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Sony PS3's Entitlements Explained (You can't sell your used games!!!)

Discussion in 'PS3 Forum' started by Prime, Sep 12, 2006.

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  1. Prime

    Prime Member

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    See 2nd Post For A Non-Technical Summary:

    http://www.neogaf.com/index.php?opti...29&Itemi d=32

    GAF's top technical-minded gamer Panajev gives us an extraordinarily in-depth exploration of a recent patent application from Sony's Chief Technical Officer. This patent describes a scenario which could revolutionize the way used games are treated.

    ”United States Patent Application 20060069752
    Kind Code A1
    Chatani; Masayuki (Chief Technical Officer of Sony Computer Entertainment Inc.)”

    Title: Incentivizing software sharing through incentive points

    Abstract:
    A method for incentivizing sharing of a software product through awarding incentive points utilizing unique identifiers including removable storage identification, user console identification and user identification. The granting of access permissions and the awarding of incentive points are facilitated through a host server.

    http://www.patentdebate.com/PATAPP/20060069752

    It’s All About The Entitlements

    Section I: Introduction

    People buy games, lend games, and sell games. This reality is well known, it is familiar to us users and we enjoy the benefits it gives us, such as the ability to buy used but fully working games at a cheaper price than brand new ones and to sell what we do not use any more. In all fairness, it is also something that is not under the control of the Intellectual Property (IP) owners of said games and we know that when money is involved the lack of control is not something said IP owners enjoy. While reading this patent, as we shall do together soon enough, it is tough to ignore the comments against the used games market made by various publishers and hardware makers (for example Sony to name one) interested in collecting royalties on each title sold to customers. Software publishers in general have never shown much enthusiasm about what they perceive to be the effects of the used game market on brand new games: lower volume of sales at full-price leading to quickly dropping MSRP (Manufacturer’s Suggested Retail Price) of said new game titles. Still, before we put our tin foil hats on let’s try to understand the idea behind this patent application (Note: it has yet to be granted, but it is the latest evolution of some other patents that Sony Computer has filed in the past few years).

    [0005] Disc storage media, such as CD-ROM and DVD-ROM storage discs, are typical storage devices for commercially available software programs. For example, publishers and manufacturers of games for electronic gaming systems use read-only storage devices such as CD-ROM discs to distribute and sell their products. Discs may be passed and shared among users; however, there is no effective system in place to account for the potential multiple users of commercially available software products.

    [0006] Even though discs may be shared without any constraints, it may be that discs are shared only between small groups of users without widespread distribution among the entire user population. The software product is not widely shared, thereby forcing others to purchase their own copy. The software product does not achieve widespread advertising either, limiting the potential for a larger consumer base. For example, the publishers and distributors of game software would like their products advertised to a wide customer base as well as purchased by a wide customer base.

    [0007] A system that would offer an incentive to a user of a software product when this user shares the product with others, or when the user plays the product, is a concern of publishers and distributors of software products. A user may tire of a product on a disc, but instead of storing the disc away, maybe never to be seen again, the user is offered an incentive to share. Therefore, the user may be more inclined to share a software product with others. Such a system would (1) promote the product, (2) attract other users who may purchase more products in the future, and (3) offer all users incentives to purchase more products.

    The basic idea that Mr. Chatani is trying to convey here is that many games, due to maybe poor marketing efforts or other causes such as a high price-point, fail to reach mass-market penetration, limiting their exposure and thus their ability to capture the attention of as many potential buyers as possible. Customers tend to buy games from stores (new or used ones) and keep them, maybe they lend them to some friend of theirs or they sell some of them back to a store; the latter is a somewhat welcomed tolerated scenario because quite often the money received by the store is spent in the store for other video-games even though there are some stores that do give cash for your used belongings. So, the incentive users have to “share” their games can be monetary, if they happen to sell their games, or it can be their friends’ appreciation, if the owners lend the games to their friends. In both cases though, the original owners cannot play the games anymore unless they buy the game discs again or they get the games back from the people who have borrowed them. From the patent it might appear that perhaps sharing a game without transferring its ownership might not exactly be what the patent author had in mind, but then how would such a plan deal with game rentals (example: Blockbuster)? What do we imply when we talk about transferring ownership from a user to another one? Also, painting the concept of “restricted sharing = forcing others to buy their own copy (thus limiting potential user-base)” under a bad light would seem to conflict with the idea that the only and rightful way of sharing a game would be to transfer the game’s ownership to the player that receives the owner’s game. Truth to be told, it is possible in theory to transfer ownership for free (or almost for free); that is the other user would not need to pay the original owner at all if this was their agreement, but we will see more about that once we get to the meat of the patent. Look then for the explanation of the term Transfer Charge, as used in this patent, later on in this very article for a better idea on how this particular solution can be achieved.

