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Change to the rules to improve the atmosphere

Discussion in 'AVForums News & Notices' started by Stuart Wright, Nov 12, 2006.

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  1. gosties

    gosties Member

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    In my opinion most of the posters should have the sense anyway to ensure they don't abuse the guidelines. Their is nothing wrong with a bit of humour or fun but we all have to bear in mind that sometimes young children could be reading these posts. In essence a little common sense could go a long way.
  2. Leevocals

    Leevocals Member

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    I've only posted a few comments regarding the new Toshiba 32wlt68, all ignored, it hardly inspires you to post or makes you feel welcome...
  3. senu

    senu Well-Known Member

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    I wouldnt take it personally.
    Sometimes frivoulous or thoughtless replies are worse than none.
    As you say the TV is new..maybe along the line a fellow owner or aspirant will post
    I assure you the general tone is welcoming but Id rather not comment on your Post ( for the sake of it) if I percieve my post might be pointless

    PS: I heard in the radio 30 min ago about a man getting sentenced for "web rage".
    Apparently he went to attack somebody with whom he had been trading insults in a chat room:devil:
  4. SamRadford

    SamRadford Active Member

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    I wasn't being insulting. I merely (not mearly) pointed out that I can't answer a question if I can't understand it. So if people want my "expert" advice they should phrase their questions in standard English and not some phonetic version of the way they presumably speak with their peers. I used the quoted text as an example of a phrase that was incomprehensible to me. It may as well have been in Japanese.

    Frankly, I don't care whether people observe the rules of grammar or not. You can type "mearly" instead of "merely" and I can guess what you mean. All I ask is that they communicate in a way that everyone can understand. Many of us otherwise knowledgeable oldies were not brought up on txt-spk or street patois so we can't understand it. Feel free to use your own language amongst your friends and family but please stick to English on this public forum if you want everyone to understand.

    Correct spelling helps but is not essential unless you actually type the wrong word - in which case it leads to misunderstanding. I got caught myself when I managed to type "feasting" instead of "fasting". The spelling was correct but it was the wrong word. Careless of me and it caused a backlash which I could have avoided. Watch that spelling because if you type, for example, "brought" instead of "bought" it can change the meaning completely.

    For more info see http://www.glodark.com/english.htm
  5. sjp1966

    sjp1966 Member

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    I understand your reasons for maybe tightening up certain rules but surely this is open to massive interpretation. there are certainly some people that would say some things face to face that other may find unacceptable.

    So is it a case of your benchmark being a case of people should not say anything that YOU wouldnt say face to face?
  6. Knyght_byte

    Knyght_byte Active Member

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    If you reread the post, it says member's', as in plural. This would mean a general community definition. Being a UK based website this would follow the sense of UK style social structure. In other words, be polite and well mannered towards each other, if you choose to disagree on a subject then disagree with tact and civility. Any unnecessary negative attitude (or 'social disorder' as it might be termed) may well lead to being reprimanded somehow. As it would if you caused a breach of the peace in the street by arguing in a derogatory manner with someone you didnt know with no just cause.

    Hope that narrows down the amount of misinterpretation possible :)
  7. nsherin

    nsherin Member

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    Stuart,

    Definately a very good idea what you and the other mods are proposing. Differences of opinion and good debate is healthy - we'd all be boring if we all had the same opinion and liked the same stuff. However, personal attacks, which could be classed as bullying, aren't necessary at all.

    As for those who are debating over signatures - personally, I find it interesting to see what other members are using. Plus, there is a certain pride about 'showing off' the kit you've bought with your hard earned cash. Not necesarily willy-waving, but just being proud and content that you get enjoyment from the kit you've got. Nothing wrong with that in my eyes.

    Once again, thanks for the hard work put in by yourself and the other mods for a forum that discusses a wide range of AV topics and is a fun and informative place to hang out.
  8. contraste

    contraste Member

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    I applaud the new initiative and hope it works well.

