[CAS FAN]

Originally Posted by AdsterUK

While unintentional, your post sums up entirely why I use a console.

I dont want to be careful, I dont want to research every component and I dont want to do "maintenance", I do all those things in my day job. I want to just turn on a commodity machine, put a disc in and play a game.

That was my intention to be honest. As things stand, PC gaming has come a long way from the early days in terms of stability, ease of use, operating systems and even pc building and set up, but there is still that initial set up, different system specs and maintenance situation which will not be ideal for a lot of people.

On one hand though my earlier point was that consoles are becoming less and less like that as well and whilst a standardised spec means that there is not the issue with drivers etc. there are still some maintenance issues and they are a lot more complex than they once were. Some games (I remember Oblivion being on case) require the clearing of the cache to keep it running well, there's internet set up now and there does tend to be regular updates of both the system and the games. Most new games seem to have issues and bugs when they are released, just as PC games do and a search of the internet identifies many issues folk have with console games as well.

As things stand I would still agree however that consoles do represent the off the shelf, plug and play option and their initial set up (and ongoing maintenance) is certainly easier than with the PC. That said however, for folk who don't mind the initial time investment and the updating of the odd driver etc. then on a day to day basis, the likes of Steam can be a more plug and play solution to a console with a stack of discs IMO. These things are never black and white though and consoles are not the completely hassle free systems of the past and on the same hand PC's do still require that eliment of initial setup and ongoing maintenance.

[majnu]

Originally Posted by CAS FAN

Yes, I guess the issues are that there is such a variety of pc hardware and not everyone has a "good" system. By that I mean that they may not be upto date with drivers, they may have components which are not the best together, they may have hardware problems (memory errors, bad hard drive sectors, overheating/badly seated CPU, poor case air flow and ventilation, some form of virus or malware.

So I would agree that initially PC's are not as plug and play as a console ( especially if you build one yourself) as you just plug a console in and after setting it up (online etc.) you are playing. What they can be is very plug and play if you take care building and maintaining a system or if you buy an off the shelf pc and take specific precautions. I guess if you look at the hardware issues that consoles have had (where there is only really one spec) then it goes without saying that PC's (where there are an almost infinite amount of specs) will have some issues.

I spent some time researching what components to buy and took my time building my rig, ensuring that it had good airflow etc. since then I have gamed pretty much solely on Steam or Origin on it and apart from the usual maintenance (defrag, disc cleanup etc.) and updating graphics drivers, there's not really anything I've had to do to it. The games auto patch via steam/origin and the OS auto updates. My point was that if the system is well set up and maintained then it can be easier to use on a day to day basis than a console. I guess something like a steam box could eradicate pretty much all of these issues by having a standardised spec and build.

Solved the problem with Metro I ended up buying Windows 7. Anyway this discussion should be about DD. If steam had support whereby you could enter Live chat or talk to someone on the phone it would be excellent. Having to wait days to solve a problem with a downloaded game isn't good.

[CAS FAN]

Originally Posted by majnu

Solved the problem with Metro I ended up buying Windows 7. Anyway this discussion should be about DD. If steam had support whereby you could enter Live chat or talk to someone on the phone it would be excellent. Having to wait days to solve a problem with a downloaded game isn't good.

Nice one. I guess that's one of the main issues with PCs, not everyone is even on the same OS. There will be folk on Vista and even XP still as well as windows 7 and that creates it's own raft of issues.

You are right though and as I mentioned a while ago, the only reason I mentioned Steam was because it's a successful DD service. The platform it's running on is not the issue here so this shouldn't be another boring console v pc debate as let's be honest, surely we've all had enough of those. I think good support is a must with these services, but to be honest in the fairly rare situations where I've had an issue with a Steam game (was generally down to me not having the latest video driver or a bug in the game which needed patching), I've found that the Steam forums usually hold the answer as you can bet that if you have a problem then either everyone or a lot of other people have also had the same issue.

[Lurking Lawyer]

This discussion exactly mirrors my own experience.

After 7-8 years of PC gaming (having made the transition from Speccy > Atari ST > Amiga), and finding myself with an obsolescent machine that would require substantial upgrading to play the latest release I was keen to have, Oblivion, I decided that on balance I would just buy an Xbox 360 instead and play it on that.

Since then, I've occasionally missed games that didn't get a console release but, by and large, I don't miss wrestling with config.sys and autoexec.bat files, or more latterly just having hardware compatibility and driver problems. I bought a new laptop recently and the first thing I did was re-install my old Steam account and buy FM2012, but PC gaming is still very much the exception rather than the rule for me. Ironically enough, even that posed a problem for me as FM12 would run but then immediately close on starting up. I had to do a search to find out that it was (a) a known issue and (b) Steam still hadn't resolved it a month after it was first reported.

