[Timbo21]

We may all feel that we have a better deal than Sky customers, but consider the following, since much of Telwest's HD content is turning out to be pay-per-view.

If I want to watch an episode of Desperate Housewives in HD, & an episode of Lost in HD per week + one HD film a week it would cost me an extra £24 per month. If I then wanted to watch 2 HD films per week + 1 X Lost & DH it would cost £40 per month. And on Sky you can no doubt watch more HD content than what I've just listed for the £10 sub.

Admittedly there isn't enough HD content to give us 2 HD films per month, let alone 2 per week. But the following is food for thought if TW main HD content is going to be pay-per-view.

TW TV Drive 12 X £10 = £120
TW possible HD pay per view as above 12 X £40 = £480
Total TW HD per year as above =£600

Sky HD = £300
Sky HD subscription = 12 X £10 = £120
Total Sky HD for first year =£420
Total Sky HD for 2nd year =£264

Additionally after the first year of HD on Sky you can replace the £300 for the Sky HD box with say £12 per month service insurance, which would cost £144 for 12 months.

It's only fair to pay £10 a month for the TV Drive since we are not paying £300. But lots of pay-per-view stuff makes things a lot more expensive.

I don't think anybody minds pay-per-view, but if this is one of the only ways we can view HD films & series outside of BBC & ITV then it's going to hit our wallets.

[Karma]

It's a case of wait and see.

At present there isn't much between the two as far as I'm concerned. I don't pay for film or sport. This means that I miss out on Sky One HD and Artsworld, while Sky do not get ITV.

You have to decide which of the channels is more important.

Your comparison is not really fair (not a criticism!) as you aren't comparing apples with apples.

You do not have to watch Lost or desparate Housewives on PPV. But while it is a subscription service (also available on your PC as well as PPV) this is something that Channel Four are trialing.

Ultimately Sky One will come to the Telewest platform, and bandwidth allowing, CH4 PPV or VOD whichever you prefer will come to Sky, where they will have to pay for each episode too.

It will be interesting to see what the quality of Sky One will be when it does come to Telewest. Sky viewers are already complaining about the quality. I read on these boards a very good unbiased technical assesment of why this should be.

Something to do with the picture from USA originated programmes being in MPEG2 which then has to be decoded and up converted to MPEG4 for Sky.

Will Telewest therefore have to reconvert it back to MPEG2? There may be a further quality issue there. Or will it be sent to TW in MPEG2 with no conversion, in which case there may be the spectre of Sky One looking better on a competitor platform!

Or something.

K

[meltonboy]

Well we started this discussion on another thread, but i maintain that the TV Drive is ok value assuming that the HD content grows.

You can't really add in PPV episodes into your cost comparison as they aren't available on sky anyway.

In the end it pretty much comes down to whether you are prepared to buy a sky box for 300 quid for more HD content. That's less of a scientific calculation and more of how much you personally value the difference in content.

For example, if you are into Premiership Footy and 24, then you may personally feel that 300 quid for the box is good value as they aren't in HD on TVD. If you wouldn't watch the extra Sky HD content, then for you it wouldn't be worth the 300 quid box.

Thuis assumes that you have a choice. I can't have a dish so have the TVD. At the moment thats great becuse i have ITVHD for the WC, but after that i may feel envious of the sky HD content.

[Timbo21]

If TW get the Sky HD channels I will be happy to pay £10 extra a month. I guess just in general I find pay-per-view TV worrying since it does become very expensive. I'm sure TW (hopefully) won't go down this route, and if they get the Sky stuff then it will be in addition.

It does seem much of Sky HD stuff is upscaled at the moment, just as the films on ITV HD are. I think Sky movies HD is possibly the main benefit at the moment.

[Timbo21]

Originally Posted by meltonboy

Well we started this discussion on another thread, but i maintain that the TV Drive is ok value assuming that the HD content grows.

You can't really add in PPV episodes into your cost comparison as they aren't available on sky anyway.

I do like the TV Drive (very much actually).

At the moment if we want to watch more HD than BBC & ITV World Cup, & a bit of teleport, then it is going to cost us. I think it is a relevant comparison with Sky, just in terms of available HD content, even if it's not available on Sky.

T.

[Cable Monkey]

Personally I think TVDrive was never seen as a HD platform but more as a rival to Sky+. HDMI comes with modern kit and HD was almost an afterthought. The financial profiling of the service was as a PVR so it is possible that if Telewest is not to make a big fat loss, only free to view HD will come as standard with others being built into packages or be VOD and finance themselves. The major switch to HD will not come until analogue is switched off and until then will probably command a fee. Full adoption of HD is still years away.

