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Is the minimum wage holding back the UK?

Discussion in 'Politics & Economy Forum' started by sidicks, Feb 9, 2012.

  1. sidicks

    sidicks Active Member

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    So you don't think that the general level of services etc are better than 30 years ago??

    Don't the poorest in society have more 'goods' than in the past?

    LGS would suggest that it is perfectly reasonable that someone on benefits should have TV, Sky, a car, games console etc - was that the case 30 years ago??

    Isn't home ownership / car ownership much wider than 30 years ago??

    Etc

    :confused:

    That may be the case, but their standard of living is still higher.

    Isn't the average worker a net receiver of benefits rather than a payer of tax??

    What do you class as the average working man??

    As above, isn't the 'average worker' a net receiver of benefits rather than a payer of tax??

    What is your definition of 'contributing'??
    :confused:

    Sidicks
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2012
  2. Cloverleaf

    Cloverleaf New Member

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    And who are you to judge what I can afford ? :rolleyes: 14K is a lot of money to me, which I can ill afford to give away.

    I am being robbed. Bent over, and royally ****** up the ****.
  3. Badger0-0

    Badger0-0 Well-Known Member

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    Of course you are.
    Because you'd rather keep it all to yourself and stuff everyone else, because society doesn't matter at all, as long as you're doing ok :thumbsup:

    :facepalm:
  4. dejongj

    dejongj Well-Known Member

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    Strictly speaking why is that an employers problem? As said before the market would then force the wage up if nobody wants to work for that employer.

    But also someone had a choice. Heck my council tax bill is over three grand a year. No way I could afford to live on £2 per hour, now I've got a choice do a job that pays that kind of money, or as I have done is make myself valuable such that businesses pay me that every 30 seconds ;) especially in this country of free education everybody got the chance to do so.
  5. Berties

    Berties New Member

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    What like now? Many people do not want to work for NMW as it's not enough.
  6. Badger0-0

    Badger0-0 Well-Known Member

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    Sidicks,

    No, I don't.

    Goods do not equal better.
    You're going down the monetary possessions road again, as you always tend to, imo.

    As for home ownership, why is it so important?
    The Germans don't see it as a priority.

    Car ownership is a necessity, not a luxury, given that the employers flexibility that you speak of, means workers now have to travel long distances.

    Only by your standards. See above.

    You're kidding, yes?
    I suspect a trap there, which will lead back to my "average working man" references.
    Whatever, it's a red herring.
    Those at the top take a bigger share and don't put enough back in, imo.

    Anyone who works when there's worthwhile work to be had.

    And that doesn't mean a fortune better than dole either.
  7. dejongj

    dejongj Well-Known Member

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    I appreciate that, I wouldn't class it as enough for me and my family. So don't ;)
  8. sidicks

    sidicks Active Member

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    I'm providing examples - how would you measure it??

    I didn't say it was, but why are people so keen to buy houses if it's not important to them??

    The top 1% pay 25% of income tax - how much should they pay?

    Marginal tax rates for the highest paid are above 50% - what do think is a fair rate?

    People paying 50% tax are paying a minimum of 6-10 times the average person - how can you justify they aren't paying enough??
    :confused:
  9. Berties

    Berties New Member

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    Because I do not want to throw my wages for something which is not yours. If rent was vastly cheaper than buying, sure, but when renting a 2 bedroom apartment is still £400, it doesn't make sense. Put £400 month into your mortage.

    If you didn't need to pay council tax if you were renting, then I guess that would be ok (council tax is £120 a month?)
  10. IronGiant

    IronGiant Moderator

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    Why shouldn't you pay council tax because you are renting?
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2012
  11. Badger0-0

    Badger0-0 Well-Known Member

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    Sidicks,

    That's actually a good question.

    I'd suggest being better off is more about options.

    What I'm getting at there is, if you ain't working, the likes of Sky is more a necessity, not a luxury.
    How else do you pass your time?

    I'm basically a lazy sod, but was told (in a roundabout way) that working is actually good for you, in that it broadens your horizons and stimulates you :smashin:

    But the link has been lost in some families, imo, because the parents aren't able to pass it on by example.
    That is unforgivable and we are reaping what we've sown, in keeping a large pool of unemployed people with the aim of driving wages down.
    Thatcher again.
    (And if you don't think the recession under her reign was engineered, I'd suggest you are being naive)

    You mentioned home ownership first.
    Why are people so keen?
    Who knows?
    I'd suggest the fact that Thatcher sold off our social housing for stupidly cheap prices, which meant that the house that your parents had lived in all their lives, could be sold off for a fat (short term) fortune probably started it.

    That, coupled with the fact that we have little social housing left means renting is probably more expensive than buying, if you can get a mortgage without paying a 40% deposit, that is!.

    And you wonder why I think the system is all wrong? :rotfl:

    The top level were paying 90% or more in the 70's.
    I didn't see them running away then.

    Open your eyes :)

    It's not about tax.
    It's about fairness.
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2012
  12. GAZBEROTTEN

    GAZBEROTTEN Member

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    Im sorry but im going to have to disagree with sidlicks here. The most cheapest sky package is £20 per month including line rental and internet and the tv its self

    Thats £5 per week not even anything worth worrying about. That helps pass some time and keeps people in doors or entertains them. Take that away from people and they will get bored and suicide rates go up, crime rates rise etc well you get the picture.