Yes, it's more flexible. Yes, it's far more readily upgradeable. Yes, games are cheaper. But TBH I still don't miss it. I don't get a lot of gaming time any more so what I do is at a premium - I want to turn on and play, and a console is much better at that than a PC, title updates notwithstanding. (The only issue I have had about hardware problems in 5 years of ownership is the very one CAS FAN mentions - having to manually clear the cache in Oblivion). I really can't be arsed with having to worry about periodically check for driver updates, or worry about system architecture and air flow, or whether part A works best with part B or part C.

I personaly think it's far too premature to be calling the death of consoles, or even of optical media IMO. The fact that MS is selling more 360s than ever over the past few months suggests that there is plenty of life left in the old dog yet. It's certainly no longer cutting edge (if it ever was?) and without a doubt falls way short of a current specialised gaming PC, but I can't say that it has made much of an impact on my enjoyment of the games I've been playing recently.

It's horse for courses, of course. One man's meat, and all that.....

[CAS FAN]

To be honest Lurking Lawyer, most of that post is still referring to whether you prefer gaming on the PC as opposed to a console. The problems you experienced are PC problems as opposed to DD problems and you only touch on the topic with a few words at the end of your post.

I'm sure that we will still have the choice of an easier plug and play console type solution and a more bespoke and customisable PC type solution, but whilst we may only take a big step towards it with the next console generation, i'm pretty positive that consoles will head down a DD only route within the next 10 years.

[noisecrime]

Originally Posted by CAS FAN

i'm pretty positive that consoles will head down a DD only route within the next 10 years.

Which regardless of your standing on the issue, will be the end of an era ;(
Just like vinyl, of which I still have almost 2,000 and which I still miss the days of gatefold albums, CD was never really the same and obviously digital doesn't come close.

Same with PC boxes, although at one stage their size got ridiculous, I still have a large number of various sized boxes of old PC (even Spectrum48k) games, with cool stuff inside, like manuals, posters, note books, even old DRM like lenslok etc. The DVD format/box spoilt that, I still have a vivid memory of catching the bus into town to buy Half-Life 2 from HMV, only to open the dvd case whilst waiting for the return bus to find a single sheet of paper inside and no manual or anything ;(

So I guess the same will happen with console games, which granted most non-special edition releases never came with much anyway, but there were a few gems of production, such as Ico/SotC even BioShock2.


Once digital takes over completely I don't see a means or reason to get this type of physical content, at least not with the major publishers (indie publishers may excel at this though since it can heavily help sales).

A sad day indeed ;(

[Lurking Lawyer]

Originally Posted by CAS FAN

To be honest Lurking Lawyer, most of that post is still referring to whether you prefer gaming on the PC as opposed to a console.

Very true - although, in fairness, I was just replying to the turn that the thread had taken with the last few posts from you and others.

In terms of digital downloads, I don't think it's viable yet until the broadband network can offer more widespread faster access. Because of where I live, about as far as it is possible to be from the exchange and at the arse-end of the estate, I struggle to get more than 2mbps - I suspect that's a bit below the national average, but probably not much. That makes downloading a 10-15 Gb game a huge PITA.

BT Infinity is now available in my area (which estimates I'd get 18-20 mbps), which would make digital downloading far more viable, but I begrudge paying £20/month extra for it. In a year or two, when FTTC (or even FTTP) is cheaper and akin to normal broadband pricing now, it might work. Until then, there are just too many households on low speed and/or capped usage lines to make a lack of optical media feasible.

IMO anyway. MS may think differently, even if I do think they'd be wrong!

[Sniper Ash6]

Originally Posted by Lurking Lawyer

Very true - although, in fairness, I was just replying to the turn that the thread had taken with the last few posts from you and others.

In terms of digital downloads, I don't think it's viable yet until the broadband network can offer more widespread faster access. Because of where I live, about as far as it is possible to be from the exchange and at the arse-end of the estate, I struggle to get more than 2mbps - I suspect that's a bit below the national average, but probably not much. That makes downloading a 10-15 Gb game a huge PITA.

BT Infinity is now available in my area (which estimates I'd get 18-20 mbps), which would make digital downloading far more viable, but I begrudge paying £20/month extra for it. In a year or two, when FTTC (or even FTTP) is cheaper and akin to normal broadband pricing now, it might work. Until then, there are just too many households on low speed and/or capped usage lines to make a lack of optical media feasible.

IMO anyway. MS may think differently, even if I do think they'd be wrong!

Ofcom found the UK average in Nov 2011 to be 7.6Mbps which was a 22% increase compared to the year before.
http://media.ofcom.org.uk/2012/02/02...adband-speeds/
http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/mar...-speeds-nov-11

[DJSigma]

I've got 60 Mbps broadband, but for me that's not the issue.