[meltonboy]

Apart from HD films, i see the other PPV stuff as just a bonus. I'm happy enough to consider 4 quid for an HD film when a SD one is 3 quid from TW or Blockbuster.

As for old episode of Lost and Desperate Housewives in HD for 99p, well, i think people-power can decide this one. If people aren't that attracted to it (and i can see why), it can't really be expanded too much.

I'm sure that TW are negotiating for the other HD channels in the background, so i don't think that they are choosing to go down the VOD route, just providing it as an extra. Also, it's not really TW's fault that it is new and therefore HD channel numbers are limited.

[andythescientis]

Originally Posted by Timbo21

I guess just in general I find pay-per-view TV worrying since it does become very expensive. I'm sure TW (hopefully) won't go down this route, and if they get the Sky stuff then it will be in addition.

Ultimatly i think the market will decide if PPV is a viable revenue stream for TV distributors. Personally i don't think the current model of £1 per episode works. I might be viable if you could record it onto dvd/HD-DVD, as £24 for the series would be broadly in line with the DVD box set. However as this is not possible at the moment at you can't record VOD material on TVDrive, you are simply paying for the ability to watch the program without adverts at a time of your choosing. However with PVR you can watch anything when you like anyway so this is not a cost benefit. Neither is the fact that it's HD as it's the same price in SD.

So basically your paying £1 to watch the program without adverts. I've no idea what the cost of buying these shows is, or what revenue they make per viewer from advertising so it's hard to say is £1 is a rip off or not, only that my gut feeling is it's too high when taken on top of all the other subscriptions.

Having said that, i'm quite comfortable with the current cost of VOD movies, which is broadly in line with blockbuster rentals. Although having said that blockbuster looks decidedly expensive at the moment when you compare it to the various postal DVD rental providers around, with an average cost of around £2 per movie.

So would i pay £3.95 to rent an HD movie i could rent on DVD for 2 quid without even going out the house. Well maybe, maybe not depending on the movie i guess.

Generally i think the Whole VOD market is due for a pricing revolution in the downward direction as it's all too high for mass usage. After all DVD only broke the mass market due to those 40 quid players in tesco. Similarly VOD won't break the mass market with it's current price structure.

[Soulfinger]

Its really is a matter of what you are after in terms of HD. I like many others can only get one or the other and for me it’s Sky as my road does not have cable. I'm very much into sports and TV shows like 24, Rescue Me etc so the £300 for SkyHD is worth it to me for the footie season and the TV shows on Sky One. If the world cup images on BBCHD are anything to go by then its going to be great and I can see a lot more Sky One shows being in HD when the new TV season starts up in Sept/Oct. As mentioned all the films on Sky movies HD are in HD but I'm personally don't subscribe to the movie channels

If I did have both options available to me I would have still chosen Sky because of the very limited HD content on TVD which I don't see changing much this year as Sky I assume would give themselves a good years head start with HD before they make the SkyHD channels available to Telewest/NTL. Also once the world cup and Wimbledon have finished both IVD and BBC G+HD would have lost a little of their appeal and aren't these trials limited.

Based on this I believe Sky is better value for money as for me to have anything near the same level of HD experience on TVD would have to buy a lot of PPV making TVD more expensive than Sky.

Does anyone know how long the BBC and ITV HD trails will last?

[meltonboy]

Originally Posted by Soulfinger

Does anyone know how long the BBC and ITV HD trails will last?

I'm fairly sure that they were launched as 12 month trials

[digitalsafari]

Originally Posted by Karma

....I read on these boards a very good unbiased technical assesment of why this should be.

Something to do with the picture from USA originated programmes being in MPEG2 which then has to be decoded and up converted to MPEG4 for Sky.

Technically speaking, totally wrong.

MPEG-2 transmission in the USA has nothing to do with the master tapes on which programmes/movies are supplied to the broadcasters.

Sky are supplied on HDCAM and HDCAM-SR professional video tape formats.

Telewest are supplied on HDCAM.

[wandersen]

Originally Posted by digitalsafari

Technically speaking, totally wrong.

MPEG-2 transmission in the USA has nothing to do with the master tapes on which programmes/movies are supplied to the broadcasters.

Sky are supplied on HDCAM and HDCAM-SR professional video tape formats.

Telewest are supplied on HDCAM.

Yes - but in what format does the video tape store the images - or is it uncompressed ?

[digitalsafari]

Originally Posted by wandersen

Yes - but in what format does the video tape store the images - or is it uncompressed ?

HDCAM-SR is Studio Profile MPEG-4 - 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 10bit 1920x1080 at 440Mbps (also 880Mbps).

