[FAQ] Using two routers together/ Extending Wi-Fi

I'm getting there...
it's working but maybe not the way it should.

ISP is VirginUK using a SuperHub
2nd router is Belkin Wireless G (Model F5D7230-4)

Superhub
IP = 192.168.0.1
DHCP = 192.168.0.4 to 254
Belkin
IP = 192.168.0.2
DHCP = off

SuperHub connected to HomePlug (Ethernet1), and the other side is connected to Belkin (WAN/Internet)
Then have my TV & TiVo connected to the Belkin.

So, if this is all ok...
How do i connect the SuperHub and Belkin wirelessly instead of HomePlugs?
 
Hi, so I've been having a play with this with a Netgear router I had left over so I could extend the wifi to the far corners of Casa Del Shodan (poor connection when sitting on the throne you see).

So I got it all set up and working when it was downstairs so I'm happy that it works but.....

The primary network is..... shodanworld. I called the second one shodanworld 2. Should they have the same name? Should they have the same password?

Will devices need to sign out of one and into the other when the signal from primary gets flaky?
I've a feeling that the way I've set them up, they would need to.. I think maybe they should all be called the same name and then it all... flows but I really don't know.

Thanks in advance folks!
 
The choice is yours, there's not right or wrong way to do it. With dissimilar SSID's, you will have to manually disconnect from one hotspot and connect to the other. If you have the same SSID (and security type, passphrase, etc.- everything except the radio channel which should be different to reduce inter-hotspot interference) then client devices can automatically "roam" between the two. Most people prefer the latter.

Note that it is the client device that decides if/when to roam, not the routers. Also, it's Wi-Fi myth number 2 that Wi-Fi clients are always "hunting for the best signal" when in fact this is rarely the case. Some devices will doggedly hang on the a working link, no matter how badly it's performing, even though a better alternative is available. Some clients have a "roaming aggressiveness" control, but many (esp. phones and tablets) tend not to, thence you're in the gift of the device designer as to how often it roams.
 
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Right, cracked it (I think) so only thing left now is to run the cable from downstairs, through the ceiling to the upstairs and plug it in upstairs then see if we have full coverage upstairs...

Can't do it now as the kids are in bed and it would involve lifting floor boards and possibly hemmering and drilling. Can't do it tomorrow as its the work xmas do..

Thanks to everyone and I'll update with how it goes, when it goes.
 
Cabling done, and its all working fine and dandy. Except....

In my kids room, the signal always dropped off, which was the reason for me doing it. Sometimes they like to go to their room early and watch kiddie programs on their tablets and they always moan about the stuttering and buffering. I have gone through all the channel changing etc so running the second router to extend the signal was my last resort.

Anyhoo.. I found I still had the same problem after installing the second router. So I fired up the excellent android app Wifi Analyzer which shows real time wifi signals, the channels and the signal strength. It shows both my signals on their seperate channels and some neighbours although they are all on very seperate channels so not interfering with each other.
So walking around the house using the analyzer, it shows that going into the kids room is literally like a wifi dead zone. Almost like a Faraday cage!

There isn't anything else in the room which would cause interference. Nothing else that produces a radio or wifi signal and the house is end terrace (Or semi detached if you are an estate agent) and their room is the side that is not attached.

Nothing electrical in the loft and below is the kitchen. I went in there and turned the boiler off as it was pumping the central heating but that didn't make any difference.

So all they have in there is one light fitting and the plumbing for one radiator. The issue is better out in the hallway and better in the bathroom which is next to their room.

So I'm trying to think of what could be causing the interference. I'm sure it is that as it isn't a big house (two bedroom cottage in fact so quite small) so its not the distance between the router and their room.

Mind you...... The wall between out room and their room contains the chimney breast which runs through the center of the house. Could this be interfering with or sucking the wifi signal out preventing it from getting through to their room properly? If so, what can I do about it?


I was willing to do the second router as I had one so all it cost me was for the cable, which I got in a sale so its cost me next to nothing and I've learned a bit about networking. I already had a cable run from the living room to my room so I just run it along side that one (which I've since removed as its redundant now anyway - an old co-ax cable that never worked properly).

So as I see it...

Running a router in their room would not be so good because:-

a) my boy LOVES to know how things work... I'm sure we all get what I mean by that
b) The work involved in that, ie all carpets and floorboards up or long ethernet cable snaking around the entire upstairs of the house, is disproportionate to the problem
c) don't want to put a vent from our room, through the chimney into their room as too much work (disproportionate again) may not do any good and we wouldn't know till after, the missus can be quite vocal during the throes of passion and I wouldn't want the kids hearing that through the vent!!!

So I'm thinking about running ethernet into the loft and the router their either central to the entire upstairs or above their room. Problem with that is I have very few plug sockets in the house, especially upstairs, and no power to the loft so would need to run power and ethernet cable..