    I must say that I've never been overly bothered by slightly stroppy posts or posters, this is a public forum after all and it comes with the territory in my opinion. In fact, the rudest comment I've read here was written by one of the moderators, some of whom seem to slip into mild sarcasm occasionaly.
  9. Hades

    Hades Active Member

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    I have been a member of AV Forums for a while but never a regular poster. Main reason for this was being a member of another forum.... where if you are not a regular poster you are treated like dog poo. the more posts you seem to have in said forum the more respect you seem to gain.

    I have started to post in here on nearly a daily basis now (even if only one post per day). This is because of the nice atmosphere that this forum has.

    At the moment I have not seen any nasty 'in your face' replies to any posts from a MOD. But yet in the other forum the MOD's are VERY power hungry... and really do talk down to people.

    This is without a doubt one of the best forums on the Internet as far as I am concerned... and long may it live.
  10. FullFat

    FullFat Member

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    Great news, and to be honest I can't see how any body could complain about it.

    Having read the thread and some of the comments about making new members feel welcome I have a couple of points to make. All new members need to find their feet. They may miss the stickies full of FAQ's, they may not realise how to perform a search, they may just be blown away by the sheer amount of information that comes back in response to a search. All in all I'd say just be nice. When I joined I was probably guilty of all the above but found that a helpful polite reply actually encouraged me to come back and helped me to avoid the repetative post!

    Play nice everyone.
  11. Mark_a

    Mark_a Member

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    Reading this thread I am reminded a bit of the old ITC adverts that had some cops apprehending a bunch of bad guys on a bridge and using the most genteel of language as they slap on the handcuffs.

    Regards

    Mark
  12. chachi

    chachi Guest

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    I always thought the main point of a kit list was to allow people with the same kit locate/contact another directly if need be for advice and/or allow those contemplating upgrading to contact in a similiar fashion. I know I've taken dozens of emails/PMs about Rotel, Oppo or such over the years ...
  13. SSB

    SSB Member

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    Funnily enough someone kicked off the same e-penis / signature discussion in the photography forum these past few days - turns out the original poster had too many babychams before posting. Needless to say, the discussion was mature and eventually, when the truth came out, everyone had a jolly good laugh. Hurrah.

    I have to agree though that lazy posts don't really merit a response, particularly those that are written in some pseudo txt-spk garbage. Could we perhaps have a smiley that says (something catchy like) ...

    "For the benefit of the English speakers here, what the chuff are you talking about?"

    Actually, in the terms and conditions we could have stern warnings about the perils of posting while intoxicated and about taking the time to express yourself in a clear and respectful manner.
  14. la gran siete

    la gran siete Active Member

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    dont think its so much a question of laziness as perhaps not having the time and if someone can provide a quick answer then why not ask. I dont have problem with that . I do, though ,get irritated with members who constantly ignore newbies or even non newbies who post a reasonable question prefering instead to indulge in their incestuous postings with their favourite respondees. There are one or two threads like that and I remember one being closed because it had got so extreme ie just a few members endlessly chatting amongst themselves about the same issue. They got quite upset - quote " it was one thing that lightened up my day"- or words to that effect. I ended up feeling quite sorry for them but surely inclusivity not cliquism is the name of the game.

    Apart from that I have absolutely no problems and would endorse every positiive comment that as been made about this site,. Even the spelling and typos, which I am often guilty of because of my appalling typing skills, are ok with me.Live and let live!

    Another thing being here is a bit like being someone else house where there are rules to be observed (albeit unwritten ones).If one doesnt like the house or its rules one can leave , likewise the owner of said house can ask someone to leave as well.
    There are some sites that are far more draconian. For eg one I go to, any post deemed to be "chatting" gets deleted tout suite, likewise anything remotely off topic or starting a thread which already been covered: "Do a search, siete!". Bad spelling and grammar elicit slaps. In my first week I got several slaps and two warnings.:eek: :devil: Still there though - I've been moderated:D
  15. ZippyCat

