[StooMonster]

I'm currently married to my DVDO VP50-Pro -- even though I have a Lumagen Radiance XD and a DVDO EDGE -- because it has SDI inputs from my modified Arcam DVD player and the picture quality is superb.

I have been waiting for the Arcam FMJ BDX Blu-ray Player, which comes in two models (transport and fully-featured). I was originally going for transport as it's the purest/simplest model; but have realised I will have to upgrade my audio processors and I don't want to do that at the moment, and the fully featured model doesn't come out until "end 2009" which is pretty much a year away.

So, I wonder ... is there a good Blu-ray player for use with video processors, in particular the Lumagen Radiance?

I am hoping there is one that:

• Region Free for DVD -- absolute must have, no buy if not
• 480i/576i for DVD -- must have
• 1080p24 for Blu-ray -- must have
• 4:2:2 for SD -- nice to have
• Region Free for Blu-ray -- nice to have
• Blu-ray 2.0 spec
• Internal audio decoding of all codecs, analogue output -- use my current amp's direct analogue input

What are you guys using? Does it match the above?

StooMonster

[KelvinS1965]

While no Arcam, the Sony BDP-S550 will do most of the (possible) things on your list unless I'm mistaken, including a one-for-all remote region free hack (for DVDs only, no BluRay multiregion is possible on any player AFAIK). You can select 4:2:2 in the menu IIRC, but I'd need to check on my S350 to confirm (the S550 does the same as my S350, with the addition of analog 5.1 outputs). You also need to check if the S550 does internal decoding on DTS MA as my S350 doesn't (but my amp does anyway).

The only catch is that for DVDs to output at 576i, you will have to go into the setup menu and tell the Sony that your 'display' is 576i. Unlike the older S300/500 models that had a 'source direct' feature. Once in this setting, any BluRays get downscaled to 480/576i as well. I tried this setting last night in preparation for the Lumagen HDQ I just bought off these forums. I think I might just resort to using my Sony DVD recorder as a 576i source for DVDs, depending if I see any difference in PQ once passed through the HDQ for upscaling, compared to using my S350.

If there is another make that does all of Soomonster's requirements, plus source direct, then I'd be interested myself.

[Avi]

Originally Posted by StooMonster

I am hoping there is one that:

• Region Free for DVD -- absolute must have, no buy if not
• 480i/576i for DVD -- must have
• 1080p24 for Blu-ray -- must have
• 4:2:2 for SD -- nice to have
• Region Free for Blu-ray -- nice to have
• Blu-ray 2.0 spec
• Internal audio decoding of all codecs, analogue output -- use my current amp's direct analogue input

Stoo

It may be worth checking out the Pioneer models. I can only speak about the LX91 from personal experience but other models may offer the same/similar -

1) Yes region free for DVD out of the box
2) Source direct mode will auto output at the contents native res/freq which is useful when using a VP. Plus on the fly resolution change via remote
3) 1080/24 for Blu-ray and also R1 film if required
4) YCbCr 4:2:2 is an output option
5) I don't know about MR Blu-ray mods at this point
6) Profile 2 enabled but awaiting a FW update to active
7) Currently full HD internal audio decoding is limited to Dolby TrueHD with DTS HD MA plus bass management for analogue due FW update due March

It's not a cheap player but the analogue stage is good quality.

AVI

[StooMonster]

Thanks KelvinS1965, you've just stopped me from buying one. Phew!

576i? That's rubbish. No sale.

StooMonster

[KelvinS1965]

Originally Posted by StooMonster

Thanks KelvinS1965, you've just stopped me from buying one. Phew!

576i? That's rubbish. No sale.

StooMonster

You can change it back to 1080/24p when you watch BluRays, but it just means going into a menu that's a bit of a faf, compared to having source direct.

EDIT: I guess you knew that since your other thread on the BluRay players section.

Kind of a side issue, but is one DVD player's 576i output much the same as anyothers, in terms of feeding it into a VP for upscaling and deinterlacing? This lack of source direct is going to be a pain once I get the HDQ, but I have a DVD recorder and an older Sony NS92V DVD player that I could use just for DVDs and leave the BDP-S350 purely for BluRays.

[StooMonster]

Originally Posted by KelvinS1965

You can change it back to 1080/24p when you watch BluRays, but it just means going into a menu that's a bit of a faf, compared to having source direct.

