Radiance XD and Samsung SkyHD "NO 576i"!

-Hitman- · 14-10-2008, 11:58 AM

Managed to source a new Samsung SkyHD box but unfortunately i cannot get it to output 576i using the Radiance XD.

Already had all the necessary resolutions set in the EDID config as this was pre-set for the Thomson box anyway, which reported 576i as expected but not a chance with the Samsung.

Powered everything off, powered on the XD then the Sky box.

Radiance reports 720P when the sky box is searching for listings after boot up, then selecting a normal SD channel it switches to 576P, Bummer.

Any suggestions??

Avi · 14-10-2008, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Hitman-

Managed to source a new Samsung SkyHD box but unfortunately i cannot get it to output 576i using the Radiance XD.

Out of interest how does the Bloomberg channel compare to the Thosmon box with 576p output ? I read some feedback that suggested that the ticker motion is very smooth with no judder or combing irrespective of what else is being displayed in the image using when the box deinterlaces and out 576p.

AVI

-Hitman- · 14-10-2008, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avi

Out of interest how does the Bloomberg channel compare to the Thosmon box with 576p output ? I read some feedback that suggested that the ticker motion is very smooth with no judder or combing irrespective of what else is being displayed in the image using when the box deinterlaces and out 576p.

AVI

The tickers run very smoothly and not seen any sign of combing or break up yet!

eiren · 14-10-2008, 12:46 PM

Are you using Automatic or the 576 output on the Samsung? What version of software is on it? Mine upgraded itself this week, I thought it might be the new EPG... but alas no.

-Hitman- · 14-10-2008, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eiren

Are you using Automatic or the 576 output on the Samsung? What version of software is on it? Mine upgraded itself this week, I thought it might be the new EPG... but alas no.

Samsung is set to auto but tried 576 anyway which did nothing.

The software version is 973004
Model no.0.7.000
OS version 1.32A0I
EPG. 5.10.j HD

Any differences to yours Eiren?

eiren · 14-10-2008, 1:01 PM

I'll check it tonight and see if it's the same. I just followed Stoo's advice in the thread on here, and it was reporting PAL when you pressed OK.

I haven't got the HDP anymore, so can't double check it again tonight. Everything seemed as instructed.

One thing that's for certain was that I didn't detect any difference between any of the modes, and Bloomburg was smooth for everything.

-Hitman- · 14-10-2008, 1:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eiren

Bloomburg was smooth for everything.

I concur, no problems with the tickers and it does look like a marked improvement in PQ and sharper picture over the old Thomson box, no combing found yet either on normal viewing.

I'll look out for your report tonight, thanks!

Ianfromnotts · 14-10-2008, 2:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Hitman-

Managed to source a new Samsung SkyHD box but unfortunately i cannot get it to output 576i using the Radiance XD.

Please no - don't let this be true

Gordon @ Convergent AV · 14-10-2008, 2:31 PM

In the Lumagen edid set it to only accept 576i and 1080i. Then MENU SAVE SAVE SAVE.

Now disconnect everything from the mains, leave a minute, then plug it all back in and switch on and see if that gets it going.

Gordon

eiren · 14-10-2008, 2:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ianfromnotts

Please no - don't let this be true

As reported above, and confirmed by Hitman, it doesn't really make much difference, as it seems to be outputting a decent signal either way. I've also ran it through DVDO's PReP and that's identical too in the end result.

I was going to take my Samsung box up to Piers to test this, but looks like Hitman's saved me a journey.

-Hitman- · 14-10-2008, 3:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gordon @ Convergent AV

In the Lumagen edid set it to only accept 576i and 1080i. Then MENU SAVE SAVE SAVE.

Now disconnect everything from the mains, leave a minute, then plug it all back in and switch on and see if that gets it going.

Gordon

I think i may have already tried those 2 resolutions, trying to get 576i but i'll double check them now, thanks.

Update:

Does exactly the same as reported earlier and still no 576i!

Gordon @ Convergent AV · 14-10-2008, 3:18 PM

mmmm.....that's annoying. Just to confirm (as you have only mentioned you tried those resolutions before) you did actually pull the mains leads out of everything? Its an important step sometimes to get compete re-negotiation of these damn digital interfaces.

-Hitman- · 14-10-2008, 3:27 PM

Yes, unplugged the lot.

Only thing i can get the Sky box to accept via an EDID force is the colourspace, this changes as with the EDID settings (eg set 422 444 to off and the sky box outputs RGB) but resolution force a no go.

VirusKiller · 14-10-2008, 3:34 PM

Any other cables connected to the Samsung?

@Eiren - what cables do you have connected?

-Hitman- · 14-10-2008, 4:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VirusKiller

Any other cables connected to the Samsung?

@Eiren - what cables do you have connected?

Only HDMI and Toshlink, nothing that could interfere with the outputs.

eiren · 14-10-2008, 6:02 PM

I was running HDMI into a DVI converter.

Right these are my Samsung details:

Manufacturer: Samsung
Model Number: 0.7.000
Version Number: 975004
Operating System Version: 1.32A0I
EPG Software Version: 5.10.j HD

-Hitman- · 14-10-2008, 6:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eiren

I was running HDMI into a DVI converter.