    ZippyCat Member

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    I must say the forum currently has a friendlier atmosphere than it did three or four months ago, the crackdown on aggressive, insulting posts seems to be working. For instance, the cables forum used to be rife with derogatory comments towards other members, in particular new members, who were inquiring about the validity of claimed system improvements. There used to be a ‘distinguished member’ who shall remain nameless, who seemed responsible for the bulk of these derogatory comments. Since their ban the general atmosphere has vastly improved, which just goes to show it’s only a few individuals that can generate an intimidating atmosphere. I hope the current good-natured atmosphere continues, and the moderators continue to stamp down on individuals breaking the rules. :smashin:
  16. fraggle

    fraggle Member

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    I think this "tightening of the rules" is setting down in writing what the mods have been doing all along, to give them a little bit more backup (or justification if you like) against aggrieved users when they have to step in and ask people to tone it down.

    I'd just like to say job well done since day dot to all the mods for using their own common sense and initiative in moderating these forums in this manner. :clap:
  17. av-phile

    av-phile Guest

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    Here are my thoughts about the changes you plan to put in place. They won't sound very friendly, so I expect this post to be removed soon.

    I never thought nor had any expectations that joining forums or message boards was about being social and friendly. While being so is nice, it lowers the quality of opinions posted. Being nice and friendly to the next poster has this uncanny effect of having a higher tolerance for unfounded, stupid, witless and senseless posts that a nice and friendly atmosphere can engender. Pls remember that message boards are about messages, about posts. Not about people. People can be friendly. Posts don't, can't and shouldn't. With message boards, moderators and posters should be able to separate the post from the poster. That is why message boards and forums are supposed to be IMPERSONAL. So why inject any need to be friendly?

    You know, we are talking about anonymity here and message boards and forums are precisely about anonymous exchange of opinions. One shouldn't even remotely assume that they might meet each other some day and go on a real duel. You are essentially setting a standard that is not only impossible to enforce because the degress of friendliness are a highly subjective and personal attribute, but more relevantly this "friendliness" is entirely never contemplated nor is necessary in an anonymous message board. People opine and remark on message boards in reaction to a post. If you have to hold back because you might inadvertanly hurt the poster, then you lose the spontaneity and directness of postings that have made message boards and forums popular for their impersonal exchange of ideas and opinions regardless of who the poster is.

    There are only TWO rules I know that must govern message boards and forums. One is RESPECT for the opinion of fellow members. And we all know opinions can be hurtful, disagreeable or open to argument even when talking face to face. And Two, if you have to disagree, attack the POST, not the POSTER. You cannot be friendly and argumentative with the post at the same time. Disagreeing, no matter how courteous, carries an adversarial stance that can never be percived as being friendly. You cannot expect every poster to display tactfulness and diplomacy when disagreeing. You are asking for the moon.

    When you attack a post, you do not get personal. It becomes personal when you attack the poster. "What nonsense" or "This is total crap" is not the same as posting "you're stupid" or "what an idiot," or "just shut up." Because the former attacks the post, the latter attacks the poster. Moderators should learn to distinguish between the two, separatng the post from the poster. You can't very well do that if you have a benchmark for being friendly. Friendliness is between people. Not between posts.

    That is precisely the beauty and uniqueness of message boards. In a free exchange of opinions and information, no one is bound by the confines of diplomacy that hides meaning of what you say with ambiguity and double speak just so the other party is not hurt. Messages boards are about spontaneous POSTS, not about the people making those posts. When a post invites argument, you have to be seasoned diplomat to sound friendly when you already want to declare war.

    This is the problem. Onion-skinned posters can complain about a post they find "unfirendly" Who is to judge and by what measure do you plan to weigh that a complained post is "unfriendly" and therefore merits the axe? What is courteous to one can be interpreted as discourteous by another. You can expect a member who is hurt at the slightest remark he finds unfreindly to complain to you. This is a lose-lose situation. If you hav to axe every post complained about, you might hav no posts left. And if you have to disagree with a complaint, you can expect fewer complaints in the future and your rule becomes toothless. Over the last 12 hours, 4 of my posts hav been deleted because a few must have complained about my use of a derisive term that is essentially a self-contained opinon deserving respect. And all because those terms hurt their misplaced sensibilities. My goodness. A forum is precisely an exchange of opinions, not about people behind posts getting hurt.

