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Sony 3D camcorder range, questions

Discussion in 'Camcorders & Video Editing' started by Martin68, Jun 14, 2013.

  1. Martin68

    Martin68 Member

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    Dose anyone own any of the 3 Sony consumer 3D camcorders?
    HDR-TD10, TD20 or TD30

    the TD30 is the latest model, i'm thinking of buying it but theres a few things i can't get my head around... why do none of these model allow 3D photos to be taken?

    Also why is manual white balance also not adjustable in 3D mode?

    for a 3D cancorder, which is built specifically for the 3D market, why are the 3D features so limited compared to the 2D ones?

    many 2D cybershot cameras allow for 3D photos by panning the camera, so I would have expected a dedicated twin lens camcorder to allow for 3D photos too.

    How dose the 2D picture fair against a dedicated top of the range Sony 2D camcorder?

    Also, can the 3D footage be burnt to Bluray as a 3D bluray disc like a commercial 3D blu ray?
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2013
  2. grahamlthompson

    grahamlthompson Well-Known Member

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    Pretty sure 3D camcorders use the Side By Side format which squeezes two images into a single 1920 x 1080 frame of 960 x 1080 pixels (this is the format broadcast by Sky and the BBC). This format doesn't need a special disc or 3D Blu-ray player. The TV sorts out the two images to form the 3D pair of images. Full resolution Blu-ray uses two full image frames so needs twice the bitrate for the same quality to deliver 48 frames/second. Not sure if consumer grade camcorders are capable of Full HD 3D or if it would be possible to edit footage running at over 50mbps.
  3. Martin68

    Martin68 Member

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    In this case, the Sony 3D camcorders record 3D at full 1920 x 1080 not side by side, this is the main reason i'm thinking of buying one.
    I have been comparing the spec between the TD20 and the TD30 and I can not seem to find any difference apart from the fact that the TD30 has features taken away, such as the manual dial, and internal flash memory.
    size wise they are identical and so are all the other features, so is the TD30 the same as the TD20 apart from the items taken away?
  4. 12harry

    12harry Active Member

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    May I?
    That Sony 30-model displays a 20Mpx signage, so one must presume that's what it does as a Stills camera, since you don't need more than ~ 2x 2Mpx for L+R images in HD.
    I think OP needs to visit a Sony sales centre and get some practical experience, e.g. by taking a (couple?) SDHC cards with you, format in-camera and start filming in 3D. Sony Vegas/Movie Studio allows 3D editing, but I have no content to try "how" it does this.
    Whilst there are many "Fav Editors" chosen here, I'd suggest OP goes for the Sony product as this is "likely" to be better able to perform. (I understand it can adjust the Convergence figures, which affect the 3D perception).

    However, I suppose it's too late to suggest OP "thinks again" - 3D is all but dead!, and whilst it's possible to get domestic 3D-TV's, so you can watch your own stuff - trying to show it to others is fraught . . . never enough glasses and it makes filming far "trickier" - increasing the filming-effort and commercially increasing Cost.

    Where 3D has some future(?) is in re-formatting existing Hollywood-films, (so there is zero raw-cost)...then use clever software to create the necessary L+R images. Also, there is Animation . . . where the computer creates the 2D image anyway . . . so a few "tweaks" and there's 3D.

    However, as regard 3D video and the average user, it just isn't worth the enormous effort. Far better to spend the money on more 2D/Better kit and learn how to use it effectively.... this will produce stuff that can be shown to a wider audience, sent to distant relatives (of the Family, etc.).


    However, let us know what you discover, while you delve into the subject.
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2013
  5. Martin68

    Martin68 Member

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    though 3D may appear to be dieing for many people, it's not for me. Yes i know we have all watched 3D commercial films in the cinema or on a 3D tv, but with films most of us watch them only once for the entertainment value.
    With a 3D camcorder it's more than just entertainment, it's memories too!
    I have often watched my 2D holiday videos back and wished that they were in 3D to get more of a feel of being there again, and this is the main reason why i'm wanting a 3D camcorder, to capture the memories as well as the entertainment.