Very lightly compressed as used on Superman Returns.

[digitalsafari]

HDCAM is DCT compressed 8bit 1440x1080 3:1:1 at around 143Mbps

HDCAM is better than DVCPRO-HD but not as good as HD-D5, HDCAM-SR is much better than HD-D5.

HDCAM-SR is currently the preferred format HD tape format as it does 10bit and 4:4:4 RGB video with 12 audio channels.

Quality of HD tape formats with worst on left and best on the right
HDV, DVCPRO-HD (720p), DVCPRO-HD (1080), HDCAM, HD-D5, HDCAM-SR.

[wandersen]

You know your stuff !!

[digitalsafari]

Originally Posted by wandersen

You know your stuff !!

Been working with HD for over 10 years!

[stevogums]

Going back to the math...
I had 2nd box upstairs..
So got TVDirve downstairs free..
Had it 2 weeks must say..im more than happy...
Be even happier tommorow when i set my new BraviaKDL32v2000 up...

[buffalo2102]

Originally Posted by digitalsafari

Technically speaking, totally wrong.

MPEG-2 transmission in the USA has nothing to do with the master tapes on which programmes/movies are supplied to the broadcasters.

Sky are supplied on HDCAM and HDCAM-SR professional video tape formats.

Telewest are supplied on HDCAM.

Telewest aren't supplied with anything on tape, if that is what you are saying.

[digitalsafari]

Originally Posted by buffalo2102

Telewest aren't supplied with anything on tape, if that is what you are saying.

BBC and ITV HD are via leased line.
VOD is HDCAM supplied to ODG (On Demand Group).

The point is US MPEG-2 transmission has nothing to do with master tapes.

[Woolybully]

Just got off the phone with Sky after trying to cancell my subscription.I am due to have TVdrive installed on Saturday and now (one hour later) I'm not sure what to do.The woman at Sky told me that they would DEFINATELY NOT be selling any HD channels to Telewest so I would be stuck with the BBC test channel + ITV? and whatever is on teleport.She then went on to offer me a £125 discount on my subscription (over 4 months) at the end of which she said there would be some fantastic offers on for exsisting customers,but wouldn't elaborate. I have to decide soon what to do and call Telewest to cancell my instalation if that is what I decide.What do you guys think? Is it worth switching if Telewest are going to struggle to find HD content outside of the BBC?
Your thoughts please.

[Badger0-0]

Personally I wouldn't believe a word Sky say.

I have been hounded for £22 I owed them since I cancelled 3 weeks ago.
Numerous phone calls and letters. I paid over a week ago.

The £300 they owe me??? Not a word, even though I was told I'd get it in 2 weeks at most.

I'm seriously considering a harrassment complaint

[Timbo21]

Originally Posted by Woolybully

Just got off the phone with Sky after trying to cancell my subscription.I am due to have TVdrive installed on Saturday and now (one hour later) I'm not sure what to do.The woman at Sky told me that they would DEFINATELY NOT be selling any HD channels to Telewest so I would be stuck with the BBC test channel + ITV? and whatever is on teleport.She then went on to offer me a £125 discount on my subscription (over 4 months) at the end of which she said there would be some fantastic offers on for exsisting customers,but wouldn't elaborate. I have to decide soon what to do and call Telewest to cancell my instalation if that is what I decide.What do you guys think? Is it worth switching if Telewest are going to struggle to find HD content outside of the BBC?
Your thoughts please.

If it was pre-world cup I think this would be easier to answer. There is something very liberating about being free from Sky. They get you hooked, & then tempt you with cheaper offers to keep you .

My OP is hypothetical. Personally I won't be using much pay-per-view, & will just watch what I can free from BBC, ITV, & teleport. If Sky feels it is worth their while to let TW have their HD channels then, if it will make them more money, I'm sure they will.

Aside from the HD side of things, I find the pq much better than Sky+, and the ability to record two channels whilst watching a third is fantastic. First series' like Lost & Desperate Housewives are free on teleport, if it's in standard definition, amongst other things like Blue Planet in HD & Walking With Dinosaurs. You don't get DD 5.1 on Sky movies tho, via the optical digital audio output, but the pq is way better, especially using HDMI upscaled.

I think the TV Drive is a more advanced box with greater capabilities than the Sky boxes. I am quite happy with it for at least a year. If I want to I can go back after 12 months. But that's just me

HTH,

T.

[Jordans Norks]

Good points - I'm more than happy with my TV-Drive but will review whether Sky HD is better for me after 12 months!

