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Panasonic Professional VX300 (TH-65VX300) 65 Inch 3D Plasma TV Review

Discussion in 'Plasma TVs' started by The News Bot, Nov 25, 2011.


  1. vism

    vism Member

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    Euro pulldown has a cadence of 2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:3. It's an alternative to 2:2 pulldown in which a p24 source is converted to i50 by repeating 2 fields (I assume the 24th and 48th) or 1 whole frame (the 24th).

    It's used by Discovery and National geographic and even the beeb have used it (saw it on life on Mars series 1).

    Still confused on the level stuff.
    Is there a difference in luminance between absolute black on a 0-255 scale and video black on a 16-235 scale?
    There should be no detail to show below level 16, if 16 is zero luminance then surely you can't have anything less than that.
    Still not sure why there is detail in the 236-255 range, the standard says that peak white is 235, what is the extra stuff, where does it come from?
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2011
  2. vism

    vism Member

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    Further to my previous post, the HDMI spec states that YCrBr must use limited range (16-235) so I can't see how you get blacker than black and whiter than white to come out. Are you using analogue component/RGB for these tests?
  3. Chauvinnais

    Chauvinnais Member

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    This is very interesting but which HDMI spec are you referring to. There seem to be hundreds and hundreds and I notice that recently an effort at standardisation is being managed through the HDMI Forum: HDMI :: Press Release .
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2011
  4. vism

    vism Member

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    I'm looking at the 1.3 spec, I have a PDf called hdmi_spec_1.3_gm1.pdf. This is the full tech spec as far as I know.
  5. Chauvinnais

    Chauvinnais Member

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    Thanks for the information. There are others including the 1.3a and of course V1.4a of March last year.
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2011
  6. Steve Withers

    Steve Withers Assistant Editor

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    As I said video levels are set at 16-235 and the reason that video level black is set at 16 is a throw back to the days of NTSC television. However the complete range is from absolute black (0) which is also sometimes referred to as 'blacker than black' up to peak white (255) and TVs, HDMI cables and players are all perfectly capable of showing from 0-255. The Spears and Munsil Blu-ray disc has a specific set of tests for this which show the levels from 0-25 and 230-255. The idea is to set your display so that you can't see information below 16 but ensure that you can see information all the way up to 255. Therefore the ideal set up is 16 because we still don't want to go below video black, but up to 255 because some content will have detail above 235 and up to 255.

    As for your other question the VX300 had no problem with 1080i content using 2:2 and 3:2 cadence.
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2011
  7. Chauvinnais

    Chauvinnais Member

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    Thanks Stephen for clearing this up. Just the one scale then. That makes sense.

    As an aside may I ask whether, if you were me as the owner of an as yet still uncalibrated 600a, the VX300 is subjectively a better product to invest in or to go ahead and finalise the installation of the Pioneer. Thank you in advance. I don't know how you manage to produce the volume and quality of these reviews on a regular basis but thank you.

    Mark.
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  8. Steve Withers

    Steve Withers Assistant Editor

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    I think it depends on whether or not 3D interests you, if not then I doubt you could justify the additional cost. I'd just get the 600a installed and calibrated and start enjoying the fantastic images that TV can produce.
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  9. vism

    vism Member

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    Hi Steve,

    I don't know if it's me but you keep answering different questions to the ones I'm asking.

    If level 235 represents peak white, what is the extra stuff above it, where does it come from? DVDs and Blu-rays are mastered in yCrBr and will not have levels over 235 so what is the point of the 236-255 tests?

    I asked specifically about Euro pulldown and whether the TV can detect and remove it but you again told me it handles 2:2 and 3:2. I know it does because it was in the review, that's not what I'm asking.

    If you don't have a test for Euro cadence, that's fine, just tell me.

    Thanks.

    EDIT: Just to let you know how I'm thinking, I reckon these tests on your disk are for testing the RGB or Component outputs. The HDMI should be clipping the levels above 235 because they shouldn't be there. It may be that a lot of TVs don't do this clipping correctly but the Panny is adhering to the HDMI spec.
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2011
  10. Steve Withers

    Steve Withers Assistant Editor

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    I am answering your question but perhaps I'm not answering it very well. First of all 235 is reference white and 255 is peak white, so content will have information up to 255, just as it will have information down to 0, the difference is that we don't want to see below 16 but we do want to see above 235.