    Returning to the idea of “game sharing”, according to this patent many people evidently do not feel the need to help the games they like get much coverage beyond talking about them with their close friends and on some Internet message boards, but “seeing is believing” as the saying goes. It certainly would help to promote games more effectively (saving important advertising dollars too ) if people could see what a platform can do, the games it has available first hand, and that they could do so in an affordable way. It might push people to buy the console, to buy a particular game, its sequels or similar games to it. Basically, to make a long story short, one of the elements the gaming industry wants to focus on is this: bringing the “word of mouth” advertisement concept to the next level.

    One thing that does bother software and hardware publishers is that they have neither data nor control over how games are used and shared: if they are borrowed by someone, if they are sold, or if they are purchased new or used. It is a massive amount of data about game users, about their behaviors and the games they play: a resource of information that many marketing people and executives inside big game publishers would be salivating at the idea of being able to access. It is not something new, or an uncommon practice these days -- or do you think that Google gives you all that many on-line services for free just because they are nice?

    Section II: It smells in here, but I took a shower!

    Let’s first bring together some of the particularly mellow parts of the earlier quoted passage that show just how much they care about us not being able to simply share our games with as many other people as we could:

    Even though discs may be shared without any constraints, it may be that discs are shared only between small groups of users without widespread distribution among the entire user population. The software product is not widely shared, thereby forcing others to purchase their own copy.

    [...]

    A system that would offer an incentive to a user of a software product when this user shares the product with others, or when the user plays the product, is a concern of publishers and distributors of software products.

    A user may tire of a product on a disc, but instead of storing the disc away, maybe never to be seen again, the user is offered an incentive to share.

    Look boys and girls, at least someone for once thinks about our wallet too! And we selfish ones that were trying to keep our games hidden away rather than let other people enjoy such treasures. Shame on us!

    Ok, now you got me interested, I want to redeem myself; what do I gain by being nice? In the official Sony lingo the word would be Entitlements, but if you are familiar with the Xbox LIVE world then you can think of the Microsoft Points that you are able to purchase and spend on LIVE’s Marketplace. So, you gain on-line currency that you can then spend on the PlayStation Network in a variety of ways: sell the old game and use the rebate to purchase this year new edition, buy a new game and earn points to purchase items for Sony’s “Marketplace”, or you could give them to a fellow gamer as part of the payment you owe him or her for the new cool custom level he or she just made.

    Points have value, and may, for example, be redeemed for rebates on disc purchases, publisher promotional items, updated versions of discs or user consoles, or may be traded among users. The foregoing examples of point redemption are not inclusive, however, and points may be redeemed for other items as well.

    So far so good; they gain a wider audience appreciating their games and we gain “PlayStation Dollars”.

    Not only that, but this portion of the patent gives an interesting emphasis on user created content sharing similar to how the PC market operates, instead of the more consoles-centric approach of giving only to officially licensed developers the right and ability to generate and distribute more content to complement the games they released. I do hope that the PlayStation Network is thought in such a way to allow and encourage this approach as it could open the floodgates to more advanced level editors and tools usable directly within your PLAYSTATION 3 game that you can make available through the network. It would also be quite welcomed if PC tools (think UnrealEd) allowed you to generate custom levels and art formatted in such a way to allow you to simply sign on the PlayStation Network from the PC and upload your content directly to Sony’s “store” or to your own PLAYSTATION 3 as an intermediate step.

    So, article finished? No, I do happen to be irked by the “seemingly” purely philanthropic argument they are using to sell us this system, it smells and it smells a bit fishy and I want to dig a little bit deeper before I start praising their next miracle.