Originally Posted by Timbo21

If it was pre-world cup I think this would be easier to answer. There is something very liberating about being free from Sky. They get you hooked, & then tempt you with cheaper offers to keep you .

My OP is hypothetical. Personally I won't be using much pay-per-view, & will just watch what I can free from BBC, ITV, & teleport. If Sky feels it is worth their while to let TW have their HD channels then, if it will make them more money, I'm sure they will.

Aside from the HD side of things, I find the pq much better than Sky+, and the ability to record two channels whilst watching a third is fantastic. First series' like Lost & Desperate Housewives are free on teleport, if it's in standard definition, amongst other things like Blue Planet in HD & Walking With Dinosaurs. You don't get DD 5.1 on Sky movies tho, via the optical digital audio output, but the pq is way better, especially using HDMI upscaled.

I think the TV Drive is a more advanced box with greater capabilities than the Sky boxes. I am quite happy with it for at least a year. If I want to I can go back after 12 months. But that's just me

HTH,

T.

[Adrian Hughes]

I have my TV-Drive coming tomorrow, telewest did me an amazing deal as i phoned them to cancel my Tv etc as i was going to try SKY HD, but they offered me a package which i was amazed with as its was just £5 more than im paying at the moment and they are now including TV-Drive and 2nd box for the bedroom !.

I think that HD needs 12 months etc to settle down, so i will be happy with TV drive for that time and have the odd HD program and sport etc, and then see what sky have to offer in 12 months or see if Telewest have the HD content that sky are offering.


Ade

[Cable Monkey]

The woman at Sky told me that they would DEFINATELY NOT be selling any HD channels to Telewest so I would be stuck with the BBC test channel + ITV? and whatever is on teleport.

That tells me Sky are rattled. As a combined company, NTL:telewest are true rivals to Sky and are now worthy of the their best efforts to keep customers. Sky may well always have more customers, but with the other services Cable will have to offer, they will be the bigger company. Competition always benefits the customer. Long may it continue...

[Woolybully]

Thanks for the reply's guys.
I did give it some thought and decided to go ahead with the switch to TVdrive.The people at Sky were NOT happy! but I don't care, it's my decision.I was really surprised by the aggresive tone of the woman I spoke to,she was very intimidating and kept saying things like "I would be stupid to go to cable" and even lied to me by saying " you can't record all channels with TVdrive" and " the programmes you can record self delete after 7 days" What total crap! How can these people get away with such things?
I am now looking forward to having my TVdrive installed on Saturday and watching some HD shows even if it is only from the BBC and ITV etc.....at least I wont have paid £300 for the privilage.

[Timbo21]

TW I think are much more friendly, but in my experience they mess up on the fine details when it comes to installs etc.

[Throttle]

Ive got what id class as great value im on Sky + atm full package but was looking at cancelling movies and sports as i dont watch sports too much and never watch movies 2-3 times a month if that .

Anyhow i rang up telewest to see how much i could have the tv drive with just the supreme package and got £19 a month offered straight away so even if its not got as many Hd channels as sky its still cheaper than my sky + equal package wouldve been so cant complain

So i can now wait 12 months and see if telewest get a decent amount of Hd channels for less than my Sky+ wouldve cost as id never paid £300 for Sky Hd box.

[Karma]

Exactly what I did. For the same reasons. As people discover TVDrive and move to it, it becomes genuine competition for Sky.

One of two things will happen.

1 Advertisers will push Sky to release their HD servive to the cable companies to get the revenue. Sky One etc is already on these platforms in SD. HD will follow.

or

2 Sky will offer those defectors to TVDrive all sorts of cheap incentives to come back to them in a years time.

I ran Sky+ simultaneously with TVDrive for nearly three months ( i only cancelled Sky very recently). Aside from the very obvious advantage that TVDrive offers SD pictures that are much better quality than Sky+, I had two....yes two...marketing calls from Sky after I had my Sky contract terminated.

They were gathering information as to why I'd left, in the hope they could improve services to other customers. The first caller hadn't heard of TVDrive, and was shaken when I explained what it did.

The second was convinced that it couldn't record OR was capable of HD "as our service is"

It appears that Sky are doing the claasic "let's bury our head in the sand until the nasty competition goes away"

Which of course it won't. TW (and its partner NTL) have access to 8 million homes. The same subscriber base that Sky currently have.

TVdrive offers, for the first time, genuine competition. Something Sky have never had before.

They are right to be worried.

K

[meltonboy]

That's pretty poor behaviour by sky. They possibly even actually briefed their staff with false information. My mate at workd called them to enquire about HD and was told that sky was "the only source of HD for the uk".