    Regardless of what it says in the specs, HDMI does not clip data to 16-235 and Blu-rays are not mastered to 16-235, they both utilise the entire video signal from 0-255. Since there is information from 235 to 255, if you set your display to 16-235 you won't be able to see the entire video signal and will lose detail from 235 to 255. The Panasonic has settings for both 16-235 and 0-255 and my recommendation is that you choose the latter.

    No we don't test for Euro cadence and to be honest I've never heard of it.
  11. Cadet

    Cadet New Member

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    Remember with the BT300 you will also have to buy the IR Emitter to use the 3D function which is £800.00 + Glasses where as the vx300 has the emitter built in, making the bt series pricey.
  12. micks_address

    micks_address Active Member

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    Hi Steve,

    I've read on other forums that the vx300 doesnt have the same ambient light filters of the VT30's and that this can be a major issue unless you are using the tv in a dark room/controlled light environment. Notice this at all?

    Cheers,
    Mick
  13. Steve Withers

    Steve Withers Assistant Editor

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    I've read that too Mick but as I mention in the review I watched the VX300 under a number of different viewing conditions, including plenty of ambient light, and I didn't have any problems.
  14. Dave Taylor

    Dave Taylor Member

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    Does this model still use fans, I hate fans....

    Re Dave
  15. mikelj

    mikelj Member

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    That's well worth pointing out ... lucky for me thought that I'm not interested in 3D, so the BT300 is definitely one I'm considering.
  16. Steve Withers

    Steve Withers Assistant Editor

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    Yes it does, in fact I think it has multiple fans but they are almost silent, you can only hear them when you hold your head right up to the chassis.
  17. O Ayers

    O Ayers Member

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    Hi Steve, kudos for the review - just a caught a glimpse of what you look like too, in the latest avforums vid - gutted I couldn't make it!!!

    Finally a Panny which doesn't "suck arse" when it comes to 50hz, which to be blunt was a complete ****-take and shame on Panasonic for all our hopes they raised then dropped like a lead weight when us Avforumers finally read the reviews!

    I've posted a review link below regarding the BT300 series, I'm licking my lips here, this could be the panel we've been waiting for, especially for us poor bastards who just don't have the dollars for a 65" behemoth!
    Panasonic BT300 Sneak Peek

    Please let me know your thoughts after you've read the review (is it the type of performance you've experienced with your review of the VX300), then I can get on my hands and knees and thank The Baby Jesus that a panel we have yearned for so long may just be around the corner!?

    I'm not forgetting the rest of the forums members - have a look too! Both sizes of theses monitor are in stock in the US so we can't be far behind!
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2011
  18. Steve Withers

    Steve Withers Assistant Editor

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    The Panasonic BT300 certainly looks interesting and appears to have some very accurate out-of-the-box measurements. The question is, does it share the same 30-bit processing as the VX300?
  19. O Ayers

    O Ayers Member

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    Hi Steve, are the out of the box measurements similar to what you experienced with the vx300?

    With regard to 30 bit, which can only be the icing on the cake here - I feel that it must do - I've compared the spec on the Panasonic US website and the BT300 series do have new additions in their spec sheet which you don't see on the PH and PF series.

    If the BT300 series are going to be labelled as "Broadcast" and not have the 30-bit, than quite frankly the top-brass at Panny should be horse-whipped, then after being trampled over by an angry mob (most likely AVForums members who've had to deal with that crap from Panny for years), be cut-up into small pieces which would be thrown into a blender - liquidised and the remaining slurry to be fed to the polar bears at London Zoo!

    I mean... how long do we have to wait for a display that can finally cut the mustard, like our trusty CRTs! Remember SED and FED! I had my heart set on FED after the SED farce! I can't see AUO giving the investment for FED as they seem to be focused on OLED anyway but they're using bottom emission which sucks as Sony are using the super top emission, I will post you a great Sony OLED video link later, don't forget to answer my question at the beginning, Steve!

    Once again, many thanks and let me know your thoughts, it's a breath of fresh air to talk to people who DO KNOW what they're talking about!
  20. Steve Withers

    Steve Withers Assistant Editor

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    The out-of-the-box measurements (especially for colour gamut) look better than the VX300 but since they weren't conducted by us I can't say for sure. I think you're right, the 30-bit image engine is probably being used across the entire new professional line. Hopefully something similar will feed down to the consumer panels next year, let's see what Panasonic have in store for us at CES

    Hopefully there will be some OLED screens launched at CES too, although things have gone a bit quite on the OLED front these days, the last panel I saw was LG's 31" which was over a year ago.
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2011
  21. Cadet

    Cadet New Member

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    Please let me shed some light, the difference between these models vx300/bt300 stem from the markets they are aimed at.