    Now that's the problem. We know very well that common sense is often rare. The rules and standards you plan to impose will definitely stifle free discourse. And at the rate discussions are going on in the various threads pitting BD with HD DVD, you might be deleting every other posts quite often; sooner or later no one will be interested posting here.

    I hope so too. But being the friendliest and the most informative are often on opposite sides. Just ask your college professor if being freindly ever got him anywhere to getting the facts rammed down his students' heads.

    The nice thing about anonymous message boards and forums is that your opinions immediately get the scrutiny and remark it deserves. IN effect, there developes a high demand for maturity and responsibility in making posts. Being nice to each poster simply encourages posters to be sloppy and inaccurate because they know fellow posters have a high degree of tolerance for stupid, witless and nonsensical posts. But when you know your posts will be scrutinized without mercy, then your statements often carry a higher degree of substance, careful dilligence or a more thorough research and backing than otherwise.

    Again message boards are not about friendliness. If you want to be friendly, that's better served in match making sites, not in specialty forums where unambiguous opinions in posts are laid bare for everyone to question or scrutinize without having to be bothered about the poster's senstivities. This is perhaps the first and only forum I am a member of that has included friendliness as a benchmark for allowing or deleting posts. If you have the time and patience to apply your new standards to past posts, I won't be surprised you might be able to free up more than 50% space in your database and hard drive.
  18. Daddy k

    Daddy k Well-Known Member

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    which is possibly why its one of the best, and one where each thread doesnt stray too far off topic!

    far too many forums have more slaggin matches going on than the actual discusion of the topic!
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  19. Ian J

    Ian J New Member

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    Nobody complained about your attempt at trolling by using terms of derision but the forum mods did start a thread within the HD club asking that these terms were not used which you ignored.

    You may refer to the term "blurry" as a "self-contained opinon deserving respect" but I think that the rest of us agreed that it was just a childish attempt to stir up ill feeling.

    To put your mind at rest, no-one complained about your use of the term but I deleted your posts anyway and it certainly didn't hurt my sensibilities, misplaced or othewise as I couldn't care less about HDD or Blu-ray one way or the other.

    I'm afraid that I have neither the time nor inclination to discuss the rest of your post though.
  20. contraste

    contraste Member

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    Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
  21. av-phile

    av-phile Guest

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    I suggest you better checked one or two posts complaining about the use of Blurry, like those of zz101. To say that nobody complained flies in the face of the facts. And with regard to a thread on this, I am not aware of.

    Try not to display your ignorance about trollng because for a moderator with more than 10000 posts behind, you obviousy betray a shallow understanding of what trolling is.

    The term troll is highly subjective. Some readers may characterize a post as trolling, while others may regard the same post as a legitimate contribution to the discussion, even if controversial. The term is often used to discredit an opposing position, or its proponent, by argument

    In Internet terminology, a troll is a person who enters an established community such as an online discussion forum and intentionally tries to cause disruption, often in the form of posting messages that are inflammatory, insulting, or off-topic, with the intent of provoking a reaction from others.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

    For a moderator who cannot distinguish between trolling and an honest opinion in a discussion needs to review his position. Nothng in the word Blurry is "inflammatory" unless one is hurt because my low opinion of the format goes against his - a hurt that a forum shouldn't bother about. Nothing in the term Blurry is "insulting" because it is just a low opinion about a thing, NOT a PERSON OR POSTER. You don't insult a thing, you insult a poster. And definitely, there's nothing "Off-topic" about either my posts or the term Blurry. If you recall the origins of the term, I did say in zest that when you pronounced " blu ray" fast enough, it starts to sound like blurry. At a time when the firstt MEPG2 releases of the format on BD25 were being described as soft, the term has its descriptive connotation, however derisive. The fact that a lot of fellow posters were amused by this as and found it apt term for the format shows how level-headed posters have accepted the term.