Right these are my Samsung details:

Manufacturer: Samsung
Model Number: 0.7.000
Version Number: 975004
Operating System Version: 1.32A0I
EPG Software Version: 5.10.j HD

Mine..

Model no. 0.7.000
version no. 973004
OS version. 1.32A0I
EPG. 5.10.j HD

Looks like you have a newer version no, hmmm.

Eiren, whats the manufacture date of your samsung, mines Aug 2008?

eiren · 14-10-2008, 6:55 PM

Mine says July 2008 on the sticker at the back of the box.

Sorry I think I have the same software version, just my 3 looked like a 5 when I had written it down.

I'll see if I can borrow the HDP again and test once more. I'm positive I could get PAL up when I pressed the OK button on the HDP.

The other test using PReP proved that the Samsung box seems to be deinterlacing very well, as it was at least matching PReP in terms of the Bloomberg Channel. I am guessing that even if I am wrong about the 576i (which has me puzzled now), that the Samsung box is still the best picture via HDMI and seems to have a greatly improved processor on it.

Is that pretty much what you're seeing on your set-up?

-Hitman- · 14-10-2008, 7:05 PM

I was wondering the same thing about the software version you reported as they are similar 3 and 5, well thats that out of the way, just re-confim this when you can.

I need to have some more time with this but initial impressions are as posted earlier, a marked PQ improvement over the Thomson.

I have not seen any combing whatsoever and bloomburg is perfect!

Whether the de-interlacing is as good as the Lumagen we may never know now but it looks to be holding up well, far better than Thomson anyway which is a bonus.

Thanks for your input BTW!

lloydsmart · 14-10-2008, 9:45 PM

Jeez, would it really be that hard for someone to make a Sky HD box that did 576i output and Dolby Digital bitstream all over HDMI?

It's been so long now you'd think someone would have done it? Sky are so backwards!

NicolasB · 16-10-2008, 9:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Hitman-

I have not seen any combing whatsoever and bloomburg is perfect!

No combing at all sounds distinctly ominous to me. It suggests that the box's deinterlacing is permanently locked into video mode: that will cause significant loss of resolution on SD film sources. Unless you're dealing with a deinterlacer that is clever enough to do film/video cadence detection region by region rather than frame by frame I'd be much more comfortable if a video ticker on a film background did comb occasionally.

NicolasB · 16-10-2008, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Hitman-

Managed to source a new Samsung SkyHD box but unfortunately i cannot get it to output 576i using the Radiance XD.

This is a major

.

This doesn't seem like, but is there any possibility that the Samsung box might behave differently when talking to an HDP than it does when talking to a Radiance? For example, might it treat the EDID differently depending on whether it's talking to an HDMI input or a DVI-D input? If it did, that would explain Hitman and Eiren's conflicting results.

VirusKiller · 16-10-2008, 12:14 PM

If anyone in the Milton Keynes area has a Samsung (or Pace) box and wants to try it out with my Radiance, please PM me.

-Hitman- · 16-10-2008, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NicolasB

No combing at all sounds distinctly ominous to me. It suggests that the box's deinterlacing is permanently locked into video mode: that will cause significant loss of resolution on SD film sources. Unless you're dealing with a deinterlacer that is clever enough to do film/video cadence detection region by region rather than frame by frame I'd be much more comfortable if a video ticker on a film background did comb occasionally.

After now watching more broadcasts, i have been seeing rare occasions of combing which disappears after a few seconds, i have also seen diagonal stairstepping on edges now and again depending on the program being watched, tickertapes still remain fluid with no problems.

StooMonster · 16-10-2008, 8:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Hitman-

The tickers run very smoothly and not seen any sign of combing or break up yet!

Wonder if this means that the STB is always in video mode?

StooMonster

-Hitman- · 16-10-2008, 9:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StooMonster

Wonder if this means that the STB is always in video mode?

StooMonster

I think we're all thinking the same thing.

Could this be detected if a comparison was done using HDMI 576P and scart RGBs 576i as a reference, if not how??

StooMonster · 16-10-2008, 9:26 PM

Well a good test would be to record some 'film' material, such as a movie, and look out for moiré or twitter artefacts which would demonstrate that material is being forced into 'video' mode when it is in fact 'film'.

'Film' deinterlaced as 'video' note the moiré (click here for animation).

'Film' deinterlaced as 'film' (click here for animation).

StooMonster

ihan · 17-10-2008, 6:27 AM

My patented test:

1. Watch a film on a sky movie channel. (Standard def channel).
2. Give it a few seconds for the box to 'lock' into film mode.
3. Now press and HOLD DOWN the up or down arrow on the sky remote and see if the text in the program banner at the bottom of the screen combs or not. If it combs, good news, it is in film mode. If the text has a smooth transition from program to program, it is in video mode.
4. Repeat the above several times and with several different films, to see if the program banner text combs regularly. If it does - good news, the film lock is reliable.

Hope this helps,
Ian

StooMonster · 17-10-2008, 8:32 AM

That's a great test!

StooMonster

NicolasB · 17-10-2008, 8:44 AM

With full-frame film-mode deinterlacing I sometimes notice combing on subtitles too.

If one is charitable and considers the possibility that the box might actually be capable of mixed-mode deinterlacing, this wouldn't let you distinguish between correct mixed-mode processing and the full-frame-video approach, I don't think.