Being limited to where you can buy something which means less competition, combined with losing the right to sell, trade in, lend out and rent, combined with MS basically being able to terminate your licenses to the content you've purchased at their discretion is why I don't support digital downloads as the only means of purchasing games. I can see why some of the "I only buy games for 10p in Steam sales!" crowd are loving it, but that's not what will happen with consoles and if Steam was the ONLY way to get PC games, that's not how it would be with that service either.

[Sniper Ash6]

Originally Posted by DJSigma

I've got 60 Mbps broadband, but for me that's not the issue.

Being limited to where you can buy something which means less competition, combined with losing the right to sell, trade in, lend out and rent, combined with MS basically being able to terminate your licenses to the content you've purchased at their discretion is why I don't support digital downloads as the only means of purchasing games. I can see why some of the "I only buy games for 10p in Steam sales!" crowd are loving it, but that's not what will happen with consoles and if Steam was the ONLY way to get PC games, that's not how it would be with that service either.

Seeing as this is all purely speculation, you can't say you would be limited to just one place to purchase your games or that there won't be sales and other things that Valve do with Steam.

[DJSigma]

Originally Posted by Sniper Ash6

Seeing as this is all purely speculation, you can't say you would be limited to just one place to purchase your games or that there won't be sales and other things that Valve do with Steam.

Consoles are closed platforms. The PC is not.

I don't particularly want a future where I have to sit around for months with my fingers crossed hoping that game X is reduced in a sale anyway. I want to be able to shop around for good prices on new releases - if you do that on the PC, you'll hardly ever buy from Steam cos it's almost always cheaper to buy the game on physical media.

Companies want a digital download only future cos they have control of distribution, prices, and they can eradicate some of your rights. I'm not sure why people are applauding this. Having it as an option is fine, but I bet even your PC has an optical drive so you can buy games on physical media if you want to. An Xbox without an optical drive locks you into a closed platform and leaves it solely up to Microsoft where games are sold, at what prices, and what restrictions there are on licensing.

The PC gamer's argument boils down to little more than "I like Steam sales, so digital distribution is good", but with a PC I can download games from various services, I can use any music/video download or streaming service I choose and I still have an optical drive there if I want to play physical media. You're not going to get that with a console that has no optical drive in it.

[CAS FAN]

Originally Posted by noisecrime

Which regardless of your standing on the issue, will be the end of an era ;(
Just like vinyl, of which I still have almost 2,000 and which I still miss the days of gatefold albums, CD was never really the same and obviously digital doesn't come close.

Same with PC boxes, although at one stage their size got ridiculous, I still have a large number of various sized boxes of old PC (even Spectrum48k) games, with cool stuff inside, like manuals, posters, note books, even old DRM like lenslok etc. The DVD format/box spoilt that, I still have a vivid memory of catching the bus into town to buy Half-Life 2 from HMV, only to open the dvd case whilst waiting for the return bus to find a single sheet of paper inside and no manual or anything ;(

So I guess the same will happen with console games, which granted most non-special edition releases never came with much anyway, but there were a few gems of production, such as Ico/SotC even BioShock2.

Once digital takes over completely I don't see a means or reason to get this type of physical content, at least not with the major publishers (indie publishers may excel at this though since it can heavily help sales).

A sad day indeed ;(

In some respects I agree and I am not totally without nostalgia. I loved getting my Jamma arcade cab and I loved the days where the arcades were a special almost magical place. These days a high end pc blows away coin ops on a technical level, but back when we were all paying outrun at what must have been 2 frames per second (if you were lucky) on our Speccy's owning an arcade machine was a dream! That said, after getting my cab in my 20's the nostalgia wore off fairly quick and because the games I was playing at home were better quality, it just wasn't as special. Now before someone jumps down my throat, I know that's a completely different scenario to physical games vs DD, but it was just to illustrate a period of nostalgia. Others were collecting vinyl picture discs and mixing on the 1210's with my 400+ house record collection.

My point is that this is all nostalgia and IMO not necessarily better. With an mp3 album you may not get a fold out card case, but you can get files containing the music videos, documentaries etc. you can get a PDF art book or history of the band book etc. Why is creative media worse, just because you don't have physical items which have to be stored? With tablets like the ipad etc. now they can deliver far better content with an album purchase than you could ever get tucked into a sleeve of a record. Why the fascination with having plastic machine pressed discs in sleeves with printed designs on the cover? The same think applies to games and films as well.

