[simon1967]

Hi all,
I am in the process of updating my system and wanted to check a few things before I go ahead and make some bad buys.

I have two displays: a Panasonic Plasma (with HDMI & component inputs) and a Marquee 9500 CRT.

I want to be able to output to both of them - preferably without having to do too much switching. Auto sensing would be good although I can reprogram my remote with new macros if need be. They do not need to be outputting at the same time.

I have just changed from a DVDO iScan HD+ to a iScan VP50 to enable me to output at HD resolutions to the CRT.

At present, I am using my Denon AVC-A1SR as a switcher / upscaler / everythinger as the CRT hasn't been completely integrated into the system yet. I would prefer all my video sources to go into the scaler and my audio sources stay in the Denon. The plan is to use a Vision FC4 and a HDMI splitter / switcher to get around the HDCP and output HD resolutions to my CRT.

So, I have attached a link to some diagrams of my existing and my proposed set-up with some questions. Hopefully, all makes sense but I will try to be as clear as possible:

1. I have 2 HD Sources (Sky HD and PS3). I would prefer not to buy 2 x Vision FC4's so if I had both the Sky and PS3 go into a HDMI switcher, and then a single HDMI cable then go to the Vision FC4, would this work? Are there alternatives to the vision (HD Fury etc)?

2. If the above would work, how does the switcher determine which one to output? For example, if both the PS3 and the Sky HD Box were on, which would get priority. I would assume that would depend on whether it was auto or manual switching? If the HDMI box was an auto switcher, can the auto function be over-ridden? Also, any recommendations?

3. If the sources are non-hdmi (ie. Wii, DVD, x-Box), and they are connected to the the VP50 Processor, will the video be upscaled to a higher resolution of the Plasma. I believe it supports 1080i and 720p. Will there be any need for a component cable or will a single HDMI lead be able to output to the plasma display anything that comes into the VP50 - regardless of whether it is s-video, component etc.

4. At the moment, my Sky HD goes via s-video to the Denon and then component to the Plasma. I know this sounds just plain wrong but the picture wasn't that bad when compared by the hdmi direct to the plasma. Unfortunately, the hdmi cables are channelled into the wall and one of them stopped working hence this workaround. The one working hdmi is used to connect the PS3. Nevertheless, will I notice much improvement in the picture quality of standard sky (or even Sky HD) via the scaler as opposed to what I am used to? Will the scaler affect the image of the HD or does it just pass it thru?

Anyway, as i said, I have drawn a diagram so can anyone see any problems with what I am trying to do? Of course, feel free to suggest other ways in making it better / simpler?

Thanks as always.

Simon

[choddo2006]

1. Yes and the HDFury seems to work but isn't powered so you can't run a long cable off it. Would it really be HDMI out of the FC4?

2. Get a manual switcher

3. The vp50 will output everything it receives over HDMI at the res that suits the TV best.

4. The scaler does a nicer job of deinterlacing the 1080i signal. It should be a fair bit better than s-video at the SD channels too.

You can set up output profiles to allow you to easily switch between the PJ and plasma.

Out of interest, what did you use to draw the diagram? I need something that produces output like that.

[simon1967]

Originally Posted by choddo2006

1. Yes and the HDFury seems to work but isn't powered so you can't run a long cable off it. Would it really be HDMI out of the FC4?

Ah yes. Schoolboy error there. The vision FC4 would output either VGA or Component. It seems there are two versions so would it matter what was used to go from the Vision to the DVDO? My guess is the version 2 - HDMI to YUV?

Media Factory - Vision HDMI to Component converter

I have updated the diagram but that leaves me with another small problem - not enough component inputs on the DVDO for all my sources? The Wii (I think) is a component out but I could route that through the amplifier but would much rather keep everything through the scaler and then have a single HDMI to the plasma. I have also seen component to HDMI converters which might also be an option? Not sure though if this is a bit overkill for such a basic gaming device where image quality is not its main attraction

Neet® - Component to HDMI Converter - plus SPDIF Audio: Amazon.co.uk: Amazon.co.uk:

Originally Posted by choddo2006

2. Get a manual switcher

I notice there seem to be a huge difference in prices with these switchers. Why is there the huge price difference between Octava type products:

Media Factory - Octava HDS42-UK, dual output HDMI cross switch

and other switchers on the interweb:

HDMI Switch Splitter 3x2 - Pro-2

I know they are not like for like but for my immediate needs, I only need 2 inputs into 1 output so a product like this Neet thing would do the job?

Neet® - 3 Port HDMI AUTO SWITCH BOX with REMOTE - 3x1: Amazon.co.uk: Electronics & Photo

I also don't have any prior knowledge of HDMI switchers so this isn't intended to 'diss' Octava products - just wondered why the big price difference? Any other suggestions?

Originally Posted by choddo2006

3. The vp50 will output everything it receives over HDMI at the res that suits the TV best.

4. The scaler does a nicer job of deinterlacing the 1080i signal. It should be a fair bit better than s-video at the SD channels too.

You can set up output profiles to allow you to easily switch between the PJ and plasma.

Out of interest, what did you use to draw the diagram? I need something that produces output like that.