A bit of a faf means no money from me.

StooMonster

[Ian_S]

Originally Posted by KelvinS1965

Kind of a side issue, but is one DVD player's 576i output much the same as anyothers, in terms of feeding it into a VP for upscaling and deinterlacing? This lack of source direct is going to be a pain once I get the HDQ, but I have a DVD recorder and an older Sony NS92V DVD player that I could use just for DVDs and leave the BDP-S350 purely for BluRays.

Depends how good the MPEG-2 decoder is. Large variations are possible here.

[Ian_S]

Originally Posted by StooMonster

A bit of a faf means no money from me.

StooMonster

Stoomonster,

You're only workable option at the moment is the Pioneer LX91. It has source direct and most importantly an audio delay function which I can assure you, you will need. Otherwise expect dreadful lip-sync between audio and video, with the audio being way ahead, not even close.

No players aside from the Pioneers offer source direct (1st gen Sony's were designed by Pioneer for Sony hence they had SD) and it seems NO player aside from the LX91 offers any kind of lipsync function.

Might be cheaper in the long run, and get you better audio to just go and buy an Arcam AVR600. John Dawson assured me they'd spent a lot of time on it's HDMI inputs to fix audio issues, so I'd be willing to try. Then you can get a cheaper player like the BD35, or a 51FD if you still need source direct and get proper audio regardless. Arcam's transport later could then be a good buy.

[StooMonster]

Ian_S, all good advice.

Why is it so darn hard to get something so simple?

I am really quite happy with my AV9/P7 -- I think the AVR600 looks like a DiVA product that has been kicked it up to FMJ because they have discontinued the range. One only has to look at the product code numbers to see this is the case. Besides, I'm not interested in an integrated AV Receiver. Moreover, it's got a tuner in it ... a radio Ian_S, a radio! What is more, I am not exactly sold on the FMJ AV888 being the same case as AVR600 either; won't it be mostly empty (with no amplification in it)?

Maybe the Radiance stays on the shelf, and I get a player that does 480p/576p for SD and I continue using VP50-Pro ... or LX91.

StooMonster

[NicolasB]

Why is 1080p24 a must-have if you use a VP? 1080i/60 will be identical.

[StooMonster]

Originally Posted by NicolasB

Why is 1080p24 a must-have if you use a VP? 1080i/60 will be identical.

True, you are correct.

Although I was implying "less processing", for a Blu-ray player to create 1080i/60 it needs to encode the 1080p24 that is on the disc and that requires "processing" of some sort.

Source Direct sounds like the right kind of thing.

StooMonster

[binbag]

Originally Posted by StooMonster

A bit of a faf means no money from me.

StooMonster

I was at the Bristol S+V show today and watched a speaker salesman lose a whole roomful of prospects trying to load a BR to demo. The more experienced salesmen had multi BR setups to enable smooth changes of material - if this is anything to go by, faffing is the future of AV.

[KelvinS1965]

Originally Posted by Ian_S

Depends how good the MPEG-2 decoder is. Large variations are possible here.

Sorry to butt into this thread (maybe I should start a similar one 'Ideal DVD player for Video Processors / Scalers'?). Out of the following pieces of equipment I already have, which is likely to have the best MPEG-2 decoder?

1. Sony BDP-S350 BluRay player.
2. Sony NS 92V DVD player.
3. Sony RDR-HXD870 DVD recorder/player.

Possibly they may all use the same chip for this function as they are similar vintage (the BD player being more recent, but a real 'faff' to change to 576i for every DVD) and they all have HDMI outputs.

All would (presumably) be used at 576i output allowing my HDQ to upscale and deinterlace.

[StooMonster]

Depends how one defines "good MPEG-2 decoder".

I guess you could run them into your system with each outputting 480i/576i over HDMI with some test discs; although I am unclear about "good MPEG-2 decoder" with the exception of Chroma Bug being present or not.

StooMonster

[Ian_S]

Originally Posted by KelvinS1965

Possibly they may all use the same chip for this function as they are similar vintage (the BD player being more recent, but a real 'faff' to change to 576i for every DVD) and they all have HDMI outputs

Absolutely not for the BD player. BD's unlike DVD players don't use different chips for different parts, hence it's virtually impossible to get an untouched decoded video ouput for HD-SDI. You can only get to the processed output that will also go out over HDMI.

