For all of us (particularly VP30 owners), Philips is coming out with anew HD sat receiver that can output 576i on both the HDMI and component outputs. The unit is due to be released in August, looks good and is already fitted for the German sat provider Premiere.

This means that there will be only one (HDMI) cable out of the sat box into video processor for best HD and SD PQ!

Maybe Pace or Thomson could do the same for Sky HD?

The model name is "Philips DSR-9005". You can see it on Philips website or any of the geramn online Sat vendors like digitalpremiere.de.

BTW, you will not find reference to that feature in the technical specs but it is clearly spelled out in the instructions manual on Philips website.

[madshi]

Will it do 576i YCbCr or "only" 576i RGB?

I believe it is only RGB..

Have you ever seen YCbCr on a Sat receiver?

[madshi]

I hope/except that the HDTV Dreambox 8000 will output all we need. Will probably take until September/October until it's available for purchase, though.

[shortround]

What's so great about 576i from a HD satellite receiver? Surely if the programs are being broadcast in 720p/1080i (which is it these days?) then the Philips will be downscaling the HD signal to 576i and losing all that 'High Definition' detail anyway.

I can't imagine a downscaled and then re-upscaled image through the VP30 will look any better than the 1080i output.

[madshi]

Originally Posted by shortround

What's so great about 576i from a HD satellite receiver? Surely if the programs are being broadcast in 720p/1080i (which is it these days?) then the Philips will be downscaling the HD signal to 576i and losing all that 'High Definition' detail anyway.

I can't imagine a downscaled and then re-upscaled image through the VP30 will look any better than the 1080i output.

You're completely right. HDTV programs should be output in 720p/1080i. But do you want to have 2 receivers? One for HDTV and one for SDTV? I don't. So my HDTV receiver has to handle SDTV for me, too. And when watching SDTV, it's very important to be able to output 576i, if possible even in YCbCr, because only this way you can avoid the video processing in the receiver and let the VP30 do all the work.

Basically, if you have an external video processor, you should configure all sources so that they do no video processing at all. That means for 576i broadcasts the receiver should output 576i, for 720p broadcasts the receiver should output 720p and for 1080i broadcasts the receiver should output 1080i. In combination with an external video processor this gives you by far the best image quality.

Unfortunately, most HDTV receivers refuse to output 576i. They insist on deinterlacing that to 576p. And they don't do a good job with that (compared to say a VP30 with ABT102 addon).

[PaulWilliam]

It is a disgrace that the Sky HD box does not output 576i. Many who are willing to invest money in things like an external video scaler and SkyHD have found that we have to take a backwards step in the SD picture in order to get an HD picture.

A year a go I was paying £33 for Sky Sports World. This is going to be £37 in September and including the SkyHD subscription = £47, and yet my SD picture has to take a step backwards.

My DVD player can input 576i over HDMI, so it should be technically possible that the Sky HD box could as well. They need an additional option on the "Picture Settings" menu that could say "576 Progressive" and could be switched to on or off. Those without scalers could choose "ON" and those with scalers could choose "OFF".

Can these non Sky HD boxes output 576i and provide access to the Sky channels and the full EPG and associated features?

Unfortunately the answer is no. Sky is the only satellite provider that forces pairing between their boxes and their cards. What's more their boxes are the only one that can descramble the signal....

My guess is that this is unlikely to change in the future.

[shortround]

Originally Posted by madshi

So my HDTV receiver has to handle SDTV for me, too. And when watching SDTV, it's very important to be able to output 576i, if possible even in YCbCr, because only this way you can avoid the video processing in the receiver and let the VP30 do all the work.

Ah, I see, he was talking about SD programs from the HD box. Thanks for clearing that up!

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by madshi

Will it do 576i YCbCr or "only" 576i RGB?

Why is component video essential? All video display systems and as far as I was aware all broadcasts were set up for and used RGB. DVD is the only system which is encoded in component video.

[Stephen Neal]

Originally Posted by Thunder

Why is component video essential? All video display systems and as far as I was aware all broadcasts were set up for and used RGB. DVD is the only system which is encoded in component video.

All SD and HD broadcasts are component as well, just as DVD, as they use the same flavour of MPEG2 (In fact you can record DSat and DTT SD broadcasts losslessly to DVD as a result of this). Component was also used for broadcast by the MAC system used by BSB and other European broadcasters in the late 80s/early 90s. RGB is not really a broadcast format, and isn't widespread in production.

Broadcasts to home are usually 4:2:0 YCrCb - the same format as used on DVD for SD. Some broadcasts to get signals back to broadcast centres from Outside Broadcasts are 4:2:2 YCrCb.

RGB is used in some high-end "film" post-production, and within cameras. However the output of a broadcast TV camera, and the recording formats, vision mixers, routers etc. are almost universally SDI or HD-SDI based on 4:2:2 (some VT formats are 4:2:0, 4:1:1 or 3:1:1 on tape) YCrCb.

There was some RGB analogue stuff in graphics areas in the late 80s and early 90s - when component digital was yet to be viable and PAL/NTSC composite was too limiting in quality terms.

YCrCb output from set top boxes via HDMI/DVI is a cleaner option than RGB - as it allows scalers etc. to do the conversion from 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 to 4:4:4 and also to do the colour space conversion (possibly with greater mathematical accuracy)

[Thunder]

But dosnt it have to be transcoded to RGB anyway because as far as I was aware nearly all display devices are inherently RGB? I was under the impression that the system used by the majority of broadcast equipment was RGBHV? I know my CRT PJ does. I know the transfer system used is SDI but thought this was able to carry what ever you chuck down it. Please correct me if Im wrong

[madshi]

Display devices are usually RGB, but broadcasts are done in YCbCr, as Stephen already explained. Yes, someone somewhere somewhen has to convert YCbCr to RGB. But do you think the receiver can do this color space conversion as well as your external video processor can do it? I don't think so. Furthermore the color space conversion is not a simple math like multiplying with 2. If you do the color space conversion from 8bit YCbCr to 8bit RGB, you have some rounding losses. If you put 8bit YCbCr into the video processor, the VP can internally do the color space conversion without rounding the results down to 8bit RGB too early. In the end with HDMI 1.1 the VP will have to round down to 8bit RGB, but the VP can do that after deinterlacing and scaling and noise reduction and color correction etc. You'll get a picture with less banding etc if you do it this way. Newer VPs internally calculate with 10bit.

[VirusKiller]

Originally Posted by PaulWilliam

It is a disgrace that the Sky HD box does not output 576i. Many who are willing to invest money in things like an external video scaler and SkyHD have found that we have to take a backwards step in the SD picture in order to get an HD picture.

I share your disappointment at the lack of 576i over HDMI, but let's get real. We users of external video processors are such a tiny minority, why should Sky take us into consideration? Just playing Devil's advocate.