    As for sharing with friends, this would be no problem as 3D footage can easily be played back in 2D mode for the non 3D users, just like HD can be converted to SD dvd's, so again, no problem.

    Please don't put me off as i have already orderd a TD20 and i'm hoping it will out perform my expectations.
    All i wanted was a few answers from anyone who knows regarding my OP questions.
  6. Terfyn

    Terfyn Member

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    However, as regard 3D video and the average user, it just isn't worth the enormous effort. Far better to spend the money on more 2D/Better kit and learn how to use it effectively.... this will produce stuff that can be shown to a wider audience, sent to distant relatives (of the Family, etc.).


    Could not agree more. I would rather have superb 2D and brilliant audio than spend on 3D.
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  7. 12harry

    12harry Active Member

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    Post #5,
    I'm sure you will find it a pleasure to own.

    Good luck; perhaps let us know how things fare; positives, things to overcome, and so on. I suspect it will be exciting gathered round the family TV as 3D does add an "Extra Dimension"

    Sadly, there are few here that might use 3D, so you got some answers you didn't need . . . with the best of intentions.
  8. guitarman512

    guitarman512 Member

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    Hi I have an Aiptek 720 side by side 3d camcorder and a Hitachi 1080p HD camcorder. Last year I went to vegas and videoed quite a bit with the Aiptek. I found the footage more involving and with a sence of being there much better than the 1080 camera even on my 120" Optoma projector. In fact I just bought a Sony 3D Bloggie 1080p camcorder to take to Florida this year ( if I dont buy a TD20 before then that is) As for the old 3D is dead I'll believe that when they stop putting out nearly every new major film in 3D. ;0)

    You can find it on youtube as - Las Vegas 2012 3D HD it wont let me copy the url
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2013
  9. Martin68

    Martin68 Member

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    I did go and buy the TD20, got it for £550 in the end, and I have since been on holiday and filmed my trip only in 3D mode.
    now for the archiving... this is where my biggest problem arises!

    the most logical place to store finished holiday video footage in my opinion is on a blu-ray disc.

    the TD20 shoots 3D video only in 1080 50i mode, but 3D blu-ray standard is 1080 24p
    because of this, the whole video file has to be down converted to only 24 frames per second, and dropping a frame every second.

    I have burnt a 3D BD using Cyberlink Power director 10 Ultra, and i'm noticing during panning, that the picture pans smoothly but shows a jump every second because of the dropped frame.

    Why was BD designed to record i 24p but not 25p? and why such a slow frame rate, being that 50p is now the common camcorder standard?

    I know 24p is used for movies, but again why such a slow frame rate for modern movies?

    on the other hand, why have Sony developed their 3D camcorders not to record in 24P if the logical place to archive 3D video is on a BD?
  10. 12harry

    12harry Active Member

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    Techys may be able to tell you better, but I suspect that 25 (sorry 24fps) is really 50i mangled by software to fit.

    Cinema has always pretended 24fps gives the correct look, but it's rubbish - you need a faster frame-rate for fast movement (to avoid smearing, etc.), now that everyone is filming digital 24fps should be dead in the water.

    If you are using Sony Vegas Movie Studio, get the "suite" version (about £29 Amazon) and this should fix your 3D so it fits a BD disc (provided you have a BD burner, naturally.

    BlueRay is probably older than the current 3D push (so you are benefiting from high-spec camcorders very cheaply) . . . . and who's to say the BD standard won't change to catch-up..... that way Hollywood can sell us the same films over again.

    If Sony 3D camcorders record in 50i it's probably to do with the PAL standard and DVDs - BD can take their chances is maybe the ans - and as it can be converted in the Edit software, no-one will complain. Also, for 2D replay 50i is one of the standards that most TVs will accept. I.e. direct from the PC using HDMI I presume.

    Beware though that if BD discs are stored for long-term no-one knows what may happen, both in degradation (although they promise yyyears there is no insurance policy to claim on), - and the lesser-risk that any new players might not accept yr discs - indeed with Memory the way it is, we shall soon (5-years?) have USB drives that are easier to play than DVD/BD - and not a moment too soon, I hear!
    So it's possible you will have to use "old" BD drives to replay archive....