This doesn't mean that collectors merchandise etc. will have to stop and there could even be money off offers or free merchandise for people who buy certain versions of the game. You can already choose to buy enhanced versions of games on Steam which give access to loads more content than the basic game. How developers use this is just down to their imagination really as you could do link ins with the films, comic books etc. where you get the film or so many issues of the comic (say volume 1 or something) with the extended purchase. Developers could still post out models etc. of the characters to those who buy the LE versions etc. too. DD does to have to be an end to this market.

The thing folk are unhappy with is that it's going to make 'casual' piracy very hard as developers can render the pirated versions useless as soon as they appear by patching genuine versions. Without a physical media it also means that folk will have to mod their boxes to be able to download from unofficial sites and it would be easy to render the system incapable of logging in if tampered with. There will always be ways for the pirates to get around things but it will change the balance or whether it's actually worth it with all the hassle, losing access to the service etc. so many folk will just not bother. At the end of the day, we have always just been buying a licence for a game etc. but because of the physical nature of the games, developers have not really been able to stop folk loaning out, copying, selling the games etc. so it's always been a grey area. That will stop and folk will now have to buy what ever entertainment they want to play, watch etc.

[Sniper Ash6]

Originally Posted by DJSigma

Consoles are closed platforms. The PC is not.

I don't particularly want a future where I have to sit around for months with my fingers crossed hoping that game X is reduced in a sale anyway. I want to be able to shop around for good prices on new releases - if you do that on the PC, you'll hardly ever buy from Steam cos it's almost always cheaper to buy the game on physical media.

Companies want a digital download only future cos they have control of distribution, prices, and they can eradicate some of your rights. I'm not sure why people are applauding this. Having it as an option is fine, but I bet even your PC has an optical drive so you can buy games on physical media if you want to. An Xbox without an optical drive locks you into a closed platform and leaves it solely up to Microsoft where games are sold, at what prices, and what restrictions there are on licensing.

The PC gamer's argument boils down to little more than "I like Steam sales, so digital distribution is good", but with a PC I can download games from various services, I can use any music/video download or streaming service I choose and I still have an optical drive there if I want to play physical media. You're not going to get that with a console that has no optical drive in it.

If they really wanted to then Microsoft could only make it so that you bought Live subs and Points from them. You could be locked into that but they've made the decision not to make it so and have gone to the effort of retail packaging and distribution etc.

As to the "sitting around for months with your fingers crossed hoping for a game to be in a sale", if that's how you imagine PC gaming then maybe it isn't for you.

[DJSigma]

Originally Posted by Sniper Ash6

If they really wanted to then Microsoft could only make it so that you bought Live subs and Points from them. You could be locked into that but they've made the decision not to make it so and have gone to the effort of retail packaging and distribution etc.

Yes, they could do that with the next console if they wanted to. Is that supposed to be some kind of argument in favour of this sort of future? Cos if you're trying to say "well, they haven't locked you in now" then it's a moot point, because you can buy games on disc now and we're talking about a future console that may not have an optical drive.

Originally Posted by Sniper Ash6

As to the "sitting around for months with your fingers crossed hoping for a game to be in a sale", if that's how you imagine PC gaming then maybe it isn't for you.

It's just a fact that outside of Steam sales, the prices are almost always poor. If you wanted the cheapest prices on new games, you'd still be buying them on physical media. I know this because I play games on the PC and have done for years (longer than you have, I'm sure), but I do not try and gloss over all of the flaws with PC gaming and digital distribution like others here are doing.

Look at your Steam screenshot from the previous page. We've already compared the pricing for LA Noire, but here's the pricing for the other game shown on your list: -

Civ IV: -

Steam = £9.99 + £5.99 for the Beyond The Swords pack + £2.99 for the Warlords pack
Amazon = £7.22 for the game and all of the DLC

But, yeah Steam rules, right?

[CAS FAN]

Originally Posted by DJSigma

Consoles are closed platforms. The PC is not.

I don't particularly want a future where I have to sit around for months with my fingers crossed hoping that game X is reduced in a sale anyway. I want to be able to shop around for good prices on new releases - if you do that on the PC, you'll hardly ever buy from Steam cos it's almost always cheaper to buy the game on physical media.

Companies want a digital download only future cos they have control of distribution, prices, and they can eradicate some of your rights. I'm not sure why people are applauding this. Having it as an option is fine, but I bet even your PC has an optical drive so you can buy games on physical media if you want to. An Xbox without an optical drive locks you into a closed platform and leaves it solely up to Microsoft where games are sold, at what prices, and what restrictions there are on licensing.

The PC gamer's argument boils down to little more than "I like Steam sales, so digital distribution is good", but with a PC I can download games from various services, I can use any music/video download or streaming service I choose and I still have an optical drive there if I want to play physical media. You're not going to get that with a console that has no optical drive in it.

