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Hfr 3d?

Discussion in 'Projectors' started by bilbosmeggins, Dec 9, 2012.

  1. bilbosmeggins

    bilbosmeggins Active Member

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    Noticed that the Hobbit is due to screen in HFR format (48 fps compared to 24fps). Image quality is supposed to be considerably better. Will current projectors be able to display this quality (assuming HFR Hobbit gets a release), or will we be looking at a new wave of projectors?
  2. Phil Hinton

    Phil Hinton Editor Staff Member

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    There are many mixed reviews of how this looks. I will be going to my local Odeon to see it in HFR and Steve Withers will be doing an article on the subject soon.

    Odeon have upgraded a number of their Digital projectors to handle this and a list of venues are on their website. Most chains will have some screens that have been upgraded.

    In terms of playback in the home, the Blu-ray standards do not allow for 48fps as far as I am aware at this time. This would be the only way to get this at home at the moment as the projector doing it would just be repeating frames it is sent by the BD.

    Like Atmos and other new technology, I think the cinemas will want to hold on to this technology for as long as possible so it draws punters. The jury is also still out on just how it looks, but for an idea, stick on frame creation on your TV or Projector.
  3. bilbosmeggins

    bilbosmeggins Active Member

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    I have read a lot of the mixed reviews. Really want to experience it for myself, but, looking at the HFR equipped cinemas, I am a long way from any of them. I'm thinking that maybe the technology just needs a bedding-in period. A chance for film makers to become accustomed as to how best to employ the technology. After all, a doubling in frame rate has to be a good thing.

    Will have to keep an eye on things then as regards emerging Blu-Ray developments. Guess it's asking too much that firmware updates could make it possible? Here's hoping :)
  4. Dan201

    Dan201 Active Member

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    Higher frame rate will take away the look of films that we are used to. Films with lots of panning will be smoother, other will just look fake and cheap. I can't explain why that happens when we see twice as many frames but it does happen.

    Losing the look we're used to isn't necessarily a bad thing if its replaced by something better, but it will take time to get used to the new look.

    Personally I can't see it taking off and expect it to be something like 3D.
  5. Raine

    Raine Member

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    So you're saying that if a BD player or whatever comes along with 48fps capability, then our current pjs would be able to play it no probs?
  6. Cliff

    Cliff Member

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    Just looking at the compatible signals for the Panasonic PT-at5000 they do not mention 48p, only 24p 50p and 60p.
    The closest is 50p so we could go back to the bad old days of DVD and accept a slight speed up to 50 ;)
  7. Phil Hinton

    Phil Hinton Editor Staff Member

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    No, what I was pointing out is the BD spec at the moment does not feature/support 48fps as far as I am aware (been a while since I read up on recent developments or white papers). Since a BD has to be to spec that will be the first thing that needs to change (as it did for 3D to be adopted). Then you have the issues of how do you compress and pack that on to a BD disc so it is readable by a player. Then we have the whole compatibility issue when it comes to kit.
  8. CoNs

    CoNs Member

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    is there any cinemas in Scotland showing HFR?
  9. chienmetallique

    chienmetallique Member

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  10. Phil Hinton

    Phil Hinton Editor Staff Member

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  11. CoNs

    CoNs Member

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    Thanks will have a quick look website is rubbish via phone
  12. cyberheater

    cyberheater Member

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    Showcase cinema near Uddingston is also show it in HFR. I'm going Fri night.
  13. Jazz Monkey Jr

    Jazz Monkey Jr Active Member

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    I'm going next Wednesday to Blackpool odeon, it will be interesting to see it in action.
  14. michael.redfern

    michael.redfern Member

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    And me next Thursday to Manchester Printworks for the full 48fps 3D on their IMAX screen.

    Can't wait actually....
  15. Dan201

    Dan201 Active Member

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    A friend just got back from seeing it in 48fps and commented that it made things look quite cheap.

    Im more curious to see it in 48fps than anything else. I can't imagine likeing it but hope Im wrong.
  16. Cliff

    Cliff Member

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    We can debate 3D, but 48fps?

    Of course it will be more natural and is the way to go. The whole idea of going to the cinema is to be lost in the reality of the film. Ideally we should not be able to see any flicker or juddering on movement. It should be like real life.

    We have only inherited the legacy system of 24 fps from the late 1920's. It was a compromise. Silent films had been run at slower speeds saving on film stock and allowing the shutter to open for longer so lighting would not need to be excessively bright. When sound came along the film had to be speeded up to 24 fps so that the optical soundtrack was just about intelligible.
    It could have been faster but then the shutter speed of the camera would be too fast!

    When TV came along, did we adopt 25p ? No way- what with all that judder! No, some bright spark interlaced the fields so that movement was smoother- 50 times a second.

    For sure 48fps will look more like video but that's like saying digital audio doesn't have the sound of Vinyl because there are no clicks and pops, scratches, rumble, wow and a bit of groove distortion! - when it is clearly better.
  17. Dan201

    Dan201 Active Member

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    It depends if you want to see an image that looks like real life or an image that looks 'film like'.

    Im not sure I want reality in a film, thats what documentaries are for.