    Some folks believe it is safer to use HDDs as their failure is well-known and they are easy to copy, but whatever you use it's always safer to have several copies on "different media" and stored in different places.

    Good Luck.
  11. MarkE19

    MarkE19 Moderator

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    Not exclusively, BD-ROM does support 25i & 30i at 1920x1080 for 2D. However for 3D BD-ROM does only support 50p/60p at 1280x720
    4. Physical, Logical and Application Specifications « Hugh's News

    But what your BD authoring software is capable of may be a different matter.
    Frame rate conversion is not required (as mentioned above) and should be avoided if at all possible for the reasons you mention.
    Well I'd guess it was firstly designed to have films recorded at 23.976fps on it, so of course it would support 24/23.976fps. But as I've said this is not the only frame rate that is supported.
    50p is only recently becoming popular with camcorders and IMO a faster frame rate does not mean better quality - 24fps at high bit rates looks far better than 50fps at a low bit rate. So with internet streaming of films to your home on a limited bandwidth I would rather get it at 24fps than faster but with more pixilation due to the limited internet speeds we are stuck with in the UK.
    23.976 is fine for the vast majority of films, and as that is what the equipment in your local cinema is capable of I wouldn't expect 24p to be dropped any time soon.
    I'd bet that their higher end 3D camcorders can use 24p :rolleyes:

    Mark.
  12. Martin68

    Martin68 Member

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  13. 12harry

    12harry Active Member

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    Join Sony Creative Forum and ask the experts there.
    I suspect you can do that with the much cheaper Vegas Movie Studio, eg latest is v12 "suite" about £30 Amazon . . .
    DVD Architect does burn to BD
    (what a daft name for software, eh?)
  14. Martin68

    Martin68 Member

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    Unfortunatly it wont let me ask a question on the Sony forums as i'm not a registered user, and i don't want to go and buy the Vegas software to find out it dosent work.
    I have downloaded Vegas 12 trial, and looking at the blu-ray burn options it too only allows for 1080 24p for 3D

    this too will drop 1 frame every second during conversion from 50i.

    What I don't understand is why to we get our camcorder frame rates based upon out mains electrical frequency? surely this should no longer be a factor in modern tech and if 24p is here to stay with BD then why can't the make camcorders shoot in 48p instead of 50 or 60, this way we would still have a fast frame rate for shooting, and a much more compatible conversion to 24p

    And why leave 24p for pro only? again it must be obvious for manufacturers that consumers want to burn their footage onto BD especially the 3D footage from the Sony TD camcorder range.

    Dose anyone know if BD can be tricked to burn in 25p mode?
  15. MarkE19

    MarkE19 Moderator

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    So register as a user - it's free and you don't have to own any of their software to get registered. I'm sure there are a lot of questions from others looking to buy the software and just want to check it does what they require from it before splashing the cash.

    Mark.
  16. 12harry

    12harry Active Member

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    Post #14 . . . .Mfrs/suppliers provide what sells . . . . and if folks want to imitate Hollywood with 24fps when cinemas are using much faster frame-rates, who cares? Certainly the great unwashed Public won't, as they hardly understand how "frames" are recorded onto a digital memory. Neither do I.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    This is shakey ground for me, however, it's unlikely that 24/25 is really an issue. Indeed the only reason you think it is one/other is because you selected it . . . is there any reason the techies are exactly the same and no-one is telling. Whenever you look under "Properties" you will get whichever figure (of course), - since that's what you asked for.

    I really don't think anyone sees a frame missing every second. Being so regular, the brain would be bound to spot it.
    Somewhere, I read there are some duplicated frames, (yet "frames" don't really exist - you see them in the Editor only because it puts them there. Digital is not Cine, although much of the pretence says it is), but does anyone notice that Hollywood films are projected at 48/50 speed? - the ans is no - we come to accept the error, having nothing else to compare. It wouldn't surprise me to learn the film has a few frames deleted to adjust the projection-time, just in case an Anorak cares to time it.