    It does feel like the ass-kissing “customer reward” program might have a catch, but we could give it the benefit of doubt and assume that when they say “forcing others to purchase” they are honest and that they mean “forcing others to choose between either paying full price for the game or not getting a taste of what the final game is about beyond the scope of maybe an early and unpolished demo”.

    [​IMG]


    I have to admit that I did go through the classic stages of grief, like a common human being that feels a sudden shock, as I was reading the patent and talking about it with friends and I am sure the difference in tone of some passages, as the article was edited, can show it very well, but my main worry is to be able to give you some useful introduction to the problem at hand. I want to do so before you decide to jump in the heaven that is reading the patent in question on the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office’s website and go through various levels of fear, anger, or excitement as the case may be. Coming up next we will see the backbone of this idea, how the system is supposed to award the points and what it might mean for the “privacy” or anonymity we have enjoyed so far as regular Joe’s inserting a simple disc in a sometimes not so simple machine.

    Section III: Big Brother For Dummies

    Let’s start from section [0019] of the Invention Description and proceed forward trying to understand how the system is supposed to work. The concept is based around some key pieces of information:

    * User ID: this is a unique ID and your PlayStation Network “gamer-tag” is linked to it.
    * Game Disc ID: each game-disc has a unique ID that identifies it individually.
    * Console ID: also known as set ID, each PLAYSTATION 3 console has such a unique ID which can be used to distinguish users in place of the User ID.

    Naturally, information is not worth much unless you have systems to store and access it:

    * User ID Database
    * Game Discs Database
    * Publishers Databases (we can restrict the category, for simplicity reasons, to Game Publishers in this case)

    Key elements of this picture are the concepts of a Centralized Network, a Host Server and several Publishers-run servers that presumably connect to the Centralized Network. Such a network could be thought of as the centralized PlayStation Network or PSN that Sony has been talking about for quite a while.
    Let’s proceed in steps:

    * The device in question is your PlayStation Network aware console: whether we are talking about PSP or PLAYSTATION 3 makes very little difference.
    * This device is able to access content on a physical read-only device (UMD or BD-ROM as you might see fit).
    * The device has at least one interface connected to a local network (LAN o WLAN) and through that local network the access to the centralized Network would be performed.
    * The device, known in the patent as user console, is configured to access some form of removable storage, a “Memory Card” like a USB pen-drive, a Memory Stick card, a Compact Flash card, a Secure Digital card, or a Hard Disk Drive (HDD), which can be read and written by the user console.
    * The first time the console is turned on you are asked to configure some settings and to register at the Host Server of said Centralized Network. We can really think of this process as being similar to creating an Xbox LIVE gamer-tag and registering it on Xbox LIVE web-servers.
    * During this process the Console ID and the User ID will be respectively extracted and assigned to the user so that they can also be stored in the Users Database and the Discs Database the Host Server has access to.
    * The Host Server has access to also the Publishers’ servers which manage sub-accounts. The sub-accounts are tied to Game Discs Unique IDs and stored in appropriate Databases.
    * Each disc has a Data Access Area, a Disc Unique ID Address, and a Disc Unique ID.
    * Audio, Video, and Program data are recorded in the Data Access Area while the Unique ID Address and the Unique ID might or might be not recorded in the Data Access Area.
    * The Unique ID Address is the address on the disc of the Unique ID.
    * The Content of the disc cannot be accessed by the user console unless, upon completion of the “registration” process mentioned earlier in the article, the Host Server submits access permission.
    * You do not believe me, do you? Fair enough... in the patent’s own words:

    The DISC UNIQUE ID 230 uniquely identifies the disc 110. The contents of the disc 110 cannot be played on the user console 115 or other devices without access permission for the disc 110.