    Im not saying I don't want 48fps, I haven't experienced it in a film yet.
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2012
  18. Jazz Monkey Jr

    Jazz Monkey Jr Active Member

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    I have been reading reviews and they all say 48fps makes it look like normal TV and they don like it. I think it will take getting used to as we have been used to 24fps for so long.
  19. cyberheater

    cyberheater Member

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    I finally experienced HFR 3D. In short, it's amazing but...

    There are problems. The image is extremely clear and lifelike. It's like your watching a huge stage play, and the sets and props have to be of very good quality or they start looking a bit fake. Because you are seeing into the movie with unprecedented clarity, everything has to be 100% spot on.

    You could tell that some of the stonework in the citadels etc.. were made of painted polystyrene. You could tell that sometimes, it looked like a person in a wig with a lot of makeup.

    But when it worked. Just wow. Really stunning. It was like you were there. You were in the heat of battle or flying on through the air on the backs of giant eagles, or traversing monstrously high mountains. In short, a fantastic advance in cinema viewing.

    It's going to be huge test for movie makers. They are going to have to really make the sets look real to be able to pull this off convincingly.

    For me. HFR 3D is now the gold standard. I really don't want to watch anything less.
  20. Dan201

    Dan201 Active Member

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    Thats some seriously high praise! Thank you for posting.

    I wish imax Waterloo were using HFR.
  21. toddy28

    toddy28 Member

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    There are problems. The image is extremely clear and lifelike. It's like your watching a huge stage play, and the sets and props have to be of very good quality or they start looking a bit fake. Because you are seeing into the movie with unprecedented clarity, everything has to be 100% spot on.

    You could tell that some of the stonework in the citadels etc.. were made of painted polystyrene. You could tell that sometimes, it looked like a person in a wig with a lot of makeup.

    I can't see how extra frames makes the stone work stand out more or a poor wig if its static shot wouldn't the poor set look the same in 24fps or 48 fps :thumbsup: i thought 48fps was for a faster more life like image with out judder on fast action pans ect
  22. cyberheater

    cyberheater Member

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    I don't understand why either. But it's true. If you can. Try to watch the film in 3D HFR. It's so clear and lifelike it's unbelievable.

    It's like the first time you see a HD film when your used to standard definition.
  23. toddy28

    toddy28 Member

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    Thanks , it just sounded strange
  24. Cliff

    Cliff Member

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    Oh dear! It sounds like we are going to have to upgrade all our AV gear yet again.

    I've already got 4k penciled in for 2014 ;)
  25. Goldenbone

    Goldenbone Member

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    I saw it in regular 24f at the local IMAX - in 3d. It certainly looked brilliant like that. I'm curious to see the new high frame rate format, but there's no screens showing it near me.. Plus, I don't think Id sit through the film again any time soon - the action was fun in places, but it was pretty padded out and overblown in general
  26. witchdrash

    witchdrash Member

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    Hopefully they can release both at the same time, the idea of having to replace my projector for 4k then getting upgraditus for hfr doesn't appeal :)
  27. Dan201

    Dan201 Active Member

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    Don't all our TVs/projectors go up to 60 FPS?
  28. soupdragon

    soupdragon Active Member

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    Yes, but they won't accept 48 frames and I don't think there is a player that outputs in that format either - possibly a HTPC but our displays wouldn't accept it.

    You can always buy the 1080/24 disc when it comes out and if your projector has it, use frame interpolation to make it 1080/48 ;)

    (Frame insertion:eek: ...I better run and duck for cover....)
  29. Dan201

    Dan201 Active Member

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    lol.

    I don't know a great deal about how a TV works but if the display can show 60fps then it should only be a firmware update to alloy it to accept whatever frame rate needed.
  30. toddy28

    toddy28 Member

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    Theaters show 3D movies at 24 frames per second (FPS), but actually flash each frame image three times. Called triple flashing, this technique means viewers are actually seeing 144 frames per second, of triplicated content.
    Triple flashing
    In order to project standard frame rate 3D with minimal viewer discomfort, the projector “flashes” a frame for each eye, three times as fast. This tripling of the frame rate (from 24 FPS, per eye to a total of 144 FPS) provides a smoother look and gives standard frame rate content the best motion rendition possible.

    Unfortunately, flashing the same frame three times takes some of the inherent flaws of standard frame rates and accentuates them when done in a 3D image. Producing and showing feature films at higher frame rates will minimize or stop the motion blur, judder and strobing audiences see today, providing a more picture-perfect 3D display.

    Now some of Hollywood’s most notable directors such as James Cameron, George Lucas and Peter Jackson, are pushing Hollywood Studios to bring high frame rates (HFR) to the big screen -- in 3D.

    Peter Jackson is filming a two-part prequel, “The Hobbit”, at 48 FPS and in 3D. The first of two parts is targeted for release in December 2012 and Jackson’s Park Road firm will be using the latest Christie Solaria projectors for post-production of the much anticipated film.

    Directing colleague James Cameron, an outspoken HFR proponent, has said the 3D sequels to “Avatar” will be shot at HFR. Film-technology buffs are speculating “Avatar 2” and “Avatar 3” will be shot at 60 FPS.

    Shot at higher frame rates, new 3D movies will be double-flashed by projectors to remove any hint of flickering. Fans watching a film produced at 48 FPS will see the same frame flashed twice per second, resulting in 96 FPS seen by each eye and 192 FPS overall. Films produced at 60 FPS, and then double-flashed, will result in moviegoers seeing a 3D film at an ultrasmooth 240 FPS.

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