    If you are using stuff from recognised suppliers, Pana, Canon, Sony, BM, etc. - then you have to accept their techy guys have already sorted out what you will see on the screen - better to worry about exposure, shake - and a darn good Story.
    Content is King - anyone?
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2013
  17. Martin68

    Martin68 Member

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    The reason i'm ranting on with regards to frame rate is this:
    I recently bought a Sony TD20 3D camcorder, and i want to shoot video and save it as 3D onto blu-ray discs.

    The camcorder shoots 3D in 1080 50i but blu-ray can only record 1080 3D video as 24p

    the problem arrises when the 50i footage is converted to 24p

    50i can easily be converted to 25p as this is exactly half but with 24p the 50i gets converted down to 25p then every second one frame is dropped.

    the result is that movement such as panning, you can see a jolt once a second during a smooth pan or other movement, this is not acceptable, but this 24p format is the ONLY way to get my 3D video onto blu-ray at full 1080

    This is why i'm thinking that Sony f**ked up with their 3D camcorders, as it's obvious that 3D video is best stored onto BD yet 3D BD (which Sony also invented) is not directly compatible with their 3D camcorders which i'm finding really odd and very frustrating.
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2013
  18. 12harry

    12harry Active Member

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    Martin68, my ans. was based on yr comments, Post #14.
    +However, as I read it now, your issue is practical . . . .i.e. when panning . . . Is this really the case?
  19. Martin68

    Martin68 Member

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    yes, unfortunatly it is the case that these Sony 3D camcorders record 3D in an in compatible way to copy to blu-ray

    you either lose a frame every second which results in a jerky movement if copied to BD at 1080 24p

    Alternatively you can copy to BD at 720 50i but lose resloution which on my 120" screen is noticable

    If only BD allowed for 25p or the camcorder could record at 48i then i wouldn't have any issues with it.

    It seems so stupid because Sony invented the BD standard so why are they creating camcorders with arnt compatible, it's so obvious that the final destination for archiving and sharing the finished video would be on BD

    I'm now debating if i should sell on my TD20
  20. 12harry

    12harry Active Member

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    Thanks Martin68, but you are saying the Sony 3D camcorder can't make a 3D BD?

    I have a 3D TV and 3D Philips BD player, although no 3D media!. The Spec claims File- support: .avi .divx .mp4 and .mkv
    and Video op (to the TV) PAL/NTSC
    480p 576p 720p 1080p 1080i and 1080p24

    (FWIW my burnt movie DVD's are 575 x720 25fps, but it won't say -i/-p so I can't say....although I thought they were -p having taken the necessary data from the original clips at 50i)



    Unfortunately I've misplaced the full Player-Specifications and have to rely on the "Copied interesting bits" which I keep by the TV "just in case" - however if it was there I'm sure I'd have copied it.

    If I switch the TV to the 3D-Player, then I have the option of Side-by-side or Top-Bottom (or "Auto"), so I presume the player is outputting a 3D-enable signal to make the TV do this - Even though there is no disc in the player, as it refuses "3D-settings" with any other HDMI input.
    Using the SD tuner in the TV it also refuses 3D Settings, saying Not Supported, so It looks as though the only viewable 3D material is via 3D-BD-player.... possibly until I get a suitable HD tuner, although I read BBC has stopped broadcasting 3D.


    If yr camcorder is static on a near-focused object, say 10ft away, are you saying it still misses this frame every second? If so, I'm wondering about that Editing Software.....

    EDITING: YOU said Power Director 10 Ultra, yet reading the advertising blurb it is rather slanted to creating 3D from 2D sources, nowhere did I read it specifically takes 3D camcorder stuff and makes perfect BD3D. It's implied, but not stated clearly, IMHO. Did they rush it out before the 3D specs were finalised (and costly?).

    Before you ditch the camcorder - take a 30-day trial of v12 Movie Studio from Sony - if that doesn't fix it, give up....it's just too much effort....or, wait until August, when v13 should be out and that will have fixed any 3D niggles in v12 . . . . one might hope.
    BTW. I rec. you get the "Suite" version, v12 is about £35 (Az).DYOR.
    Join the Sony Creative Website anyway . . . . and tell them if v12 doesn't do 3D.
    -or ask if there is a 3D frame-missing issue - someone will know, even if Sony won't tell.


    Good luck.
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2013

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