    My goodness, I suggest you get your act together and check how many posters have adopted the derisive term to refer to a product that rightly or wrongly describes in a word their LOW OPINION of the format. Low or not, it's still an opinion you apparently do not respect.

    A childish attempt to stir up ill feeling? My goodnesss. Since when are forum moderators supposed to be interested in the feelings of its posters? A forum is suppoed to be IMPERSONAL.

    And childish? I had opined in another thread about this to say the this hobby is essentially childish to begin with. Nothing describes in a word the selfish self-indulgent luxuries underpinning the HT and audiophilic hobby than to say it is childish. Even my old folks are saying "grow up" everytime they see me what to them is wasting money on new DVDs or new gears. Even this silly format war is childish. So don't pressume to lecture anyone on what is chldish or not. There are people who don't find anything serious or needs to be treated seriously in this silly format war. If there is anything CHILDISH about all this brouhaha are the moderators deleting posts because some cry babies convinced them so with Childish arguments.

    Then I suggest you just delete that post because I had wrongly assumed moderators with better sense of judgement can find my argument worth looking into. Becaue if you have the time to look into every post to check how friendly each post is, finding the time to answer my legitimate points observed and understood by all respected forums out there is the least I expect from level headed unbiased moderators.
  22. av-phile

    av-phile Guest

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    I agree, nothng exemplifies this than the response I got.
  23. MrGrumpie

    MrGrumpie Active Member

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    Posts can't be friendly? What drivel. I gave up with your diatribe just after this.

    Personally I've met lots of great people on here, and met a few of them face to face.
  24. av-phile

    av-phile Guest

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    Your post is a perfect example of why it can't be.
  25. Knyght_byte

    Knyght_byte Active Member

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    So since this thread went up, the forums has moved from strength to strength with lots of new members commenting on how nice and friendly it is here. How welcoming it is. How easy it is to find useful help without pointless bickering mucking up the threads. Where there is useful debate it is applauded.

    To some people the internet is a faceless and emotionless form of communication. To others it is not, it is a useful way of learning and expressing with people of all cultures, backgrounds and societies. Without a form of empathy to the posts then it would be nothing more than a basic knowledgebase that manufacturers sites have. With the empathy behind a number of the postings (providing they remain on topic to the forum section) AVF has become a site where people dont just use it to exchange information, but also ideas, and more and more frequently to meet up with people and check out other equipment or have days out etc. Without the personable approach this would be less likely to happen.

    As for who decides what should and shouldnt remain in posts, well, ultimately that is down to the site owner obviously, the same as any pub can kick out a patron it decides is not welcome due to their behaviour. However the site is tended to on a lower level case by us moderators. Whilst none of us will always make the perfect choice, for the most part we have been using the site long enough to know what course it steers along by. And when we do happen upon an instance where we cant be sure to make the right choice, then we refer it to the other mods to make a group consideration or put it to the more senior admin.

    In 12 years almost of using the net, I've admin'd clan servers on a limited basis, I've run chat rooms and streaming sites, plus various other things, and I can say quite happily that AVF is one of the few sites I've enjoyed spending a lot of time on, hence I do. Why? because it is personable, people are friendly and respect each other generally. If someone realises a joke they made was offensive to a particular person, regardless of its severity, they generally apologise in good grace. When they dont then the Mods step in and resolve the situation on a invidivual basis. Whilst we have some blanket rules, as with any form of membership based community, there are some where a leeway would be built in due to situations not always being exactly the same where present. The laws of this land are the same, some things are hard and fast, other things are more flexible.

    Anyhow, to close my post, I'll reiterate one thing I said nearer the beginning of it. Since this thread has gone up, people have taken note and are generally even more helpful, welcoming and friendly to each other and new members. I think a good testament to this being true is the amount of new female members I've noticed in some sections I Moderate, this hobby is becoming more gender friendly certainly, but most other sites of this nature I've visited dont endear themselves usually to women. It's a bit like when Pubs started to use big large windows at the front and have nice open plan seating areas, they did it to encourage women in to drink....and it worked.