Doesn't make a difference. Why do folk think that console manufacturers will also be the sole distributors of games on their systems. The likes of Sony and MS don't even make most of the games. I see a vibrant and competitive DD market place with the likes of Amazon, HMV etc. all involved.

[DJSigma]

Originally Posted by CAS FAN

I see a vibrant and competitive DD market place with the likes of Amazon, HMV etc. all involved.

How do the prices of Amazon and HMV's digital distribution services for PC compare with Steam?

[CAS FAN]

Originally Posted by DJSigma

How do the prices of Amazon and HMV's digital distribution services for PC compare with Steam?

They are not currently involved in the DD games market as at the moment there's only really the pc which has gone down that route, which is too niche a market for those retailers I'd guess. They have got involved in digital music and book distribution and I can see them going down the movie route to compete with the likes of Apple, Netflix, Love Film (well Love Film are actually an Amazon firm anyway so I guess they are already there) etc. and the game route once the consoles get involved.

MS and Sony will be like Apple and Sony etc. are in the music market now IMO in that they produce products to play the games and other services. The device people buy will come down more to a design decision and I can even see an end to the actual game formats so that whether you go down the PIlaystation, Xbox or other brand, the same games will work on those consoles. There really isn't much of a reason why gaming needs to be sold and consumed any different to music, movies etc. infact it would just seem odd to think that we needed to buy a Sony and an Apple mp3 player to play say the full top 10 music chart (not that I'd want to personally as it's full of tripe, but it illustrates the point). It's only because we've grown up with gaming being that way that it doesn't seem completely weird to own say 4 + devices to have access to the full gaming market.

[DJSigma]

MS and Sony will be like Apple, but I highly doubt it'll happen in the way that you think. It'll be more like iPhones and the apps for that - you're locked into the walled garden. There is no incentive for a hardware manufacturer to sell a powerful console at a loss, then allow other companies to do what they like regarding making and selling games on that hardware.

The PC is an open platform. I can make an indie game and do what I like with it without paying MS a penny. I can't do the same with the 360 though, because it's their hardware. The only means to sell games for the 360 is Xbox Live, which is fully locked down and in their control - just as they want it to be - or on physical media where I still can't just release any game I like for the system as I need their permission and I need to pay them a platform royalty per sale. That's how they make a huge chunk of their money and they're not giving that up any time soon.

Unless every console manufacturer agreed to some kind of virtual "cease fire" so they all agree that every game they release will be available on each other's systems, then what you're describing is just a pipe dream. They use platform exclusive games, services and features to differentiate their products from the competition, but you think they'll give that up to make a generic "jack of all trades" box that plays the exact same games as the consoles made by companies X, Y and Z? Not a chance!

[CAS FAN]

Originally Posted by DJSigma

MS and Sony will be like Apple, but I highly doubt it'll happen in the way that you think. It'll be more like iPhones and the apps for that - you're locked into the walled garden. There is no incentive for a hardware manufacturer to sell a powerful console at a loss, then allow other companies to do what they like regarding making and selling games on that hardware.

The PC is an open platform. I can make an indie game and do what I like with it without paying MS a penny. I can't do the same with the 360 though, because it's their hardware. The only means to sell games for the 360 is Xbox Live, which is fully locked down and in their control - just as they want it to be - or on physical media where I still can't just release any game I like for the system as I need their permission and I need to pay them a platform royalty per sale. That's how they make a huge chunk of their money and they're not giving that up any time soon.

Unless every console manufacturer agreed to some kind of virtual "cease fire" so they all agree that every game they release will be available on each other's systems, then what you're describing is just a pipe dream. They use platform exclusive games, services and features to differentiate their products from the competition, but you think they'll give that up to make a generic "jack of all trades" box that plays the exact same games as the consoles made by companies X, Y and Z? Not a chance!

Don't forget that it's the games development companies who hold the power in this industry though. The days of console manufacturers sticking out their own machines will soon come to an end and I'm surprised that both consumers and games development companies have put up with it for so long. How insane is it that I may own say FIFA 12 and my mate also owns it, but we can't play each other as he say chooses a Microsoft gaming box and I choose a Sony branded one. None of it makes sense and you just get the feeling that gaming as an industry is growing up into a proper media alongside music, movies etc.

But hey, none of us know the answer here so it's all just our own ideas. I would guess that you're probably about as long in the tooth as myself and that we've both lived through gaming from the start so we've each got a fair bit of experience to go on. That said, there's no doubt that we aren't both factoring in how we would like to see things progress. I would like the ideal of the format-less, DD world where as you would probably like to see the status quo maintained if you're honest. I do genuinely feel that we are heading down the route I mentioned, but not necessarily during the next generation of consoles. These things will take a while to implement but I do feel that we are only the brink of some of the biggest changes that the gaming industry has ever seen.