    * The Host Server’s User Database is itself composed of multiple fields:
    * User Account Information: this includes the User ID as well as additional information such as Address and Billing Information, user-name (your gamer-tag in Xbox LIVE terms), and user-preferences of each PSN user.
    * Point Account Information: this includes information regarding Incentives and Reward Points for the user, keeping track of their totals as well as other information that the patent’s Points Management System needs in order to operate.
    * The Disc Database is also something worth exploring. It is divided in two major categories:
    * Disc Information: it includes the Disc Unique ID, the associated User ID, a field called “user consent” (used to save the identity of the user authorized to access the Game Disc by the disc’s current owner), title, publisher, type, date of purchase, and transfer charge. The system is designed to account for and track the transfer of ownership of said Game Discs. Inside the transfer charge field there is stored the amount of payment due by the user to the owner of the Game Disc for the transfer of ownership, and we might possibly also see other charges due to the actual transfer of ownership. The way the transfer charge is defined leaves room for giving your game away for “free”; it covers the user-to-user sale process without establishing a minimum amount due by a user to the user who is the owner of the Game Disc, but it only mentions “other charges”. Such “other charges”, in a context of a free PSN, would seem as simple fees to be paid to Sony for facilitating/allowing the transfer of ownership between users. In this case, your friend would only need to pay some small transaction fee to Sony and you would still be awarded Reward Points further encouraging you to share your games.
    * Sub-Account Information: each Disc Unique ID is associated with its own sub-account which includes Incentive and Reward Point informations linked with the Disc Unique ID.
    * Another piece of the equation is the Publishers Database:
    * The Publisher server manages sub-accounts associated with each Disc registered by users and this data is stored in an appropriate Database.
    * The information stored in the Publisher Database seems to closely mirror the structure of the Disc Database mentioned earlier.
    * A user may have multiple sub-accounts with each publisher and the user can transfer points from his/her Points Account in the User Database, managed by the centralized Network’s Host Server, to any sub-account stored in one of the Publisher Databases the game publisher uses.
    o A good example of this would be the practical “behind the scenes” handling of purchasing a game’s download-able content or as the PR folks would say performing MACRO Micro-Transactions: transferring X points in the Y sub-account you have for game Z in the publisher W’s own Database system.

    Some of the wording of the patent might be applicable and extensible also to PSP and maybe to the PlayStation 2 once the PlayStation Network is fully functional and accessible, but for those platforms, especially for PlayStation 2 if the system is even used at all, it might not be for all existing, as time of writing, titles on the market. To be honest, the patent does not even worry about the user being able or not to connect onto the network (it is taken for granted) and thus being able or not to receive authorization instructions; what would happen if you did not have access to the Internet?

    If you are now thinking “well when I play some games I will not be on-line with the console” to side-step the problem then think again as it is not such a difficult proposition to cache data on a permanent storage device included with every console ( I am looking at you PLAYSTATION 3’s HDD).

    In order to examine the case of someone simply stripping a game of its Disc Unique ID, it is better if we open a short parenthesis: a system is in place to determine if there is a Disc Unique ID Address (and thus the Disc Unique ID itself) and if such address does not exist the execution is continued and the program inside the disc is started, but it would be naive to assume that such a system does not also try to establish, under some internal rules, whether or not there should be a Disc Unique ID Address on the disc itself for anti-piracy reasons. If the Disc Unique ID Address exists on the disc, but there is no Disc Unique ID recorded on the disc the program execution is stopped. If this Unique ID is present, it is read by the console and the process would proceed to its next step.

    If a “Memory Card” (USB, MS, CF, SD, or HDD) is not present in the system then the User ID, Game Disc Unique ID, (and the Console ID) are sent to the Host Server every time the disc is booted by the console. When the Host Server is contacted, changes in disc ownership and the awarding of points to the user account take place. The console will also need to be saving the Disc Unique ID, User ID and the rest of the access permission related information onto the “Memory Card” of the console.
    If the “Memory Card” is present then the information needs to be submitted only once to the Host Server. The following times the game is booted the console will use the information residing in the memory card to determine if the disc can be granted access to or not.

    When you connect to the Host Server to authorize access to the disc, the Host Server determines if the user is a first time user or not. If you are, you will be asked to register the console (like we have already seen) and then you will be assigned a unique User ID; if you are not, then your console will need to send either User ID or set ID (or both) as well as the Disc Unique ID to the Host Server.

