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2011 D Series Samsung Firmware issues and Poor PQ.

Discussion in 'Plasma TVs' started by gaz2810i, Nov 3, 2011.

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  1. markymiles

    markymiles Active Member

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    Not sure I agree, the Pannys still have 50hz issues and apparently green blobs, not to mention inflated prices.
  2. janos666

    janos666 Member

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    Imagine, I also calibrated a set with the new firmware and I thought it's alright.

    It was right after the update came out and I didn't know it's harmful. I updated the firmware on the TV as a part of my regular calibration process.


    I could get the gray-scale and 2D CIE x,y charts look like they were printed out from a school book!

    But guess what... The guy called me back a few days ago and asked me to visit him again because he thinks I made a mistake.
    I sent him the calibration report with the exceptionally good looking CalMan charts.


    I got home at the weekend and I re-calibrated my own unit as well. Yet again, reference quality according to the basic 20 point gray-scale and 6 point color gamut charts. And I was happy because I thought the "floating gamma" got fixed.

    But I didn't have time until the next weekend to actually watch some movies. When I did, I got very confused.
    I was sad about the low contrast ratio feeling and colors looked messed up.

    I re-calibrated my display again, starting from scratch, just to make sure...
    Yet again, perfectly looking CalMan charts... but I didn't enjoy the movies on the TV!


    Well, this is where I left CalMan and started to do some measurements with ArgyllCMS.
    You can find my results here, in this post.

    Do you see those curves? Imagine them like they were many color triangles you used to see on CalMan charts but you look them in a side view. Yes, it means the gamut triangle is only accurate at a given luminance level.

    So, you can get a perfectly looking 2D CIE gamut chart at a given IRE (usually 75%) but the colors won't be accurate at any other levels (they will be over or under-saturated everywhere else).


    Now, read the entire post I linked above. I actually measured the magnitude of the black level fluctuation in a real life scenarios: I measured the luminance of the black bars during seeking around in the movie Moon

    The standard MLL and ANSI contrast measurements don't indicate any problems. But it's there! It often happens in real life scenarios!

    -------

    Sorry, it's not my intention to argue with people here. I mad about Samsung.
    But I want to make it clear that there is a problem: Colors are inaccurate and black levels are high.

    I see them, I measured them, I explained them, so... please don't say me they do not exist or they aren't that bad. They are very bad. This was my subjective opinion before I identified the problems and my measurements prove it's really bad!
  3. janos666

    janos666 Member

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    The only 50Hz content I ever watch is Doctor Who. I can live with some false-contouring for a few hours in a year.

    But I understand if it's important for you. (I forgot it because I don't really care about 50Hz and most of the European people are too blind to notice it, so I rarely read about it...)


    Of course, I wouldn't tolerate any disturbing screen uniformity problems.

    But I calibrated some Panasonic plasmas and I didn't see any unit with screen uniformity problems. (It doesn't mean I don't believe you if you say I was only "lucky".)
  4. markymiles

    markymiles Active Member

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    I wasn't really arguing with you, just discussing :).

    You clearly have more knowledge on the technical side of things than me and have backed it up with measurements to prove your point.

    We're all annoyed at Samsung for releasing this firmware :( . I had a brilliant calibrated picture prior to 1018 and now they have altered it.

    Enough of us point Samsung to this thread and who knows a miracle may happen.
  5. Grangey.

    Grangey. Active Member

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    This may be a silly question, but lets say samsung release the old firmware- does your calibration stay? or would you have to get it recalibrated?
  6. janos666

    janos666 Member

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    If they roll back the old code then old settings will be valid again.

    If they come out with a new code which is different from all old releases, then it will probably need a re-calibration.
    But it will be relatively easy to tell if some people compare their new calibrated settings with the old ones.


    I didn't want to imply you did. I just wanted to make sure you don't think I would when I react to your post so harsh.:D
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2011
  7. BrianMW

    BrianMW Active Member

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    Just done this test and got a score of zero :thumbsup:

    "You have perfect colour vision!" it said :D

    I have only done the basic calibration settings on mine via the AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration thread that Insanity202 posted earlier and it's showing a very natural looking image to my unqualified eyes.