[DJSigma]

Originally Posted by CAS FAN

Don't forget that it's the games development companies who hold the power in this industry though.

Without the consoles, they would have nothing to develop for. Well, the PC, but the bulk of their cash comes from consoles in almost all cases, as you can see when you look at their financial reports.

Not being able to play FIFA on the 360 against someone on the PS3 isn't of a huge concern to EA considering how much the game sells.

It's not unexpected for someone like you to paint a picture of a future that is basically "PC gaming via Steam", but I have no idea why you believe what you believe cos there is absolutely zero sign of the console market making a move in that direction. The mobile gaming market is huge now too and that's just the same - dedicated hardware from manufacturers as well as iOS, Android, WP7 and so on as the platforms that run the games. Not a single shift in the direction of some unified platform.

I would love to see one console that can play Gears, Uncharted, Mario and Civilisation, but I would love to win the Euro Millions too and I think that's about as likely to happen. What I want and what I think will happen aren't necessarily connected. As for digital downloads, I'm all for giving consumers more choice, not less. I'm fine with every game being made available via digital download as long as that's not the only way to get them, in much the same way that I wouldn't want CDs to disappear, forcing me to download lower quality MP3s and my entire music collection to have a net worth of £0. I've already compared prices to show that Steam is not cheaper than sites like Amazon, so all you're left with is the convenience of downloading, but ordering a game off the web and having it delivered to my door is convenient too - especially if I'm saying £10 or so every time I buy a new game.

[Pistachio]

Originally Posted by CAS FAN

How insane is it that I may own say FIFA 12 and my mate also owns it, but we can't play each other as he say chooses a Microsoft gaming box and I choose a Sony branded one. None of it makes sense and you just get the feeling that gaming as an industry is growing up into a proper media alongside music, movies etc.

I am sure we can all agree on this point. Whoever figures out how to solve this will earn some serious cash. I guess the pace of change is not that fast - but realtically a console battle of one format or another has been going on for years.

[noisecrime]

Originally Posted by Pistachio

I am sure we can all agree on this point. Whoever figures out how to solve this will earn some serious cash. I guess the pace of change is not that fast - but realtically a console battle of one format or another has been going on for years.

But thats the point, its not about someone figuring out the problem, its that the companies don't want to, they are locked into this format battle as it still works for them. In fact things are just going to get worse as consoles continue to diversify away from games and into other media, social networks and the like, because now these companies aren't fighting over just a games machine, but a full on multi-media device in your living room. Brands like that are going to be gold dust in the future. You can see how important it is by the fact that TV companies are desperate to get in on the act .. and mostly failing horribly.

[jason g]

if the next console becomes download only won't this be a problem for fraud again? after all people who had problems with xbox live subscriptions they bought via the xbox like xbox.com for example where subscriptions were taken without being informed about it?

plus what about the issue with i think FIFA 12 where those who got there accounts hacked, wouldn't it be even worse then? instead of buying points which happened before hackers would be just buying loads of games.


i just don't see this download only console happening.

[CAS FAN]

Originally Posted by DJSigma

Without the consoles, they would have nothing to develop for. Well, the PC, but the bulk of their cash comes from consoles in almost all cases, as you can see when you look at their financial reports.

Not being able to play FIFA on the 360 against someone on the PS3 isn't of a huge concern to EA considering how much the game sells.

It's not unexpected for someone like you to paint a picture of a future that is basically "PC gaming via Steam", but I have no idea why you believe what you believe cos there is absolutely zero sign of the console market making a move in that direction. The mobile gaming market is huge now too and that's just the same - dedicated hardware from manufacturers as well as iOS, Android, WP7 and so on as the platforms that run the games. Not a single shift in the direction of some unified platform.

I would love to see one console that can play Gears, Uncharted, Mario and Civilisation, but I would love to win the Euro Millions too and I think that's about as likely to happen. What I want and what I think will happen aren't necessarily connected. As for digital downloads, I'm all for giving consumers more choice, not less. I'm fine with every game being made available via digital download as long as that's not the only way to get them, in much the same way that I wouldn't want CDs to disappear, forcing me to download lower quality MP3s and my entire music collection to have a net worth of £0. I've already compared prices to show that Steam is not cheaper than sites like Amazon, so all you're left with is the convenience of downloading, but ordering a game off the web and having it delivered to my door is convenient too - especially if I'm saying £10 or so every time I buy a new game.

Yes but with the pace of change that we have experienced in interactive media over just the last 5 years you must be able to see that the status quo is not just cast in stone for ever and a day. I know that my views are perhaps a little extreme at times, but on the other hand I do feel that others are too far the other way in just assuming that what we have had will simply continue.