    Accessing the user Database associated with the User ID received, the Host Server determines if the just received Unique ID matches any of the Disc Unique IDs already tied to that particular User ID: it goes without saying that this is a great method to understand if you ever played that disc, but it is easily extensible to check if the disc is brand new and has never been tied to any User ID before or not, which is exactly what the patent’s writer thought of when he wrote:

    If the received DISC UNIQUE ID 230 does not match any of the DISC UNIQUE IDs in the user table 310 in step 630, then in step 645 the host server 130 searches for the received DISC UNIQUE ID 230 in other user's user tables. If the host server 130 does not locate a match, then the disc 110 associated with the received DISC UNIQUE ID 230 has been purchased new by the user and never played.

    You can be awarded incentive points for playing that disc, also different schemes based on a variety of factors might be implemented that assign you points you differently based on, for example, such things as publication date of the disc, the disc’s popularity or your “achievements” obtained in this disc or other discs your User ID is tied to: as we saw earlier you can also be assigned reward points for such things as buying a new game and registering it as well as for selling your game to another user whom you will have to authorize in order for him/her to enjoy the disc’s content. In fact, if the Disc Unique ID sent to the Host Server matches a Disc Unique ID tied to a different User ID, then it is clear to the system that someone else is the owner of the disc. The Host Server then looks in the owner’s Database for consent data and checks if the user currently attempting to play the content of the disc has been authorized to do so: if permission was granted by the owner of the game disc to the current user then access to the disc is granted and the disc Unique ID is untied from the original User ID of the previous owner of the disc and tied to the current user’s User ID, else access to the disc is denied. To summarize, the process of moving the disc Unique ID from one user to another, as result of the former giving access permission to the latter and giving the latter also the disc itself, happens as result of a “transfer of ownership” transaction being successfully completed by the two parties (old owner and new owner).

    Even when not expected, good news seems to arrive though: the patent makes the case that before granting access permission to another user, the owner of the disc can save the content of the disc onto a Hard Drive (presumably his/her PLAYSTATION 3’s HDD) which presumably still allows him/her to play the game after he has “given the disc away”. If that were the case and you could save the game to the HDD and lend the game to others which could also install the game and then lend the disc to others and so on, you would have the possible scenario of one person buying the game and everyone else playing it for free unless safeguards were put into place. The easiest safeguard would be to make the user pay a fee to “activate” the game image saved on the his/her console’s HDD: it could be a fee quite lower than the game’s full price, just there so that users would not install the game and keep playing it for free even after giving the game disc away. Until you paid the “activation fee” your HDD installed game could be used in “Demo” mode with limited functionality. With the information they would collect with such a system in place, it would be far too easy to place similar additional content access restrictions on users that try to abuse the rules. Unfortunately the patent does not provide any insights on this issues: you seem left to assume that giving disc access permission to another user simply involves transferring disc ownership to that user, while being able to have that same game stored on the console’s HDD, a simple concept which while being reasonable leaves many questions unanswered.

    Section IV: Should you care?

    Is this whole concept the great revolution that the used sales market system might have needed or a way towards its demise? Let’s see what a fellow big-time gamer has to say about it:

    It would seem that Sony's handling of this system would allow you to give your disk to someone else, whilst retaining a playable copy on your HD, which is commendable.

    However, I suspect that there are details that are not being fully disclosed. Initially when first announced, people thought that Entitlement points were the equivalent of MS Marketplace points -in fact, it looks very much like Entitlement points act as the currency in the Sony Live world in the same way that MS has it's points for purchasing downloads.

    Regarding the notion of ownership transfer, I suspect that this transaction will NOT be free. If it were free, this would allow unlimited transferal of games between friends.

    I suspect that what will happen is that when the game is inserted into the machine of someone who is not the original owner of the machine, then that person will be asked to pay a fee in entitlement points roughly equivalent to the price of a second hand game. I suspect a percentage of this fee will then be passed back to the previous owner - although with Sony stating that the reward should really go to the original purchaser perhaps a sell on bonus is returned each time the game changes hand.

    This helps Sony and the publishers in a number of ways - but the obvious big gain is that the second hand market now generates revenues for the people who created the games in the first place, and it allows the prices of second hand games to be dictated entirely by publishers.