So folks, over to you. What do you think?
 
One way you can assess the signal attenuation is to take a router and your analyzer, set them 2m apart in free space and observe the trend in RSSI reported, thence take the same two devices and place them 1m either side of each wall, make the same observation and see what the difference is.

If it turns out that it is structure that's causing the problem, there isn't really much you can do about it apart from remove the structure or place an AP in/near the dead zone.

Most "computer" type wi-fi analyzers only "see" wi-fi Access Points and routers. They don't see wi-fi clients or other uses of the wavebands (baby monitors, video senders, microwave ovens, car alarms, etc.) Thus far you need "paid for" equipment to detect these other sources. The radio frequencies wi-fi uses are not dedicated to wi-fi, they can be used for other things. Wi-fi is usually regarded as a "secondary" use of the wavebands.

Some people have had issues with sheet-rock walls that have metal foil layers - got any of that...?

If you end up looking at placing an AP in the roof space, you could have a look at either one that work on "Power Over Ethernet" or a POE injector/splitter kit. As the name suggests, POE is a mechanism that allows power to be sent down ethernet (UTP) cables which would save you having to run in a power supply.
 
Hi all, firstly thanks to everyone who has contributed to this guide thus far, it's been extremely informative as I've now read through the entire thread.

I've got a Virgin Media Superhub (http://www.amazon.co.uk/NETGEAR-VMDG480-Virgin-Wireless-Router/dp/B00BRWMO5E) downstairs and I've run an ethernet cable to my PC upstairs. The WiFi coverage is good in most of the house, but it's a bit patchy in places upstairs so I'd like to extend the range by adding a second WiFi router upstairs. I've got an old Netgear router (http://www.amazon.co.uk/NETGEAR-WGR614-4-Port-Wireless-G-customers/dp/B002GTWRRC/ref=sr_1_1?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1388613273&sr=1-1&keywords=netgear wgr614) which I'm hoping to use.

Because I'm running the ethernet cable to both my PC and the router I've bought a TP Link swtich, which seems to be working ok.

Unfortunately, my networking skills being what they are, I'm stuck on step 6 of the long instructions.

6. Set the router's LAN address to one of the "spare" addresses determined previously. Some routers may drop your connection at this point and/or require a reboot. If necessary, do so. The router may also have changed the DHCP range it serves out (leaving your configuration computer with a "wrong" IP address,) so a reboot of the confguration computer to cause it to acquire a new IP address might be necessary. Thence surf back to the router's admin screen using the new IP address you just gave it.
.

Here's the DCHP settings page on the Virgin Superhub

owfx.jpg


I read somewhere that the IP address of the secondary router shouldn't end in a number highter than .254 - so I changed these settings so that the range is 192.168.0.253, which I assume frees up 192.168.0.254 for the secondary router?

I've done a hard reset on the secondary router and I've got the IP details from the primary router, and I've logged in to the secondary router. I've tried to change all of the necessary elements -

Here are some screen shots from the Netgear router

Here's the basic settings

tsyq.jpg


Here's the WAN set up

kinb.jpg


And here's the wireless set up where I changed the SSID to match my Virgin Router and used the Passphrase from the Virgin router (does it make a difference that the Virgin Router is set to WPA-Auto and the secondary router is set to WPA-PSK [TKIP] - should I change it to WPA2-PSK[AES]?)

r4ee.jpg


So, finally (!) here's the LAN settings page as it originally looked

h378.jpg


And here's the message I get when I try to change the LAN IP address to 192.168.0.254

8b0y.jpg


Any idea why I'm being told that the IP address conflicts with the WAN IP Subnet? And is there anything else obvious I've missed along the way?

Thanks in advance for any input, sorry for all the info, from reading other posts the more information up front the better!

Cheers :smashin:
 
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It's objecting because the external (WAN) IP address is in the same range as the internal (LAN) one. Leave all the WAN addresses blank on the secondary router - it doesn't need any as you aren't using the WAN port on the secondary routers. (Your secondary router won't actually be doing any "routing.")

I'd set router 2's security to WPA-TKIP + WPA2-AES (I suspect that's what WPA-Auto is.) Technically, AES is a bit better but some older devices don't support it and need TKIP. Of course, you could always experiment a bit and see if TKIP is required and if not, disable it.

BTW, I'd set the DHCP lease time on the SuperHub rather higher - 1 hour is a bit excessive, most people use 24 hours. It's no big deal, but it'll save your client devices having to do a DHCP Lease renewal every 30 minutes whence they risk their IP addresses changing.
 
It's objecting because the external (WAN) IP address is in the same range as the internal (LAN) one. Leave all the WAN addresses blank on the secondary router - it doesn't need any as you aren't using the WAN port on the secondary routers. (Your secondary router won't actually be doing any "routing.")