    Ok, i'll stop here, anyone make it this far? :D
  26. Stuart Wright

    Stuart Wright AVForums Founder Staff Member

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    Unfortunately posts which contain misinformation are all too common on forums. Hopefully people reply correcting the OP. In this case, your post is so diametrically opposed to the truth that I thought it would be interesting to reply.
    The changes have been in place for some time now and seem to have had the desired effect and been appreciated by the larger community.
    Perhaps not. But as far as this forum is concerned, now you know different.
    No it doesn't. You get more people wanting to join in the discussions because they don't feel intimidated by an unfriendly atmosphere. You also get more posts because people are not afraid to express themselves. They are protected from insults by the rules.
    No, the stupid, witless and senseless posts usually appear in response to insults, so you are incorrect.
    Totally wrong. Who posts those messages? Forums are communities. You can't have a community without people. Forums *should* be about people. This one certainly is.
    Disagree completely.
    You're totally wrong. This forum is supposed to be personal and the community in general wants it to be friendly.
    You may be talking about anonymity, but I'm not. Anonymity has no relevance at all. It's not a requirement of a forum and it's actually a barrier to a better forum. If you meet internet friends face to face, you appreciate that you (usually) then have a much better relationship online.
    Again, totally wrong. It may not be contemplated by you, but I'm sure it is by the vast majority of other people.
    What you are trying to say here is that you feel people can't post their opinion if they have to 'hold back'. What you really mean is that you personally can't express yourself without being rude.
    Rubbish. You are saying you can't argue a point without being unfriendly. If it's true then it's rather unfortunate for you.
    ...from you, perhaps. Not all arguments have to be the Monty Python type. Some social graces facilitate friendly debate. Something valued so much that illustrious centres of learning like Oxford and Cambridge have debating societies.
    Rubbish. Lets use your word 'attack' which you use to describe aggressive insult rather than any reasoned argument. By attacking the post of someone, you are attacking their opinion. They will get just as upset as if you are attacking them personally. A person is defined, at least in part, by their opinions.
    If you want to wage war on someone, then you can go do it on someone else's forum. You make sweeping generalisations about what you think message boards should be. In reality, messageboards are something quite different.
    You're repeating the same rubbish over and over.
    :rolleyes:
    The rules we have implemented have definitely not stifled free discourse and have made the forums a more welcoming place to more people.
    I think people are more likely to respect someone they like.
    :rotfl:
    Does anyone else think this argument is the wrong way round? Being offensive to each poster simply encourages posters to be sloppy and inaccurate because they know fellow posters have a high degree of tolerance for stupid, witless and nonsensical posts.
    Again, yes they usually are. And this one certainly is.
    So you equate civilised concourse with ambiguity? You can't be specific without being rude? Is that what you are saying?
    You seem to be of the opinion that a forum doesn't need to be friendly. Perhaps you are the sort of person who goes to the pub to have arguments with people rather than have friendly conversations. Perhaps you are the equivalent of Harry Enfield's short bloke character with a chip on his shoulder. Certainly sounds like it.
    Pretty much everything you have written above is wrong. Both generally when it comes to the fundamental running of forums and what makes them popular and specifically when it comes to this forum. I've been a little abrupt in telling you it's rubbish. Believe me, I'm being conservative in my opinion.
    It sounds like you don't like the way these forums are run. If that is the case, don't visit. Start your own forum, run the way you like it.
  27. Stuart Wright

    Stuart Wright AVForums Founder Staff Member

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    A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
  28. Hades

    Hades Active Member

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    Stuart, this is why I frequent this forum now more than any other. As people are more friendly in here and the MOD's don't snap at you for the slightest mistake. Like not affiliating a link or something :) Hmmmm now what forum could I be talking about there I wonder :D

    Keep up the good work.... because its what makes this forum work.

    Gazza.
  29. Seth Gecko

    Seth Gecko retired member

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  30. Ian J

    Ian J New Member

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