    What it also opens up is the possibility to have a 'hire from friends' system - theoretically, this system could easily be adapted to allow people to play the game for a limited time with a entitlements point fee going back to the original owner.
  2. Prime

    Prime Member

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    http://www.superherohype.com/forums/...d.php?t=249577


    I should mention I took these posts from another forum.
  3. Dave

    Dave Well-Known Member

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    Any chance of summing that up for me.:confused:

    I'm just too lazy to read the lot but if it's as your title suggests then :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

    Why Sony, WHY?
  4. Dave

    Dave Well-Known Member

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    Just read your second post and.:eek: :eek: :eek:

    Are Sony trying to commit commercial suicide with the PS3?

    That is simply disgusting profiteering from Sony. If this goes ahead I may have to reconsider a PS3 purchase.

    It's just bad news after bad.:(
  5. Prime

    Prime Member

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    It's just a patent application at the moment so might not be implemented, but who knows after the rootkit fiasco I would'nt put anything past them.
  6. WelshBluebird

    WelshBluebird Member

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    I thought sony said they wern't gonna do something like this when it was brought up around january time this year?

    If it is true though, it doesn't really affect me that much (as I don't buy loads of games, so generally keep them all - atm I've only got around 8-10 PS2 games, and have only traded in about 4 in the past). But it will put people off I think.

    btw, what happens if you don't have your console linked to the net, surely that means sony can't link the game to your PS3, so the whole system falls apart then.
  7. Dave

    Dave Well-Known Member

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    Trouble is you may be right. Sony have certainly proved in the past that they are obsessed with drm and controlling their media formats.

    I'd be shocked if they did implement this but I wouldn't be surprised.:(
  8. Dave

    Dave Well-Known Member

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    Looks like you have to connect to the net to register the game before it'll play.

    You can't even leave it off line cos it can store the data in the hard drive to send to Sony when you do connect.
  9. bishman

    bishman Active Member

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    Wasn't this patent news a long while back? I'm sure they wouldn't enforce this in this generation of hardware. With MS having quite a head start at the moment it would surely be suicide for the PS3. I can't believe it will happen, I'm certain it won't.
  10. swanny78

    swanny78 Member

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    If I understand right..

    1. you register your PS3
    2. it registers your personal detaisl and links to PS3....Similar to Xbox does.
    3. You buy a game
    4. game disc has a unique ID pressed onto disc
    5. you play game, unique ID added to to "your" game database
    6. you lend game to mate
    7. mate tries to play game
    8. his PS3 tells him to sod off it doesnt belong to him
    9. mate and you buy an Xbox or Wii
  11. Dave

    Dave Well-Known Member

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    I really hope you're right.

    The way I go through games at 50 quid a pop I'm hardly ever gonna be able to afford a new game if this happens.
  12. j_s

    j_s Member

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    I can see their point of view to some degree but then when this was brought up before people compared it to used cars, other media etc. If they do decide to do this i'm thinking Nintendo and Microsoft really need to shout to the heavens that their consoles don't do this (for now ;) ). How are Sony going to please retailers who also sell 2nd hand games, they will not like this one bit.

    They will have to keep this on a low profile or introduce it in a couple of years time on titles that come out then.
  13. Toasty

    Toasty Active Member

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    At least we're getting more of an idea of Sonys online strategy ;)
  14. emporer

    emporer Well-Known Member

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    Yet another way for sony to shaft the public, and whats more suprising is that people still swear by them and buy the stuff. The rootkit fiasco was awful and they use these tactics all over the place, the guys behind all this should be shot, they are looking at a very real and serious threat to the psx brand from M$ and yet they shaft europe on the release dates, and you get this rubbish. Do they not realise that this would kill the ps3? Truth be told i hope it does and that sony learn a hard lesson as they are very arrogant, and this shows it.
  15. apolloa

    apolloa Active Member

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    I sudgest people read up on the rootkit fiasco if they don't understand it, simply put Sony were taken to court and forced to provide a removal tool for this software, it was forced to compensate anyone who used it, and forced to remove it from any audio CD's using it.
    What it did was every time you put an audio CD into your computer whose artist was a Sony BMG one, then you were forced to select to agree or disagree with a license before doing anything with the disk including playing. But the disk automatically installed DRM software onto your computer regardless of your license agrement selection. This DRM software called rootkit was worse then a virus, opened up your PC to attacks like an open sardine can and was generally REALLY bad programmeing which COULD NOT be removed fully in any way as the code buried it self so deeply into windows.

