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Panny PZ70 - 24fps - JUDDER or NO JUDDER?

Discussion in 'Plasma TVs' started by acerick22, Sep 24, 2007.

  1. acerick22

    acerick22 Member

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    looks like this could be an interesting one.....

    anyone know or have the pz70 and experience NO JUDDER and can accept and display 24fps???
  2. Bumtious

    Bumtious Well-Known Member

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    How many more threads on this question

    There are 3 on the front page alone.

    There is serious confusion about this and the problem is that certain people dont like the truth.

    The Panasonic range does not do this correctly.

    On the PZ70 you will see a picture because it will accept the signal unlike the other sets in the range, but the set does not convert it properly to 72HZ therefore inducing judder.

    Anyone who says its smooth either does not know what they are looking for.
    Every single pz showing blue ray outputing 24p cannot support 72hz frame rate needed.

    Saying that if owners are happy that is all that matters.

    Currently as far as I am aware only the Pioneers and the Latest Sony LCD sets do this properly.

    Pannys next range will but this range does not.

    Those are the facts.
  3. Andy_Jack

    Andy_Jack Member

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    I am an actual owner and my naked eye cannot see any judder whatsoever. I have studied, re-studied and watched over and over again every blu-ray movie I have. I'm sure other owners will agree with me. The PZ70 does accept and playback 1080p 24 without judder. (I and others are not really bothered if its converted or not, what matters is smooth playback and the pz70 performs in that respect. Beware, some will say that you need a top end Pioneer to get smooth playback, but normally thats Pio fans.)

    :rolleyes:
  4. Andy_Jack

    Andy_Jack Member

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    Like I said, to my eye, I cannot see any judder at all. Some people must search for it, even try to make it happen. Perhaps they just like to diss this TV for some reason. What reason? I don't know. But I ask all pz70 owners to say here, in this thread, if they have detected judder via blu-ray. Only then will I really know that it is just me that cannot detect it.

    regards

    Andy

    ps, ELV, why did you delete your post?
  5. Bumtious

    Bumtious Well-Known Member

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    Thought you'd respond Andy

    Again

    If you cant see it and are happy, fine

    The question posed does it judder, the true technical answer is yes because it connot do the 72hz conversion.

    Any one who wants to meet me in North London I will gladly go with them and demonstrate this. They can then decide if it would bother them.

    It has nothing to do with brand it is about getting the facts right for people posing the questions.

    If it did support it properly, then it would state it, but it doesn't it says it can support the 24f signal. It then simply needs to show this at a 72hz frame rate conversion. It cant.

    A true 24p product needs to do both. Period.

    Different people are suseptable to to different things.

    But again the techincal crud is largley irrelevent, as long as the person spending the money is happy that is all that matters. You clearly are happy Andy, you have obviously chosen well for yourself, so are 95% of all owners of all brands.

    But the question posed is judder or no judder and at 24f the fact is judder.

    Weather or not you see it is another matter.

    Just as it is with green streaks.
  6. choddo2006

    choddo2006 Active Member

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    It's not strictly true that only the Pio and Sony can handle 24Hz properly. They might be the only ones that can do it over HDMI though. I'd quite like to see this judder on a PZ70.
  7. Andy_Jack

    Andy_Jack Member

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    I thought you'd pop up on the pz70 threads. Again.;)

    So, if one cannot see it at all, it therefore does not exist. Therefore the pz70 does display 24fps perfectly and without judder.

    You see, whether you can see it or not, it does not exist. You are just imagining it. Like I said, I have watched all my blu-ray movies and cannot find any instance of it. Perhaps I have the only set of eyes and the only pz70 that cannot show judder? I will gladly take you to my house and show you that you cannot see it.:smashin:

    So this 24 fps is a non entity, why be bothered with it if you cannot see it? It matters not a jot. Folks, this TV shows blu-ray movies perfectly. No judder and with the ps3 set to 24 fps forced on. There you go, end of the matter.
  8. Bumtious

    Bumtious Well-Known Member

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    Can you clarify choddo
  9. Bumtious

    Bumtious Well-Known Member

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    Really:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

    You claimed on another thread that you could not see green trailing yet the thread is littered with people seeing it including choddo who bets a large wedge of cash that he will see it on yours. Green trailing thread.

    I will also bet a large wedge of cash that I can see judder on yours and will gladly take up your offer to come up to Lincolnshire to see it (if you promise not to lynch me:D)

    If you cant see it therefore it does not exist, well I cant see air but it exists!!
  10. MAW

    MAW New Member

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    So, Bumtious, what internal frame rate does Panasonic use? Previously they have always used native frame rate or a direct multiple. If there is internal FRC, it's a 1st, and as I assume you are working for Tony, what opportunity do you have to see the Panny set up in such a way? You've got to back up your anti 'all but pioneer' statements in some more concrete fashion, you bummed on the ISF/colour control against Fujitsu, if you don't know and have proof, don't say it.
    Jusy as a BTW, I do think this set is a pile of poop, but I don't think judder is the big issue. It would actually COST Panasonic to add circuitry to cause it, all their judder problems on previous sets were caused by incorrect 3:2 pulldown detection, not internal FRC. We leave internal refresh rates to Pioneer (done well) and Hitachi (shocking). I'm off to a distributor open day next week, will have access to a PZ, various BD players, and will take my own E1 tosh. I know what to look for, I will tell you if it exists or not. I cannot see why it should.
  11. Dave.W

    Dave.W Member

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    sorry to appear stupid but just what does the last letter in the descriptions actually mean? B, PED etc
  12. Bumtious

    Bumtious Well-Known Member

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    Not working for Tony at all.