    Increase minimum wage and you give people the motivation they need to go back to work. Right now minimum wage is a joke. It needs to be raised to the right ammount otherwise this just discourages people from working since they will only in most cases be in an even worse position than they where being unemployed. Don't forget theywould have to pax all relevant tax,pension, insurance then full rent,gas,electric,shopping. Reduce the average shopping,rent,pension,tax,insurance,gas,electric from that wage and you are mainly worse off.

    Hardly rocket science sidlicks
  13. dejongj

    dejongj Well-Known Member

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    I think it makes more sense to reduce benefits if it doesn't "pay" going to work.

    Also why can someone only do a job that is paid at the nmw? I think that is the point that is important.
  14. instigator

    instigator Member

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    Sure, just ask the Miliband brothers about their various tax dodges...
  15. sidicks

    sidicks Active Member

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    And you don't think that there are more / better options available now than before?

    What sort of options do you mean?

    Taking advantage of the variety of government training would be most appropriate.

    I agree, I suspect you blame Thatcher though....

    Ah the first ever use of the newly titled 'Argies Law' on an Internet forum...
    :facepalm:

    Twice in one post - congratulations...

    You might like to blame those people with numerous houses.....

    Really? I thought there was plenty of evidence that says otherwise.

    Tax take increased when the top rates reduced if I remember correctly...

    Open your eyes - equity of opportunity has never been better - too many people not prepared to make sacrifices and expect others to support them, that's the problem!

    Fairness?
    :suicide:
    How can you regard someone paying 20+ times as much income tax as someone on the average wage despite earning only 6 times as much as in anyway insufficient or 'unfair'...
    :confused:

    Sidicks
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2012
  16. Cloverleaf

    Cloverleaf New Member

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    Of course I would rather keep more of what i earn, than see it confiscated and given to people who are too lazy/too thick to get a job.

    Doh ! :facepalm:

    How much of your income do you voluntarily give away on top of your income tax then ?

    What's that ? You don't ? Oh, how selfish of you. stuff everyone else then as long as you are doing ok.....:laugh:
  17. Cloverleaf

    Cloverleaf New Member

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    Oh dear.

    The old "it's all Thatchers fault" :facepalm:. 30 years later :suicide:. I would have hoped that some people would think of something a bit more up to date and original, particularly as we have had 13 years of Labour Government in the meantime.


    Actually, there was a massive outflow of tax exiles back in the 70's. Why would anyone stay here and see 90% of their hard earned taken away ? What is the point of working at that level of tax ?

    As soon as the the top rate was reduced, tax receipts actually increased - that is the reality that the left never seem to grasp. There has to be an incentive for people to take risks and work hard.

    Anyone not understanding that needs to seriously wake up and smell the coffee, rather than indulging in envy and spite towards those who have more than themselves.
  18. instigator

    instigator Member

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    But what if I'm lazy and don't want to work? Why can't we have equality?

    I also want a rad games console...

    Anyone find the recent news that children are starting school and crapping themselves in classroom cause parents don't potty train them? That's funny innit?
  19. Kebabhead

    Kebabhead Active Member

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    Too busy giving them expensive iphones

    Maybe there needs to be a potty training app :laugh:
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  20. HydroSpook

    HydroSpook Member

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    In principle I agree with the NMW, but having worked for a few years in a Jobcentre saw that it's introduction brought with it a stigma attached to working for something with the word 'minimum' attached to it. Prior to NMW people were willing to apply for and accept jobs in 'low' paid fields.
    After it's inception some people refused to work for minimum wage and expected to walk into a job a few pounds an hour over the rate of NMW despite previously working in a similar role that due to NMW had the hourly rate considerably increased.

    My first job after uni was for Group Four Security, working at an airport for £2.25 per hour. The same job now is paid £6.08 per hour.

    Those on NMW haven't had to suffer a pay freeze over the last few years whereas as those who are just slightly above it, have and therefore in real terms are slightly less well off.
  21. instigator

    instigator Member

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    Wage for the Glorification of Homeland?
  22. pragmatic

    pragmatic Active Member

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    A question for anyone with the stats at hand, does inflation rise disproportionally when NMW rises (over years when it doesn't)?

    I suspect the effect of minimum wage increases the costs of goods and services, including housing and food. Much like QE it adds money to the system that needs to be absorbed, ultimately meaning those on fixed income (pensioners and some benefits) worse off and everyone else likely standing still.
  23. neilios

    neilios Active Member

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    Has your record got stuck,stuck,stuck,stuck....:laugh:
  24. la gran siete

    la gran siete Active Member

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    you strike me as right cup half empty type of bloke, whereas Badger clearly is cup half full type , ie he doesnt complain about his tax deductions.Anyone who is making upwards of 70k should be damned pleased instead of complaining they are being ****ed up the arse, bearing in mind the vast majority are far worse off:nono:
  25. sidicks

    sidicks Active Member

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    Nothing to stop the rest applying for those same jobs....
  26. neilios

    neilios Active Member

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    What a load of old cobblers...
  27. la gran siete

    la gran siete Active Member

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    ....and whats the likelihood of them getting it and who does the jobs they currently do? Fairly pointless comment isnt it?
  28. sidicks

    sidicks Active Member

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    Why?

    You mean because they don't have the relevant training or expertise?

    Again, nothing to stop them making sacrifices to improve themselves to allow them to apply....
  29. sidicks

    sidicks Active Member

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    Not at all - according to you, if lots of (suitably qualified) people applied for these jobs then the costs would reduce.

    Plenty of people waiting to take other vacancies as they become available - you keep telling me that all these unemployed people aren't lazy and want to work....
    :)
    Sidicks
  30. Kebabhead

    Kebabhead Active Member

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    Mean while back in the real world the job will have been taken

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