    If the fact Sony waited until it was forced by Law to remove it's rubbish and damaging to your PC DRM doesn't tell you where Sony stand on the subject then nothing will.
    Trust me, they may deny it at first but if enough people use it's online service it'll be enforcing DRM faster then you can blink, Sony think DRM is the holy grail.
    Nintendo and MS won't worry or implement DRM for a long time yet as they don't own any record labels and are'nt obsessed with it's own format's. They will wait to see who wins the format war then implement it as the Hollywood studios will insist on it I'm sure.
    Perhaps this is part of the explanation as to why every PS3 has a hard drive, and I have no doubt what so ever the developers will support it as they'll get a piece of the money pie I imagine.
  16. JamesOD

    JamesOD Member

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    I jsut feel as if sony are trying to commit corporate suicide.

    Everytime you hear anything about sony it is bad news at the moment regardless of where you look.

    What will be the next piece of news? could it be that the new spidey movie will be a film noir opera with gerri halliwell to take the role of spiderman and the exclusive ps3 game to be made by EA :D
  17. Kahled

    Kahled Member

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    This does not sound good at all.

    While I have never traded a game in (ever) it would mean that it still affects me because I tend to give away my old games to mates, that they would have to pay to receive an old title intended as a freebie kind of blows that out of the water.

    I have actually been surprised since joining this forum to see just how many people do trade games in and this makes it very difficult, fine if you are 'selling' the game to a mate but what if you want to trade in? If the transaction is not complete until party B loads and confirms the transfer then how are you sure you are going to be paid?

    The worst thing though is the potential effect for PS3 owners in the event of their console going 'poof', not unreasonable a fear given all the new and relatively untried technology employed, and receiving a replacement. That would surely show as some manner of new registration since the console is different, would you then have to pay again for a game you have already bought? In theory yes, as afterall the game is no longer being played on the hardware that it was purchased for.

    Oh and forget 'try before you buy' rental which is really bad, you're going to have to rely on reviews and boards like this for a decision on a wavering title. Saved myself a fair few quid now by renting and discarding.

    Hmm and how frequently does a household have more than one console? Quite frequently from what I have seen where several children (inc dad) are involved... could be an end to buying one game and sharing it around.

    On one hand I can see the sense in what they want to do it is just a bit too much consumer gouging for my liking, it makes perfect sense from a business revenue perspective but pretty much sucks for the consumer.
  18. tscotsman

    tscotsman Member

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    Have actually heard that this was the case from a friend who is a manager at a game store. He said that Sony had issued a newsletter stating that due to the manufacture costs involved for games on blu-ray that they needed to keep sales up to the maximum possible, therefore the used games market was not helpfull, so they dont want this for the PS3.

    If this is indeed confirmed when the Ps3 launches in November, then I will definitely never buy one.
  19. Kube

    Kube Active Member

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    Wow, another reason for me not to buy one. Great!
  20. Andy3

    Andy3 New Member

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    This is a *really* stupid move by Sony and they'll be doing their best to keep it quiet, otherwise no-one in their right mind is going to buy one. Idiotic.:thumbsdow
  21. D@Z

    D@Z Member

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    Greedy selfish bastids!!!

    I dump the disgrace that is sony many months back and this is just yet another reason to believe I made exactly the right decision.
  22. wattsy1977

    wattsy1977 Guest

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    Unlike the majority of us here - the mass public shops in GAME / GAMESTATION and if the prices of XBOX 360 second hand games are anything to go by (only £5 cheaper than new from same shop and £5 more expensive than mail order new) then to me the loss of the second hand market wont really bother me at all. Its GAME thats the greedy bastids in my opinon and should be selling second hand games for far far less of a profit..its no wonder Sony want to put a stop to this.
  23. Mickus

    Mickus Active Member

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  24. Kahled

    Kahled Member

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    Been stewing on this and it does annoy me.

