hear any noise.
    The recent BenQ I had was different, as you could hear it and also see the brightness pump as it went from dark to light scenes - but not on the Sony's. I have the DI permenantly engaged :thumbsup:
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  2. mooro1973

    mooro1973 Member

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    The 3d is better on the x55 than the x3. Brighter,punchier and less x talk. However the same can be said for the hw50 versus the x55. Also of note is how cheap and plastic the new JVC glasses are. They do not feel like a premium product at all.

    Regarding the "Dark Knight" ghost building at 37:12. On the shot there are two large skyscrapers. Look at the one to the left. To the left bottom of this are two much shorter towers. On the JVC we could not see the leftmost of these two.
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  3. HAWK-EYE

    HAWK-EYE Member

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    Unless the projectors were calibrated to the same Lumen output shadow details etc etc would be a waste of time comparing.
  4. Little pussy cat

    Little pussy cat Member

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    If the blacks are same and sony is visibly brighter and has visibly better shadow detail, that makes it better on my book.
  5. HAWK-EYE

    HAWK-EYE Member

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    Agreed if the gamma is the same for both.
  6. UdoG

    UdoG Member

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    Is an additional test planned with the Epson TW9100 resp. 6020?
  7. mooro1973

    mooro1973 Member

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    We tried all different available gammas for the JVC, including some custom changes and there was no sign of this building showing up.
  8. sammy the squid

    sammy the squid Active Member

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    Says the man that's been posting stills of stills for comparison purposes:laugh:
  9. sammy the squid

    sammy the squid Active Member

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    Kudos to to Ricky for making all the kit available to demo in one room. Just goes to show you can't always come to an accurate conclusion by checking out the various pjs in different environments over a varying period of time. Well done for identifying the best pj solution for your room..screen looks excellent by the way :)
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  10. KelvinS1965

    KelvinS1965 Well-Known Member

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    I've spent last night and most of today trying to work out what I'm going to do myself. :rolleyes: Such a shame I didn't get to see the Sony myself just to compare, even though there are a few reasons why I think it wouldn't suit my smaller screen set up: I have a feeling it would be too bright for my taste and not being able to precisely control the light output without wasting on/off contrast is one reason, plus there is no option to go back to zooming with the '50ES, so I would have to keep the lens. Part of my upgrade aim is to get a more discrete set up with the white projector and lack of lens means a shallower shelf. If I had a room like Jagdeepps then I wouldn't be so bothered about trying to make it all 'look pretty'. :suicide:

    I just can't decide right now if I go for the X55 and sell my lens, X35 and keep the lens or something else altogether. I think in some ways I didn't really get such a 'wow' effect with the new model, but some of that is possibly due to it being run at full zoom. This is the complete opposite to my HD350 so I wonder just how much real world difference there is in on/off contrast between yesterday's demo and what I'm used to at home.

    Anyway, I've got my '350 on right now, so going to have a play with zooming against the lens to try to get one thing straight in my mind. Just to double check my brightness levels of zooming verses lens us as I'm sure last time it didn't show hardly any difference, but some discussions over on AVS seem to suggest I must be wrong, so I'm rechecking.

    One thing is for sure and that's how good the older models like my HD350 are, so the improvements (IMHO) seem to be getting smaller, less 'night and day'.
  11. HAWK-EYE

    HAWK-EYE Member

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    If thats the case these new models could have a design flaw if you still could not see the building in the Dark Knight scene.

    caveat emptor
  12. pRot3us

    pRot3us Active Member

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    Thanks for the comparison guys, I've been waiting for comparisons between the HW50 and JVC, particularly in terms of black level. It'll be some way into next year before I consider upgrading, but I've had the HW50 in my sights and it's looking like my number one contender now.

    I think I may even treat myself to a darbee for xmas even though I am still sceptical about what it can do. I hate a digital/processed image and am always looking for a good filmic image, and given some of the films in my collection I wonder what on earth it could bring to something like Casablanca.
  13. KelvinS1965

    KelvinS1965 Well-Known Member

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    Well if you didn't like it, you could always turn the Darbee off and 'play it again'. :D
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  14. Wull

    Wull Active Member

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    Yep, keep the 350 and lens and wait for the next improved PJ's :)
  15. Wull

    Wull Active Member

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    What did you paint onto jag, I'm guessing straight onto the wall being that wide?
  16. KelvinS1965

    KelvinS1965 Well-Known Member

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    It's maybe the sensible option I suppose, but since when was I sensible (buying the Z3 3.0 this year as a toy, etc :D )? Maybe I'll just respray the HD350 white to fit in with the decor...
  17. witchdrash

    witchdrash Member

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    I really need to stop reading these threads, suddenly that credit card with a high limit is look very tempting :)
  18. Ideal AV

    Ideal AV Well-Known Member Assured Advertiser

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    trust me Kelvin thats a lot easier than changing the case :suicide:

    sounds like you all had a great day and theirs been some fantastic feedback

    well done to Ricky and the guys :smashin:
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  19. soupdragon

    soupdragon Active Member

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    As I mentioned, curiosity is getting the better of me. Here is a pic of 37:12 time stamp. So where are the 2 buildings you are referring to as there are so many!

    [​IMG]
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  20. jagdeepp

    jagdeepp Active Member

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    Hi. Yes, straight onto the wall. A very gentle rub down and then slapped on a coat at a time of matte white using an 'ultra fine' wickes roller. The results are very good. To get a screen this size would cost in the region of around £1500 unless i did a diy frame but even then, stretching fabric etc can be a pain and after a while i fear it may sag. Particularly in light of the fabric width.