Oppo spent a lot of time for the 983 looking at MPEG decoders as they are not all idential, before settling on I think a mediatek one.

I would expect the S350 to provide the best output as it will have a much more recent decoder that can also do MPEG2-HD built into the Blu-ray chipset.

IF DVD players were all using recent MPEG-2 decoders then CUE ought to have been a thing of the past on DVD players some time ago, however it isn't.

[mikelj]

Originally Posted by KelvinS1965

Sorry to butt into this thread (maybe I should start a similar one 'Ideal DVD player for Video Processors / Scalers'?). Out of the following pieces of equipment I already have, which is likely to have the best MPEG-2 decoder?

1. Sony BDP-S350 BluRay player.
2. Sony NS 92V DVD player.
3. Sony RDR-HXD870 DVD recorder/player.

Possibly they may all use the same chip for this function as they are similar vintage (the BD player being more recent, but a real 'faff' to change to 576i for every DVD) and they all have HDMI outputs.

All would (presumably) be used at 576i output allowing my HDQ to upscale and deinterlace.

Not really an answer to your question; but replace 2. and 3. with Oppo 980?

[SimonO]

I'm after exactly the same Stoo and I think I've settled for the Pioneer BDP-51FP. Seems like the most sensible 'stop gap' player..

[PaulWilliam]

Originally Posted by StooMonster

I am really quite happy with my AV9/P7 -- I think the AVR600 looks like a DiVA product that has been kicked it up to FMJ because they have discontinued the range.

StooMonster

Stoo,

Have a look at the following thread. Apparently the AVR600 beat the AV9/P7 combination in blind tests. Forum member coldmachine has done a very detailed review.

http://www.avforums.com/forums/arcam...pressions.html

I am tempted, even though like you I like to keep processing and amplification seperate, and don't like the idea of an integrated radio!

Proof of the pudding is in the listening though. I may wait until the Arcam Blueray transport is out and then make a decision.

[KelvinS1965]

Originally Posted by mikelj

Not really an answer to your question; but replace 2. and 3. with Oppo 980?

Plus, the Oppo 980 doesn't record so I'd still need to keep the '870 in the rack anyway. I don't watch many DVDs on my projector these days, so the question is moot really, but having a simple non 'faffy' way to watch DVDs upscaled through my new HDQ would be nice, hence using one of the other devices rather than the BDP-S350. I was interested in the LX91 until I saw the price but the cheaper '52FP doesn't do BD live from what I understand? Not a biggy really as only my young son has made any use on the couple of discs that have had BD live. I'll do some testing of DVDs on the various players I have to see if I can see any difference once upscaled by the HDQ (which I haven't actually collected yet ).

[jgrg]

Originally Posted by Ian_S

I would expect the S350 to provide the best output as it will have a much more recent decoder that can also do MPEG2-HD built into the Blu-ray chipset.

Here is a test of the S350. CUE seems OK, but I wouldn't touch it because it clips 10 pixels from all sides of the image.

[Ian_S]

Originally Posted by jgrg

Here is a test of the S350. CUE seems OK, but I wouldn't touch it because it clips 10 pixels from all sides of the image.

In which mode? The one I have shows the full DVE basics 1920 x 1080p chart with no clipping at all... It also passes blacker than black from DVE as well. On top of that my view on it's output is that is seems to use more DNR than other players by default and that there are some well buried DNR settings you can turn on if you want, so I'm

[StooMonster]

Originally Posted by Ian_S

Might be cheaper in the long run, and get you better audio to just go and buy an Arcam AVR600. John Dawson assured me they'd spent a lot of time on it's HDMI inputs to fix audio issues, so I'd be willing to try. Then you can get a cheaper player like the BD35, or a 51FD if you still need source direct and get proper audio regardless. Arcam's transport later could then be a good buy.

Despite the fact that it is also a radio, and I don't buy integrated amps, I'm actually seriously considering the Arcam AVR600 ... with an Arcam Blu-ray transport.

For one thing, simplification on the AV front. If its video processing is okay I might just plug everything into it; if its going to have the DVD/Blu-ray anyway that only leaves progressive sources (Apple TV, games consoles, PCH NMT, etc.) and Sky HD. Sky HD is the signal that needs the most processing, so I will probably leave DVDO VP50-Pro inline simply to clean up that signal and output 1080p/50 to Arcam AVR600.