    Interestingly after doing the basic calibration my brightness pops seem to have been minimised but being still on F/W15 I don't have the issues of the later F/W.

    I would love to get this set properly calibrated by a pro but first they would need to come to Central Scotland and two Samsung will need to fix the F/W current issues as I would hate to spend the cash and then require a F/W update for a non related issue(EDID or something)...
  8. Grangey.

    Grangey. Active Member

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    What EDID issue are you having? due to having one myself (not related to this set), i have build some form of understanding on how they could be solved...
  9. BrianMW

    BrianMW Active Member

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    None, was just an example of a reason to require a future F/W updates...

    I have 4 devices hooked via HDMI to directly to the TV and all connect spot on...
  10. azucar

    azucar Member

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    I have fortnight old 51d8000 I am delighted with it great PQ no buzz no brightness fluctuations and no dse IMO the blacks are excellent on TV AIR but less so on HDMI2 but still good with recordings and excellent on blu-ray.

    I did have judder but it just went away(no idea) after updating to 1018

    I upped from 1016 to 1018 and I haven't seen any difference in blacks but I did spend more time tweeking.

    azucar
  11. wastedyuthe

    wastedyuthe Active Member

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    Wow, what a brush off!

    If they'd bother to even read the issues, they'd know exchanging won't make a difference, there's nothing to "repair" unless the guy can roll firmware back, and people don't want refunds- they like the tv, but the way it was with the previous fw. Annoying!

    For the record, I love my 51" D6900 even with fw1019 pre-installed. I would just prefer higher luminance for 3D so it is watchable in brighter environments.
  12. gaz2810i

    gaz2810i Member

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    Has anyone else complained to Samsung about these issues? They say I am the first, which makes it tough to get them to admit a problem.

    I'm starting to wonder what is the point of all this :(
  13. Grangey.

    Grangey. Active Member

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    it sounds like someone needs to email someone abit more technical than their complaints dept, you almost need to go through to their engineering team type thing who can give you an actual update on what theyre doing about it. Otherwise the complaints dept response is quite right unfortunatley- if you dont like it, refund it or get it "repaired".

    It still might be worth emailing them back and saying this is not something a repair can fix so would like an update as to when the next firmware release would be... but it strikes me as an issue a number of you need to be chasing samsung from different angles on.
  14. markymiles

    markymiles Active Member

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    I have, no response yet. Will feedback if I get anything worth typing
  15. janos666

    janos666 Member

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    I sent a third E-mail right now. I included the URL of this forum topic and asked them to respond to my earlier letters which I sent last week (about this problem but I wasn't aware of this topic and the fact that it's not a unique but a common issue).
  16. gaz2810i

    gaz2810i Member

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    Who have you guys been e-mailing?
  17. Orso

    Orso Member

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    Santa could yield better results.
  18. janos666

    janos666 Member

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    Very good question!
    I use their site (a popup on the product support page) and I receive a notification some hours later which says "I forwarded your message to the competent associate".
    I wonder if he is my good old Spam Folder buddy or my other old friend, Trash Can. :facepalm:

    It's weird that today I had a conversation with the "senior executive of product development" from Panasonic about some minor Panasonic 2011 issues.
    I don't even have a Pana TV at home. I asked him because some Hungarian guys were interested about it but they don't speak other languages. (And OK, I was a bit curious myself since I can also see those small things when I calibrate those TVs, but really not my problem and I don't find them too disturbing anyway...)
    I don't say we worked out a fix or something, but we (me, he and xrox) eventually figured out the source of those issues and that these problems will probably go away with the new driving system in 2012.



    In the mean time, there was still no response from Samsung. :suicide:
  19. Orso

    Orso Member

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    Conspiracy mode ON
    Filter peeling caused by higher pressure due to thermal expansion.
    First fix in US=sending a tech to add spacers between panel and chassis.
    Fix in EU = a fw reducing light output hence max panel temperature ?
    Luminances all over the place because gamma tracking/color decoding remains on the previous chart/scale.
    Conspiracy mode OFF

    PS : theory#2 Panny's hack.