    VX300 65" is aimed at high end home cinema theatre buyers, it has 3d built in a brushed aluminium bezel, 2 x hdmi inputs and plasma glass technology.

    BT300 50" & 42" is aimed at the broadcast market, It is 3D capable screen but 3D emitters are external and a emitter unit will be required to view 3D. It has a wider range of inputs then vx300 for flexibility with more sources. It has identical appearance with the standard PF Range professional screens and shares some of the glass panel tech with the vx range (mainly to do with colour processing) but not all.

    In short , the BT300 has noticeably better image quality then the pf30. The vx300 has superior image quality then the BT300.

    The BT300 is priced between the PF30 and VX, and is only available in sizes 42" & 50", vx300 only 65"..:thumbsup:
  22. O Ayers

    O Ayers Member

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    Interesting that you mention the 30-bit engine but isn't that a misnomer or maybe good ol' marketing spiel as far as I know, isn't the industry standard 10 bit RGB 4:4:4? Where on earth has 30-bit come from?

    Last time I mentioned I'd give you a link regarding the Sony OLED range, well the link below is when two Sony reps from southern California did a presentation on the NEX-FS100 and the BVM-E250 Broadcast oled monitor - it's a very good video, the BVM is compared alongside a CRT and a crappy LCD, the rep also explains why top emission works much better than bottom emission like on the recently shown AUO 32 oled prototype. Pixel response is a big thing and according to the video the response time of the oled is 6μs the CRT 100μs and the toilet of an LCD panel 12ms - what a surprise.

    It's a long video but very interesting, to skip to the oled presentation it starts at 1:26:42, the rep even mentions that 40" oled exists and they watched a 4k image on it - HUH! - WT*!?
    NEX-FS100 & BVM OLED Monitor on 6.29.11 on Vimeo

    Btw how come you chaps haven't got hold of the Sony OLED PVM-2541 for review? I'm positive that would get reference status! They've been around since autumn.
  23. Steve Withers

    Steve Withers Assistant Editor

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    Thanks for the clarification Rockie.

    I have to say that based on the photos the BT300 is a bit ugly, especially when compared to the beautiful VX300.
  24. Steve Withers

    Steve Withers Assistant Editor

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    There is some truth to that, in fact Blu-ray is 8-bit, 4:2:0 but the 30-bit image engine is designed to offer finer gradations in colour and better motion handling which it certainly appeared to do.

    I'm afraid Sony haven't offered us the OLED PVM-2541 for review but it certainly would be interesting.

    Let's see what CES has to offer.
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2011
  25. ertoil

    ertoil Member

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    Finally KURO gone......Panasonic VX300 is the new s***! :clap:
  26. vism

    vism Member

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    You need the internal maths to work at a minimum of 10 bits per colour to feed a 10 bit panel. If you don't, you get rounding errors which leads to colour banding even though the panel would happily produce a perfect picture.

    In other words, the panel and the engine both have to handle 10 bits per channel for banding to be reduced/eliminated.

    Indeed, to get to perfect picture, the maths should operate at a higher bit depth than the panel. Look out for a 36 bit engine in the future.
  27. Jon P

    Jon P Member

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    great review as ever. What light output where you getting from the screen once calibrated as normally the power supplies aren't man enough to give 35fl and then the brightness starts to drop as the set can't maintain it? Hoping the pro screens have a more robust power supply.
  28. outadtedtech

    outadtedtech Member

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    does panasonic actually look at your guys feedback?
  29. Steve Withers

    Steve Withers Assistant Editor

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    I could only get about 30fl in calibrated 2D mode but the power supply seemed suitably robust. The VX300 isn't going to burn your retinas but frankly that's a good thing because it makes for a more comfortable viewing experience in my opinion.
  30. Steve Withers

    Steve Withers Assistant Editor

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    Absolutely they do and in fact we have regular meetings with Panasonic, as well as other manufacturers, in order to give our feedback. If you look back at past reviews you will quite often see that issues raised one year have been addressed the next.

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