    Not even going to justify my statement Martin, you know full well I use Panny pro panels extensively, fully accepted the argument re fujitsu and publically stated that.

    But I have not seen any set in the Viera range do this right. If someone can show me this I will again gladly publically retract my claim.

    As I keep bloody reiterating, it is not slagging anything, I have opinions just as you have.

    But I will debate into the sunset when claims are made that that people keep questioning. This subject of judder wont go away and I did not start it, I am just answering an honest question with an honest answer.

    Martin you have stated regually that you dont know what Panny are doing with the quality of Viera products, and nor do I.

    Just like you dont get why people are so hung up on 1080 and blame marketing for that, I'm doing the same here with this.

    I have not seen a pz70 display a judder free image anywhere. Seen it with the Pio, the Sony, the Samsung and PS3 BD players, everyone judders.

    I'm answering honestly at what I see and have not been able to solve it.

    Joe pub wants an answer MAW, if Im wrong what is the answer to this.

    As far as I'm concerned people should go look and judge for themselves.

    Repeating myself again, if you cannot see it then its not an issue, if you can and it bothers you stay clear cuz you cant solve it at present.

    ****EDIT I never get overly technical publically cuz it just gets confusing, just trying to put it simply but yes pull down is probably the issue, that aside, for the money these sets are nice, it just riles me that it is 1080p set yet cant handle the only thing that requires it be 1080p, by definition is a waste of money. The PX70/700 is a far better bet, better still a PH.
  13. Andy_Jack

    Andy_Jack Member

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    Grow up for gods sake. You are embarrassing yourself.

    One guy reports it. Not loads of pz70 owners. I am fed up of your anti Pannasonic rubbish and pro pioneer bumf. It's getting boring. Please feel free to pm for my address and pop up and examine my system though. Can't promise I won't lynch you though.:devil:
  14. Andy_Jack

    Andy_Jack Member

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    B is for British model or colour black I think. Ped means it comes with the tabletop pedestal type stand.

    regards

    Andy
  15. Bumtious

    Bumtious Well-Known Member

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    Guys

    Go look for yourself, cant be bothered anymore.

    For what its worth at no point have I said here go buy another make.

    Some people are just "brought product defenders".

    The original question asked is about judder.

    Just ask yourself this, manufacturers go to great lengths to market their products. They list features, gizmos and figures and what ever else they can say to get an edge.

    If lack of judder is important to you ask yourself why is there NO mention of FULL 1080/24p support anywhere except a tiny one liner in the instruction book that the set will support the signal and show a picture.
  16. Andy_Jack

    Andy_Jack Member

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    Funny enough, I did and purchased one too.:rolleyes:
  17. gypsybuilder

    gypsybuilder Member

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    New too all this techno bable but thought i'd give my 2 pence worth..

    Bought a philips Lcd earlier this year (my first flat panel) and thought that the picture quality on freeview was worse than my old crt set??? I couldn't understand why at the time and wrote it off as my imagination working overtime.

    Thought i'd take the jump and bought a ps3 to play blue-ray films. The quality of the image was better and I was pleased but noticed that there was a slight jerkiness to the playback. I thought this was a PS problem so I searched the internet but at the time found no definate answer.

    Thinking that the problem was my telly I decided I'd by a big un. An expensiveve telly must have a better picture than my philips so off I tootle to Comet (other electrical retailers are available) to have a look . This was about a fornight ago and I have to say I was not impressed ( probably the feeds etc). Took the missus with me and she decided that the panasonic had a better picture. It turns out that it was a 42 inch PZ70.

    I set my heart on this but thought I'd do a bit of research first, mainly because i'm concerned about jerkiness and also because i'm tight!

    Went back for another look on the weekend at various shops and have decided not to buy one because......the playback on blueray is jerky!!

    Bother. Going to have to wait until I have the money for a 1080p 24 fps set.
    By the way I do gardens for a living and know nothing about tellys but I do trust my eyes. Sorry.
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  18. MightyMartin

    MightyMartin Member

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    Also, I'm not sure if anyone has noticed (or cares for that matter!) but the PX70 (my 42PX70) accepts a 1080p/24 signal as well. However, it too judders quite annoyingly - my friends couldn't see it until i pointed it out to them, I wish I could go back to never having noticed it!
  19. KingGorilla

    KingGorilla Member

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    Guys

    Sorry to be slightly off topic and hijack this thread. I have 1 question and then i'll leave you all to continue debating Judder or No Judder (isnt that a game show?) :)

    I'm about to purchase a Panasonic 50PH10, I see MAW and Bumtious have a good understanding of the PH series and am wondering what is the best connection for a PS3 for BR playback on this panel which would enable it do deal with 24fps(and prevent judder)...? i know it does this over VGA but would it compromise any other aspects of picture quality if i connected it this way.