Sure games developers need devices to play their games, but believe me, the console manufacturers would not bite of their nose to spite their face by pulling out of what should still be a very lucrative market. If they did then it seems prime for companies like Apple, Samsung, Valve etc. to get involved in. One one hand, perhaps Microsoft would even prefer not to have the hassle of making consoles (given the RRoD issues of the past) and may prefer to look at getting their Live OS into consumer devices instead (tv's, all in one systems, set top boxes etc.) as they did with windows in PC's. They clearly excel at the subscription based service they offer as that is the best thing about their proposition and betters the competition from Sony etc. I see live being a very strong cloud based gaming service offering the best online gaming and gaming delivery service.

Apple also seem to excel at providing a successful service delivering games, music, tv, movies, books, magazines etc. and I would say that their experience in this field puts them in better standing than the likes of maybe Sony and Nintendo when it comes to the next step in media delivery, including gaming. They have already got a user base for their existing products which dwarfs MS and Sonys user base so who knows?

[noisecrime]

Originally Posted by jason g

i just don't see this download only console happening.

I may have changed my mind as I do see it happening and on many levels could welcome it, but if done badly I could just as easily see myself stop playing many games and just download films or TV or switch to PC.

Its inevitable that physical media is going to disappear, its very sad, but its just the way we are moving. On the one hand I welcome not having to have tons of shelf space for all my vinyl, cd, dvd, games, blu-ray etc, on the other I'm going to miss all my shelf space full of tactile physical products

I kinda think its already happened. I can't tell you the number of times I've watch a film because it happened to be broadcast on TV, despite owning the dvd (and/or blu-ray) just a few feet away from my TV, which I've not bothered to watch in years.

I don't think its purely about being lazy, it would be very sad if true, there must be something else going on and I don't think i'm alone. I'm also loving LoveFilm on xbox, sure it doesn't have the latest movies and for some reason doesn't include movies that are still pay to view, but i've found enough content on their to justify the extra £1 p.m. on top of my normal subscription.

To be honest there are very few films I care enough about to want to own any more, that might be an age thing. Most films I remember too well to want to watch again, even more are just plain junk. There are probably no more than a couple of films a year that I would want to own, but i'm no longer sure its such a big deal if i can't own them in the future.

In fact from various research i've under-taken into the new business of digital content i'm not so sure owning the film is important any more. Its not like in the 70's when you could only watch a film when it was broadcast on terrestrial, or in the 80's when it was released on expensive video. As a kid/teenager there were loads of films I wanted to watch again and again but was denied due to lack of technology. Now I can feasibly get anything I want, when I want it (well if the film/media companies got their act together I could). I think that suddenly changes things.

its a two-way street though, and I don't think the media companies have quite realised that yet. If they suddenly get a monopoly on digital content, they can't inflate prices like blu-ray often is. If anything they are going to have to lower prices due to lack of ownership and maybe sell their content with physical content to give it added value. But that is a whole other discussion.

At the same time its a little scary, aren't we just a solar flare away from losing all this data? What happens to my rights to view something? With no control whats to stop poeple from messing with the content (George Lucas anyone ) etc.


So assuming they get the price point right (which MS have not yet proven they can) to get around the lack of ownership/second hand sale issues and assuming I get an unlimited download broadband account, plus they make games that I want to play, I could see myself going for this in the future.

Of course as I stated at the start, just because it might suit me, doesn't mean it will suit everyone and i'm still of the opinion that its a generation too early to do this. In other words they can't simply ditch discs yet as it will hurt too many people. However based on some of the discussion here I don't think MS or Sony are in a position to wait a generation later either, doing so will simply miss the boat.

Perhaps MS have been very clever in getting this type of discussion going, to work out the kinks and give gamers time to adjust.

Originally Posted by CAS FAN

Apple also seem to excel at providing a successful service delivering games, music, tv, movies, books, magazines etc. and I would say that their experience in this field puts them in better standing than the likes of maybe Sony and Nintendo when it comes to the next step in media delivery, including gaming. They have already got a user base for their existing products which dwarfs MS and Sonys user base so who knows?

Yeah, but I still remember the Pippin

[CAS FAN]

Originally Posted by noisecrime

I may have changed my mind as I do see it happening and on many levels could welcome it, but if done badly I could just as easily see myself stop playing many games and just download films or TV or switch to PC.

Its inevitable that physical media is going to disappear, its very sad, but its just the way we are moving. On the one hand I welcome not having to have tons of shelf space for all my vinyl, cd, dvd, games, blu-ray etc, on the other I'm going to miss all my shelf space full of tactile physical products

I kinda think its already happened. I can't tell you the number of times I've watch a film because it happened to be broadcast on TV, despite owning the dvd (and/or blu-ray) just a few feet away from my TV, which I've not bothered to watch in years.