I'd set router 2's security to WPA-TKIP + WPA2-AES (I suspect that's what WPA-Auto is.) Technically, AES is a bit better but some older devices don't support it and need TKIP. Of course, you could always experiment a bit and see if TKIP is required and if not, disable it.

BTW, I'd set the DHCP lease time on the SuperHub rather higher - 1 hour is a bit excessive, most people use 24 hours. It's no big deal, but it'll save your client devices having to do a DHCP Lease renewal every 30 minutes whence they risk their IP addresses changing.

Just to clear up the IP issue, was I right to change the range on the primary router and set the secondary IP router to 192.168.0.254?

Since playing about with the settings yesterday I've had some trouble connecting to the WiFi network with my iPhone. It says it's connected but won't access the internet. Other devices like the iPads have been fine though..?
 
Just to clear up the IP issue, was I right to change the range on the primary router and set the secondary IP router to 192.168.0.254?

Yes.

Since playing about with the settings yesterday I've had some trouble connecting to the WiFi network with my iPhone. It says it's connected but won't access the internet. Other devices like the iPads have been fine though..?

Did you turn off the DHCP Server (note "Server" not "Client") on your NetGear (secondary) router...?
 
Ok, trying again.

Probably easiest to walk through each step

On the main page of the netgear router setup do I need to change anything?

tsyq.jpg


Under 'Wireless settings' I'm changing the security option to 'WPA-PSK [TKIP] + WPA2-PSK [AES]' and entering my network password.

Then on the LAN Setup page I'm changing the IP address to 192.168.0.254 and then unchecking the box which says 'Use router as DHCP Server'

b23s.jpg


I'm not sure which are the WAN IP addresses which you're referring to which I need to remove?
 
I'm not sure which are the WAN IP addresses which you're referring to which I need to remove?

The ones called "Internet IP address" - blank them all out and leave the radio button set to "Get Dynamically from ISP." It'll never actually get one, but that's fine, it doesn't matter and it should allow you to apply the changes.
 
Thanks for sticking with this! As I'm still a bit confused I've been through and numbered every instance where there is an IP address listed on the Netgear Router hub.

3jw5.jpg


bski.jpg

wk4a.jpg


So if I understand correctly, it's 5 that I'm changing to the new IP address of 192.168.0.254 once I've deselected 'Use Router as DCHP Server'

And from your previous comment I should remove the IP address at number 1 and leave the setting on for 'Get dynamically from ISP'. The trouble is, the four boxes for entering the IP addresses for number 1,2 and 3 are all greyed out, and the first three boxes for 4, 7 and 8 are also greyed out, meaning I can't seem to remove the numbers?

I'm starting to get the feeling that Mr Netgear doesn't want to play ball here..!
 
You probably cannot change 1,2,3 because it's set to "Get Dynamically from ISP." Try clicking "Use Static IP Address" which should open up 1,2,3 so you can edit them, wipe the number out then check "Get Dynamically from ISP" again. If that doesn't work, let us know and I'll invent some "junk" values to populate these boxes with.

It probably doesn't matter what 4 is, but try the same approach of check the box "Defaullt DMZ Server", wipe out the numbers, then uncheck the box again.

5 needs to be 192.168.0.254 as that's what you've choose to use for this router and 6 should be 255.255.255.0

Changing 5/6 may cause 7/8 to repopulate with some new numbers, but it doesn't matter what's in them as we're going to uncheck "Use Router as DHCP Server" which effectively ignores those numbers.
 
I think your patience may outstrip mine here! Many thanks again.

I've followed your advice and checked 'Use static IP Address', removed all of the values in 1,2 and 3 and then checked 'Get Dynamically from ISP' at this stage if I try to save these settings I get the message 'Invalid Primary DNS address, please enter again'

I can't change the first three boxes of 4, even if I uncheck 'Default DMZ Server' so I think I'll have to leave that as it is.

No problem changing 5 and 6, I just still get the error message 'IP address conflicted with WAN IP' (it does also repopulate 7/8)
 
The DNS Server addresses are in the frame below 1,2,3. They should also be empty and set up for "get automatically from ISP." Like much of these settings, these aren't going to have any effect "in service" - mostly we're just trying you tell your router enough lies that it will let us change 5/6.

If it insists on having a DNS server specified, try something like 192.168.0.1 as the primary (secondary isn't required.)
 
Okay, so I removed all of the addresses in 1,2 and 3 by setting it to 'Use static IP address' then checking it back to 'Get dynamically from ISP' and the addresses remain blank.

I then entered the address 192.168.0.1 as the primary DNS. Doing this enabled me to apply the changes and the page then goes through an 'applying settings' screen - however when it's finished applying the settings the addresses 1,2 and 3, plus the two DNS addresses below are all populated and greyed out, which means that I'm stuck with the same issue of the conflicted WAN IP subnet address when I try to change address 5.