    Again, apologies for hijacking the thread :smashin:

    Thanks
    KG
  20. MAW

    MAW New Member

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    Gypsybuilder, as a self confessed newbie, forgive me for pointing out that maybe you didn't check the setup of the HD players connected to the Pz, and as nobody who actually gives a damn demos them, they are highly unlikely to have taken the trouble, so what you saw was almost certainly 3:2 pulldown judder caused by being fed a 1080i/60Hz signal. A known Panasonic flaw.
  21. monkeyboy69

    monkeyboy69 Member

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    ok guys, firstly lets calm down, were all just trying to offer our opinions to the best of our knowledge and heres mine.

    After watching the 50pz70 for a prolonged time in the panasonic shop, checking the inputs and player, settings, 1080p output from a blu ray player, boring the wife and making the sales guy believe he had a sale I didn't notice any judder but thats just my perception of the situation. Ok I admit the film was "stealth" not the best to view this and the shop didnt have another film to use. So after this continued issue I'd like to ask whether anyone knows of a specific point in say "casino royale " where this may be viewable or perceivable say a certain chapter or timepoint so i can go back view again.

    maybe I should stick with ignorance and be blissful but i know it'll bug me
  22. MAW

    MAW New Member

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    What we are talking about here should be staringly obvious all the time, everything moving in little jerks. I guess it's most obvious in slow pans, but FRC judder is so ghastly I cannot imagine anyone missing it. 3:2 pulldown is on a grander scale, but a bit less 'in your face' in my experience, ie the jumps are bigger, but noticeable just on the slow pans really, where FRC looks like a strobe light at a club to me.
  23. choddo2006

    choddo2006 Active Member

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    Using analog, you can feed 24,48 or 72 at just about any resolution to any Panasonic commericial screen or the Fujitsu 58.

    Probably needs to be the later ones to support 1080p, but I use native res @ 48Hz all the time.

    KingGorilla, I guess this adresses your question too. RGBHV input on the Pannies is very very good but you need to make sure your HDMI->VGA adapter is very clean.

    Can we keep personal comments out of it please?

    Do you know if the blu-ray players were set to output 24fps? The jerkiness might have been down to them being set to default output of 60 which introduces the 3:2 pulldown judder (each frame gets repeated 3 times, then the next one 2 times and so on, to give 60 frames in a second from a 24 frame film) - edit: I see MAW has already asked this, sorry.

    p.s. I wish I worked on gardens.

    I would have thought this would look pretty much the same as 3:2?

    FRC from 50->60 introduces the sort of horrors you're talking about, but 24->60, could well just be an internal 3:2 conversion?
  24. MAW

    MAW New Member

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    Internal telecine? Never, IMHO, just a straight FRC is so much cheaper.
  25. choddo2006

    choddo2006 Active Member

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    Well it's not quite the same as telecine, All it needs to do is hold & repeat the frame 2 & 3 times. How else would an FRC chip convert 24 to 60 anyway?
  26. Rob100

    Rob100 Active Member

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    I know it's an old panel, but although my PW5 will accept 72Hz (71.928) it does some kind of nasty FRC, presumably converting back to 60Hz (this is a guess on my part). I have to run at 47.952Hz for judder free performance.

    Maybe someone with a HTPC could configure it to output 1080p24 over DVI/HDMI and use "JudderTest" to check performance of the PZ70.

    I think the current DVDO VP's also have a judder test facility to test if a display mangles in incoming frame rate?
  27. choddo2006

    choddo2006 Active Member

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    Interesting. yeah my vp50 does have a judder pattern (just a scrolling bar) and it's smooth at 72 on the PHD8. I'm sure... (makes mental note to check when home)
  28. MAW

    MAW New Member

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    I've never seen a FRC judder on a PW or PH, that is something else you are seeing. The source presumably is a PC? If so, it's probably lacking the grunt of system resources to run 1080 at 72Hz. Are you multi displaying or even just multi tasking?
  29. Rob100

    Rob100 Active Member

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    I'm taking about my SD 480p PW5 running at native res using a PC. Has plenty of grunt for this, but definitely judders at 71.928/72Hz. Single display, very trimmed (as well as you can) install of XP. Definitely the display causing the judder, not the PC.

    I remember StooMonster doing tests on a number of Panny panels and anything above 60Hz wasn't smooth. However I am talking about older models (approx 4 years ago).
  30. MAW

    MAW New Member

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    Well, whatever it's doing, it's not doing any FRC, it's not capable. I can't say I've tried to run a PW5 at more than 60Hz, there was no need when they were in vogue! The modern ones certainly can do higher refresh, I have several installs running 100Hz and 72Hz from processors. But as you say, the definitive test might be the judder bar fro a DVDO processor. Don't think the older ones do 24Hz, so any VP50 owners living near PZ70 owners?

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