I don't think its purely about being lazy, it would be very sad if true, there must be something else going on and I don't think i'm alone. I'm also loving LoveFilm on xbox, sure it doesn't have the latest movies and for some reason doesn't include movies that are still pay to view, but i've found enough content on their to justify the extra £1 p.m. on top of my normal subscription.

So assuming they get the price point right (which MS have not yet proven they can) to get around the lack of ownership/second hand sale issues and assuming I get an unlimited download broadband account, plus they make games that I want to play, I could see myself going for this in the future.

Of course as I stated at the start, just because it might suit me, doesn't mean it will suit everyone and i'm still of the opinion that its a generation too early to do this. However based on some of the discussion here I don't think MS or Sony are in a position to wait a generation later either, doing so will simply miss the boat.

Indeed, I must admit that if I look around now the amount of physical media I have has vastly reduced and I guess that has brought me on to one of the issues with physical media and changing technology. There are films which I have bought 5+ times now (VHS, DVD, HDDVD, BLU RAY, DOWNLOAD and often several times per format due to box sets etc.) so I end up with various copies of the same film lying about, all of which cost me money and can't really be sold for anything but a pittance. Then in the old days of games you used to buy another box containing an expansion for your game. Thankfully these expansions are now nearly always dlc anyway so we have already cut out that raft of extra boxes.

I used to have shelves, DVD racks, cd racks etc. all full of media and thankfully they have all now gone which has given me more space and less clutter in my living area.

One of this big issues that DJ Sigma brings up in this debate is the lack of ownership etc. but again that is looking down a pretty narrow viewpoint about how dd may be priced. A lot of dd seems to be going down a subscription route meaning that you pay a set amount per month and have access to either any games you want or perhaps 2 or 3 at any one time. Now keen gamers could pay for the more expensive route (say fully unlimited access to the entire gaming catalogue) for £20 per month and maybe play 5-10 games per month, where as more casual gamers may choose an option which restricts access to say 2 games per month for £7.50 per month. Those are just examples to illustrate the concept bases on existing subscription based services so it's the concept as opposed to the figures which are important there. Now if someone bought say £10 games per month, they would probably spend around £100 even if they traded them in and obviously if they were interested in collecting games instead then that figure would be much higher. The point is that DD need not be more expensive (and could be less expensive for gamers) even if you factor in that with a physical product you can sell or trade it in. With a subscription based service you would essentially have access to every game as long as you subscribe and that is a games catalogue that hardly anyone could ever amass with physical media.

[CAS FAN]

Originally Posted by noisecrime

Yeah, but I still remember the Pippin

Haha, true but Apple are in a very different place now than they were back in the mid 90's.

[DJSigma]

If Apple make a games console, the chance of it being this "open platform" thing that you're dreaming about is 0. You seem to be letting your own biases cloud your vision. There is no movement in the direction that you're talking about.

Originally Posted by CAS FAN

A lot of dd seems to be going down a subscription route meaning that you pay a set amount per month and have access to either any games you want or perhaps 2 or 3 at any one time.

When you say "a lot" can you give me some examples? Where can I pay a set fee per month and have access to any games I want (digitally I mean - I know I can do this with physical media)? In fact, just 1 example will do........

[CAS FAN]

Originally Posted by DJSigma

If Apple make a games console, the chance of it being this "open platform" thing that you're dreaming about is 0. You seem to be letting your own biases cloud your vision. There is no movement in the direction that you're talking about.

When you say "a lot" can you give me some examples? Where can I pay a set fee per month and have access to any games I want (digitally I mean - I know I can do this with physical media)? In fact, just 1 example will do........

What are you on about with this open platform thing? So can I not use Netflix and also Love Film on my iPad? I'm not sure what you are really referring to. Games will be games released by development companies and devices will play those games. You seem to be stuck in the past and the present and fail to see future possibilities.

Again with your 2nd comment you are simply not responding to what I have said. I was referring to DD of other media as the whole point of this discussion is about future developments and where gaming may go. Examples are Love Film, Sky, Netflix, Spotify to name 4 companies which charge a monthly subscription to access which ever films or music you want to. Regarding the games industry, so far OnLive have their service where you can buy specific games or buy their playback bundle for a sub of £6.99 which gives access to 150+ games. It is very early days however and my comments relate to where the industry may start to go with the next generation and over the next 10 years or so.

[DJSigma]

Originally Posted by CAS FAN

Games will be games released by development companies and devices will play those games. You seem to be stuck in the past and the present and fail to see future possibilities.

You completely fail to understand how business works. Games are locked to particular platforms. There is no sign of that changing and no reason why the current manufacturers would even want that.

Originally Posted by CAS FAN

Again with your 2nd comment you are simply not responding to what I have said.

So, erm...... no examples then?