    PPS 4 Janos666 : I'm interested in your (+xrox+avj) finding.
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2011
  20. janos666

    janos666 Member

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    It is indeed possible that they reduced the peak brightness (and thus the average and peak temperatures) to avoid filter peeling.

    But the color precision theory doesn't add up.
    Colors were correct with any reasonable Cell Light values. And I always calibrated to 80-90 cd/m^2 peak white luminance which is still attainable (~ this is the maximum peak white with D65 chromaticity).

    Unless they were very dumb and instead of reassigning the Cell Light values (re-scale what user menu values mean for the software, so the new 20 parameter means the old 15, and so on...) they apply a very new processing step somewhere in the chain to compress the dynamic range (-> this could mess up the gamma of the color channels and thus the additive color mixture).
    But it sounds easy to fix. (However, it's only a speculation, so...)

    Some people (small minority) say the Pana 2011 PDPs flicker too strongly. Some of them even sent it back to the shop and picked a Samsung Dxxxx because they think those don't flicker at all.

    According to my eyes, they all flicker for some extent and the effect is indeed worse on the 2011 Panasonics. However, I don't think that any of them flicker too intensely. I don't find it disturbing during moving images and the flickering of the static image contents is also tolerable (you can easily adapt for it during a few minutes of watching in a dark room - artificial lighting is evil though).

    And Panasonics seems to have worse, sometimes even disturbing amount of phosphor lag. But it's weird because they have less crosstalk in 3D and it doesn't look like the usual phosphor lag.


    When I saw a Panasonic presentation about some kind of "reversed sub-field order" (which is supposed to reduce the 3D crosstalk) I came up with the idea that these effects (more intense flickering and phosphorlag-like phenomenons) are the side-effects of this driving method (which sounds like a very good and logical idea for me otherwise).

    The Pana guy confirmed they use this tricky sub-field order for 2D as well.
    xrox confirmed it can probably cause phenomenons like this. Moreover, he said Panasonic actually uses a way more trickier sub-field order than a simple reverse order. They tried to minimize crosstalk and maximize both 2D and 3D motion resolution by compressing the light output as much as they can. It can easily cause flickering and make the afterglow more visible in some cases.

    But, the Pana guy says they will use a completely new driving scheme in 2012 (probably with a different sub-field order).

    And by the way... this story gave me some ideas about their new driving scheme. If I am right, then huhh, boy... we will have significantly less dithering noise and much smoother gradation next year.
    Unless they waste the potential of their great plasma panels with their stupid obsolete video processing (sub-optimal and broken real-time color calculations). Which is very probable if you think about either a G20 or a VT30. Those were both products with relatively good plasma panels but relatively bad video processors.
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2011
  21. Orso

    Orso Member

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    Never underestimate them :)

    Btw, if, like Pana, Sammy recalculates color axes (including luma) depending on APL, reducing light output may also mean a complete overhaul of their tracking system. Such a thing would be pretty time and $ consuming for an end of life product range. It can be fixed for sure but will they fix it...
    Some ppl also reported black levels issues due to the new fw. That would mean adressing width issues and APL management as the culprit also.

    Maybe (and I hope that's the case for u guys), their latest fw is simply bugged. Soft compressed/narrowed dynamic range making a mess. The loss of 20% max Y some owners reported is pretty strange thou. Too strange to be accidental IMHO considering light output is one on their main selling point.

    Yeah I followed that discussion on HDJ. Like you I'm full of hope regarding their new driving scheme and panel. Yet, due to even more strict power regulations , they'll have to gain even more efficiency. That means even more APL related dynamic stuff like highcontrast sub driving mode (Fbr) etc. A better video processor will definately help but it won't make miracles.

    I'm curious about your driving scheme idea (bi-level drive is weird, dunno if it's an additional subfield or something else but they may use a completely new driving scheme more Kuro CLEAR like but tweaked to be used with selective cells initialisation) but this thread is prolly not the right place for such a discussion. Drop me a pm.

    Glad to see here one more guy interested in plasma tech nerdy stuff and crossing fingers for you all, sammy owners affected by this pretty big fw issue.