Arghhhh....

Is is just me, or is the Netgear router particularly complicated? I've read through numerous instructions here and elsewhere on the web for setting up a secondary router and they all seem to imply that it's relatively straightforward!
 
I wonder if it's worth doing a "reset to factory defaults" and start again from scratch. It's not usually this complicated.
Was this a router supplied by an ISP (it's not unheard of for them to flash them with custom firmwares) or was it obtained retail...?
 
Good point. It was a router which was supplied by Virgin which I used before I got the new Superhub (they didn't collect it when they installed the new hub). This could have something to do with it. I've now tried to do a full erase and reinstall of the router, and I've been through the process again, but have got stuck at the same points. It looks as though Virgin have added custom firmware as the default SSID post-install is Virgin Media.

Also, on the actual unit itself it lists the default username as 'Virgin Media' so I guess this may never work as a secondary router.

As a side note, after a bit of digging around I've found out that Virgin have a new Superhub, which uses a dual frequencies of both 2.4 and 5Ghz which means I'll be able to use my iPhone 5S and iPad Air on the higher bandwidth and hopefully get better overall coverage, which might solve my problem.

If I still find I've got a few blackout spots (and to be honest they're pretty small as it is) then I'll just pick up a standard router from fleabay and try the process again!

Sorry it's ended in frustration and failure.. but I am extremely grateful for your input - it just looks like this one was doomed from the outset. o_O

Now - the final question remains.. how do I restore my settings so that I'm using the current virgin media router for my WiFi and not the Netgear router, as it appears as though my iPhone will only connect to the Netgear router, and won't pick up the WiFi signal from the Virgin router when I try to swap the cables back?
 
If you are prepared to risk bricking the NetGear, you could maybe try getting hold of a "bog standard" firmware image for the applicable model and flash it with that.

Did you change any wi-fi settings on the SuperHub...? They should be the same as ever they were. Changing the SuperHub DHCP range wouldn't have affected anything in the wi-fi settings.

You might need to look at your clients and tell them to "forget" the Netgear SSID as they may be connecting to that in preference to the SuperHub.
 
Thanks, I wouldn't mind bricking the netgear router as it's effectively bricked anyway as the Virgin firmware makes it pretty useless for any other function. I've downloaded the latest firmware from the Netgear site, and tired to install it, but to no avail. Looks like Virgin have locked down the firmware to prevent people from upgrading it.

In terms of resetting the WiFi back to the Virgin router, I didn't change any settings in the Superhub, other than the DHCP range (as far as I can remember?). It looks like the iPhone is still trying to connect to the Netgear router, but after telling the phone to 'Forget this Network' it seems to have reconnected to the Virgin router.

I guess the moral of this story is you really don't get something for nothing.. I thought I'd got a 'free' WiFi router when Virgin left this one behind, but that appears not to be the case. I can't complain really, and hopefully the upgrade to the Superhub 2 will help my WiFi blakcspots.

I wonder whether it's worth adding a note to the instructions on the first page of this thread to point out possible problems with routers supplied by ISPs, as I guess there'd be a few people in a similar position to me?

Anyway, many thanks for your help with this - I now know a heck of a lot more about secondary routers than I ever intended to... but if I do decide to add a generic router in future I'd feel a lot more confident about doing so! :thumbsup:
 
Looks like I spoke too soon re. the iPhone connecting to the WiFi network. Although the phone appears to connect to the WiFi network with no problems, and says it has a full signal, it's not actually downloading any content and applications can't access the internet. This appears to be quite sporadic, and sometimes it will access the internet?

The IP address of the phone is 168.192.1.2, which isn't within the range listed on the Virgin Router (168.192.0.2 - 168.192.0.253). And both the Router and DNS are set to 168.192.1.1

Other than entering a static IP is there any way I can change this?

Thanks!
 
Sounds like the phone is hanging on to a DHCP lease it acquired from the NetGear. That would manifest itself as successful wi-fi Assiciation (with either router,) but no Internet access and little or no local LAN access. This is why you have to disable the DHCP Server in secondary routers in multi-router installations - to prevent this happening.

If you turn your NetGear off and wait long enough (24 hours typically) the DHCP lease the phone acquired from the NetGear will time out and your phone will go get a new lease from "somewhere" which will (should) be SuperHub if it's the only functioning DHCP Server.

You might be able to "force" it by forgetting the NetGear SSID and power cycling the phone (or anything else similarly affected,) but if not, I suspect the problem fill fix itself after 24 hours without the NetGear active.
 
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Thanks. As you said, after about 24 hours of the net gear router being off all phones and iPads in the house have now successfully reconnected to the Virgin Router.
 

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