    Over the years I have been a gamer and in general early adopter of most platforms I have seen no end of flak be directed at the Xbox and denying it the general acceptance it does deserve as a good games console, more often than not the primary reason for such a close minded attitude to Xbox being the Microsoft tag that goes along with it. Evil Bill, not wanting to feed a monopoly, and so much more to the point of being foaming and rabid about it. Utterly blinkered attitudes.

    Thinking back to the rootkit fiasco and now this… if this was done on the 360 then there would be lynch mobs hitting the street decrying the great evil that is Microsoft and its practise of tying in customers to generate more revenue. Here we have Sony locking in people to technologies they do not necessarily want (okay a good percentage do see BR as advantageous) and then to quite probably implement such an concept as this, after all they really do have it big for DRM, it's disturbing to think that there will be hardly a ripple other than perhaps a very few people might not buy a PS3 anymore because of it or the attitude that it would probably not affect them too much. I certainly cannot see a rootkit type ruling taking place in the courts as no doubt Sony will be very cautious with regard to software intrusion/invasion.

    Xbox is hampered and decried because of its Microsoft parentage but Sony proceeds to do what everyone accuses Microsoft of attempting/contemplating…. Mind boggling that the fanboys will still be out there satisfied that they are not lining Bill's pockets (as one pro-Sony comment I saw on here not to long back) as the walls close in around them squeezing tighter and tighter.

    The world is mad.
  25. rik1471

    rik1471 Member

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    Yeah, but what about the people who trade with friends and forum members? They're not greedy ********, but they'll certainly suffer from this.

    If this is true then Sony = :suicide:
  26. Smak

    Smak Member

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    Sorry if I have missed something here but is there any new info that would suggest Sony are going ahead with this or is this same dismissed patent from the start of year that has been brought up yet again?

    Agreed this would be a very bad move, as currently I'm always round my mates swapping games or taking games round to friends for gamming sessions.

    Hopefully TGS will shine some light on the subject :rolleyes:
  27. Kube

    Kube Active Member

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    Ill not suffer from it. If that patent is enforced then ill just continue to happily trade my Wii and 360 titles here. Sony can go **** if they think im purchasing a console who's titles i cant sell on.
  28. CAS FAN

    CAS FAN Well-Known Member

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    So the rumours are true then. I know that this has been discussed before but it was pretty much dismissed as something that Somy looked into but would never do in reality. It seems we were wrong :eek:.

    Essentially this means that you can't rent, borrow from a friend or easily buy games 2nd hand from shops. It seems that the only way you can sell a game is via Sony's service where the rights are transferred from one owner to another. This simply wouldn't work in shops who sell pre-owned as both the original seller and buyer would have to exchange details and I doubt that people would want to do that with total strangers anyway. I guess people could still arrange to do deals over forums such as this (especially between members who know each other well) but it would be a lot of extra hassle!

    This has pretty much confirmed to me that the PS3 is actually just a wind up - they can't seriously be releasing this thing can they? What are Sony doing - first they force people who want a PS3 to buy blu ray and charge them over £400 for the pleasure, they make a huge and rather unattractive console, the games are rumoured to be more expensive than 360 games, they then announce that they won't even supply an HDMI lead and just when you thought they were done they decide to drop the worldwide release and shaft over Europe. You would have thought at that stage that they had pretty much got rid of all but the most ardent fanboys from their customer base but Sony wish to go even further!! They then announce that you won't just be able to lend out, rent or easily sell your games, pretty much leaving the pre-owned market to Microsoft!

    Sony - all many of us want is a £250-£300 PS3 with a DVD drive, the ability to easily buy/rent/borrow 2nd hand games and a console released the same time as rest of the world. Stop shafting over gamers just to promote your damn blu ray format and leave the 2nd hand market alone :nono:.

    I can see a time in the future where all games are downloaded and the 2nd hand market will not exist by default, but to try and kill it now when your closest competitor isn't doing the same will be suicide!
  29. bishman

    bishman Active Member

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    Where has it been confirmed that this is definately happening?
  30. rik1471

    rik1471 Member

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    Wow, when you put it like that it really doesn't paint a pretty picture does it? You also missed the removal of rumble from the pads, sure that belongs in that list somewhere.
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