    For the sake of completeness I should perhaps clarify my unequivocal view on the PJ's. The clear winner for my room layout, image size, 3D and 2D needs and comfort is the Sony HW50E. If I were looking at the under £3k bracket I'd say Sony.. If I raised this to the under £5k bracket I'd say.. Sony... If I raised this to the under £20k bracket I'd probably say the Sony 1000E. My only criticism is the lack of lens memory. An RF emitter would probably also help as its generally got better range than IR.

    Again, many thanks to RickyJ. What a diamond guy. Totally and completely unbiased and his knowledge of all things AV was second to none. I'll have a Sony HW50E and Darbee please!
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  21. mooro1973

    mooro1973 Member

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    Soupdragon,

    Let the camera pan more to the left. From memory another tall tower appears and it the buildings to the left of this.
  22. Scifi

    Scifi Member

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    Last weekend I went up to see Allan and had a demo of the Sony HW50 and the JVC X35 and I must admit I don't think the Sony is such a clear winner, after watching Avatar in 3D on the JVC then switching to the Sony we noticed the picture was brighter but also looked washed out, although it did appear sharper in 3D it wasn't sharper all of the time, the scene where all the floaty things land on Jake the JVC was much sharper and the floaty things were wighter on the Sony they were grey and blurry.

    The Sony also seems to loose colour in 3D this was easily seen when you remove the 3D glasses then put them back on whilst watching-is it due to the lenses being yellow?, JVC on the other hand had much more vivid colours and better blacks there was also more depth in the 3D, you felt you could see further into the jungle also the black panther like animals were blacker and looked wet, slimey and more scary!

    I would say the Sony looked more like a TV picture and the scene where they get out of the helicopter thing in the jungle there are two tall blue people and a normal army person in the foreground the normal army person looked like he was not really there, that he was added in to the film post filming - ok I know a lot of it is added in digitally and some of the blue people rant real ;) but the fact is you shouldn't be able to notice it, it was almost comical how he was just looking around and not part of the film.

    I had pretty much made my mind up that the Sony was the one for me due to the reality creation and extra brightness yet when I demoed them both the JVC just wowed me with its colours and blacks, I did however notice some cross talk in despicable me on the JVC yet the overall picture was so vivid it was not a major problem and then when we saw Avatar there was no cross talk at all just an amazing picture.

    At the end of the day it all comes down to personal preference so it always pays to go see them all for yourself
  23. soupdragon

    soupdragon Active Member

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    Ok here we go:

    [​IMG]
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  24. mooro1973

    mooro1973 Member

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    Your picture is incredible.

    You can also clearly see the two buildings.

    I had a play with my x3 tonight:

    [​IMG]

    This was with standard gamma.

    [​IMG]

    This with enhanced picture mode.

    [​IMG]

    This with standard mode but gamma A.

    AS you see in the first image, gamma normal, standard mode, the left of the buildings is not there. This was the same as on the x55, and no amount of swapping gamma/iris/lamp/zooming out would bring it back.
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    Last edited: Dec 3, 2012
  25. chienmetallique

    chienmetallique Member

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    Is this the Sony vpl-hw80?
  26. soupdragon

    soupdragon Active Member

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    It's the vw85
  27. chienmetallique

    chienmetallique Member

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    Seems to me you won't be changing?
  28. Avi

    Avi Well-Known Member

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    I suspect it's gamma related. It would be interesting to have detailed measurement of the luminance curve from the different models to establish what's being applied at the appropriate setting.

    Some products may use a custom curve versus flat power law etc and depending on the range and granularity of adjustments in the display chain it may be more or less difficult to achieve a certain goal. I was able to recreate results similar to the images posted above by applying different gamma curves. It's also worth bearing in mind that gamma can be used to exaggerate image elements (see image)that wouldn't usually be as visible applying the typical gamma levels employed during content creation. The effect can be similar to how different exposure settings suppress or accentuate elements of an image when taking photos.

    Avi

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Dec 4, 2012
  29. soupdragon

    soupdragon Active Member

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    There's a bit of skull duggery going on with my photo, more on that later :devil:
  30. KelvinS1965

    KelvinS1965 Well-Known Member

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    Shame I don't have this disc (not a Batman fan myself) as I'd love the challenge of trying to see if I could get the second building to 'appear' using my Lumagen (or if it is already present with my current calibration).

    There is also the issue that on a darker scene the Sony's iris will close down, but also it will ramp up the gamma and contrast on some parts of the image to attempt to keep the highlights at the same level as 'pre iris'. This could make certain details more visible, so it could be that even with a 'perfect' calibration on the JVC that the second building isn't as visible. I am more baffled that it wasn't visible at all though as swopping the gamma settings is possibly a little coarse, you would have thought that one setting would bring it in. I also wonder if the Eshift was on for this test as there is the contrast setting in the MPC menu, wondering if this does anything to effect it as well.

    Probably all questions I could answer for myself if I had an X55 for a day or so, but as of now I'm not convinced that it gives enough of an improvement over what I have now to justify the extra cost over the X35. Might be tempted just to go for the X35 option purely to get a white case (and the OH happy ;)) and of course a new lamp. Take £600-700 off for the old HD350 in the classifieds and it's a pretty minor purchase compared to over £4k for the X55 minus the HD350 resale.

    I really enjoyed going over to Jagdeepp's place, but the short time I had has left me with more questions than answers right now. Probably better not to rush to any orders just yet for me anyway...

    PS: Jagdeepp, your PM inbox is full. ;)
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2012

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