    Edit : nevermind, just read your reply on hdj.
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2011
  22. janos666

    janos666 Member

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    Let's make it clear first that this small comparison serves no other purpose than trying to give you and idea about the magnitude of the inaccuracies.

    This image is a "reference quality" RGB rendering (float32 precision processing and fine dithering, lossless compression) of a movie frame (retail Blu-Ray disc).
    I created this image by applying 3DLUT based color corrections on the first one. (I measured not less than exactly 1000 different color patches* to create a big RGB->CIE_Lab 3DLUT which I used to create a huge RGB->RGB 3DLUT and process the above image).

    My 3DLUT is only valid for my own TV (only with my current settings...)! So, do not assume that the second image looks correct on your TV (let alone other displays...)!
    Completely forget which one looks better for you on whatever display! Try to note how different they are (relative differences between the two pictures on the same display...).

    Ok. Now, display the "original" (uncorrected) image on your Samsung TV. (May be you have to open it in Paint -or similar- and save it as a JPEG in case your TV doesn't support this lossless PNG image format. - This TV is my PC monitor, so I have no idea about the TV's capabilities other than the HDMI input handling...)
    Try to switch between the Native, Auto and optionally (>D550) Custom (if calibrated) color spaces.
    (Auto should be very close to a calibrated Custom color space.)

    How big the difference is between these color space options? How does this compare with the difference between my two images?

    On my TV, the color space option has a very tiny effect. The original vs. 3DLUT_corrected is a huge difference.


    And I intentionally picked a scene like this. There are human faces on the image.
    On my TV, the uncorrected image is way too saturated. But it's only get clear when I take a look at the corrected image. Humans look like lobsters without the corrections.


    Well, that's how good or bad our colors are. (Huhh! Can you believe it's not worse than a usual Pana PDP? :rotfl: - Of course, those can also benefit from 3DLUT processing - in theory, but they have more aggressive ABL which distorts the precise corrections).


    Plus, this scene triggers an insanely high black level on my TV. :rolleyes:


    Sidenote for the * part:
    Let me know if you favorite professional calibrator or HDTV Reviewer ever measured more than a bunch of points (like 10p gray and 6p gamut - or may be 10p color at max...) and he/she will be my new favorite too. :D:D


    Sidenote2:
    Ah, sorry, my 3DLUT also corrects white balance and gamma, not only color saturation, huye and color luminance.
    So, ignore the gamma differences and look for the saturation differences only. That's why I said to switch between color spaces and not calibrated and uncalibrated picture modes...
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2011
  23. BrianMW

    BrianMW Active Member

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    I think there is an error in your above post janos666.

    For the images re: titles at least?

    The first image you say is the "reference quality" picture but is titled: 3dlutcorrected.png

    The second image you say is "3DLUT based color corrections" but is titled: originalcy.png

    I may have this totally wrong but is this not backwards? perhaps just a titling error? Eitherway :)
  24. janos666

    janos666 Member

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    The file names were mixed up indeed. The one with more saturated colors is the original.
    Doesn't really matter though. As I said, these images only try to demonstrate the relative differences.

    I edited my post and corrected the file names. Thank you!
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2011
  25. payasyoutext

    payasyoutext Member

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    New firmware for PS51D8000 dated 1st Dec 2011 but ver T-GAP8DEUC-1017.1 is out any takers?
  26. Grangey.

    Grangey. Active Member

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    That sounds promising... if it doesnt address some of these issues i will be shocked!
  27. BrianMW

    BrianMW Active Member

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    The description of what it fixes is small and not telling us anything about the real issues if it solves them or not... :confused:

    But curious if someone with 1018 F/W can upgrade to a lower number F/W even if it is a newer build/release :rolleyes:
  28. simonandjen

    simonandjen Member

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    Anyone with 1018 tried to use the 1017.1 firmware yet?
  29. hareid

    hareid Member

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    I have, and it didn't work...What is this ****??? Why didn't they make it a 1019, so that we with the crappy 1018.1 could upgrade too??? :mad:
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2011
  30. hareid

    hareid Member

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    1019?
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