This means that audio and video switching will be on one remote control rather than two, although the family are well trained it will help baby-sitters and grandparents (or maybe I should finally program up the Pronto).

For another thing, I will most likely keep the P7 and bi-amp my PMC speakers; in fact, the idea has made me think about getting another P7 (cheap) and tri-amping my speakers.

What is more, Arcam AVR600 has got two HDMI outputs which has made me think that I might be able to negotiate Mrs StooMonster the installation of a projector (e.g. Pioneer KURO KRF-9000FD).

StooMonster

[Manni01]

Just to butt in re region free blu-ray, a selection of Sony, Pioneer and Panasonic players can be transformed to be region-free for DVD and for BD. I used Multiregionmagic (google is your friend) to purchase a Panasonic BD-50 and am very happy (just need to occasionally use the remote to change BD zone).

On the BD-50, it's not simply a firmware but added electronics, which means the firmware can be updated without any problem.

By the way, the BD-50 (and its successor BD-55) ticks all the boxes in the original post. 480i/576 can be forced on component. MPEG2 decoder is not great though.

Hope this helps.

[StooMonster]

Originally Posted by Manni01

By the way, the BD-50 (and its successor BD-55) ticks all the boxes in the original post. 480i/576 can be forced on component.

Thanks Manni01, but I just assumed everyone would expect (a) HDMI only (b) automatic switching between 576i/480i and 1080p, I have been truly shocked that most Blu-ray players cannot do this simple thing.

StooMonster

[Manni01]

Originally Posted by StooMonster

Thanks Manni01, but I just assumed everyone would expect (a) HDMI only (b) automatic switching between 576i/480i and 1080p, I have been truly shocked that most Blu-ray players cannot do this simple thing.

StooMonster

Agreed, this is why I use component @ 576i for DVD and HDMI for blu-ray. There is no loss in quality (the SD signal from component is actually better than from HDMI).

I don't know of any BD player that switches automatically between 576i and 1024p on HDMI (but you can of course switch manually with the BD-50).

Anyway this was more to flag the fact that zone free BD-player were available (it's also possible to mod an existing player for a fee).

[StooMonster]

Originally Posted by Manni01

I don't know of any BD player that switches automatically between 576i and 1024p on HDMI (but you can of course switch manually with the BD-50).

Pioneers and older Sony models, current Sonys do not; Pioneer call the feature "Source Direct", the player passes through unprocessed signals. I expect Arcam will do the same.

Switching manually is out of the question as is component video, I might as well stay with SDI'ed DVD player and change entire source for Blu-ray discs as change from one input to another; and less confusing for Mrs StooMonster and kids.

StooMonster

[Manni01]

Originally Posted by StooMonster

Pioneers and older Sony models, current Sonys do not; Pioneer call the feature "Source Direct", the player passes through unprocessed signals. I expect Arcam will do the same.

Switching manually is out of the question as is component video, I might as well stay with SDI'ed DVD player and change entire source for Blu-ray discs as change from one input to another; and less confusing for Mrs StooMonster and kids.

StooMonster

Thanks for the source direct info on Pioneer players, I didn't know that's what it was doing.

I use a Logitech Harmony One, so at least that takes the "complexity" issue out for wife and kids.

DVDs are played from HTPC, I find the upscaling much better than the PJ (Reon on HD-750), plus they are all on the NAS so no fiddling with the discs. So it's DVI/HDMI and everything at 1080P...

Seriously considering an external VP though...

[Avi]

Originally Posted by StooMonster

Pioneers and older Sony models, current Sonys do not; Pioneer call the feature "Source Direct", the player passes through unprocessed signals. I expect Arcam will do the same.

It will be interesting to see if Arcam does have 576i/480i over HDMI on the model using the ABT2010. Interlaced SD output isn't an option on the Oppo 983 as it is on others models. I hope the Arcam transport version would have a source direct type feature unlike the Denon transport.

AVI

[StooMonster]

From what I understand, interlaced 480i/576i output is not an option with the current ABT2010 video processing chip; but I'm sure this will change for their next iteration, whenever that happens.

I wonder if Arcam are waiting for a new chip from ABT, and that's part of the reason for the delay?

StooMonster

[Avi]

Originally Posted by StooMonster

I wonder if Arcam are waiting for a new chip from ABT, and that's part of the reason for the delay?

StooMonster

Possibly but John Dawson talked specifically about the ABT2010 but who knows.

AVI