Thanks for the advice. It's good to know that I'm on the right track. Another question though? Do media streamers / players like the Popcorn Hour or Apple TV have any issues with HDCP. Just planning for the future so would like to buy a switcher with enough inputs. I assume if I want to incorporate any other HDCP devices, I would just plug them into the HDMI switcher?

With regards to the diagrams, I did them in Adobe Illustrator CS4. I'm a graphic designer so this sort of stuff is easy for me. If it helps, I can send you the original source file which you can then play about with.

Thanks again

[choddo2006]

You can use 3 component inputs to the vp50 but if I were you I'd get rid of the DVD player and replace it with one with HDMI

Don't get an auto-switching box, it's not reliable imho. The Octavia is a matrix, 4 ins and 2 outs, which is why it costs a few quid. You can get a good switched 3->1 for a lot less.

PH and AppleTV both support HDCP.

Thanks for the info on Illustrator - £300+ is a tad much for what I need, I'll struggle on with the utter cak that is powerpoint.

[simon1967]

Originally Posted by choddo2006

You can use 3 component inputs to the vp50 but if I were you I'd get rid of the DVD player and replace it with one with HDMI

Don't get an auto-switching box, it's not reliable imho. The Octavia is a matrix, 4 ins and 2 outs, which is why it costs a few quid. You can get a good switched 3->1 for a lot less.

I'll bear the DVD player option in mind but good to know the VP50 supports 3 component in. I was sidetracked by the BNC connectors.

Originally Posted by choddo2006

PH and AppleTV both support HDCP.

So either of these would connect into the HDMI switcher BEFORE the Vision FC4 - exactly the same as the PS3 and Sky HD, right?

Originally Posted by choddo2006

Thanks for the info on Illustrator - £300+ is a tad much for what I need, I'll struggle on with the utter cak that is powerpoint.

I just had a quick look at ppt and whilst it is not something I do for pleasure, I think that it can do everything that I do on illustrator. Arrows, boxes etc are all available in the shapes palette but then again, I may have a different version to you.

Thanks for your help.

Cheers

Simon

[choddo2006]

Originally Posted by simon1967

I'll bear the DVD player option in mind but good to know the VP50 supports 3 component in. I was sidetracked by the BNC connectors.

One thing - I think the BNC port is limited to certain signals for some reason, I think it can only do 480p. 576p, 720p, 1080i.

So either of these would connect into the HDMI switcher BEFORE the Vision FC4 - exactly the same as the PS3 and Sky HD, right?

Yes. One thing - this single input would mean you can't have custom treatment of the incoming signal between those boxes, so if you have PREP switched on for one resolution (typically 576p), it's on for all of them. Colour and brightness settings the same. That might not be a problem.

I just had a quick look at ppt and whilst it is not something I do for pleasure, I think that it can do everything that I do on illustrator. Arrows, boxes etc are all available in the shapes palette but then again, I may have a different version to you.

it's like a badly designed kitchen or workshop - all the right things are on the list, it's just that actually using them makes you want to kill a kitten.

[Liam @ Prog AV]

If I were you I would run everything HDMI where possible into the VP50, then have a 1:2 distribution amplifier on the output with one output running directlty to the plasma and the other to the CRT via the HDFury. I can see the benefit of trying to retain the BNC output of the VP50, but if all the HDMI sources are gonna have to run through a Fury at some point anyway you might as well do it on the output.

Oh and we've stopped using Vision for the Fury because the Vision chops some of the picture down from the side and leaves it shifted to one side of the screen.

[simon1967]

Originally Posted by choddo2006

One thing - I think the BNC port is limited to certain signals for some reason, I think it can only do 480p. 576p, 720p, 1080i.

Really?? That was my HD route to the CRT. So I won't be able to push out 1080p from the scaler via the BNC's?

Originally Posted by choddo2006

it's like a badly designed kitchen or workshop - all the right things are on the list, it's just that actually using them makes you want to kill a kitten.

Ha, ha. I guess that's why I'm a Mac and no longer use ppts. Moved over to keynote a few years back and never regretted it.

[choddo2006]

Sorry, I was talking about inputs.

[simon1967]

Originally Posted by Liam @ Prog AV

If I were you I would run everything HDMI where possible into the VP50, then have a 1:2 distribution amplifier on the output with one output running directlty to the plasma and the other to the CRT via the HDFury. I can see the benefit of trying to retain the BNC output of the VP50, but if all the HDMI sources are gonna have to run through a Fury at some point anyway you might as well do it on the output.

So if I understand this correctly, the HDCP only kicks in when converting to a non-HDMI output. If the HDMI sources remain unchanged (apart from the scaling etc) and output HDMI, then I have no need for a Vision / Fury? The only reason I need the Vision / Fury is for the CRT as it is a non-digital device? Is this right.

Therefore, and I apologise if I am stating the obvious, the most logical thing would be have a 1 x HDMI > 2 x HDMI splitter (is this the same as a distribution amplifier?) on the VP50 output. One goes to the plasma and the other uses a HD Fury to convert the HDMI into an analogue signal for the CRT?

Originally Posted by Liam @ Prog AV

Oh and we've stopped using Vision for the Fury because the Vision chops some of the picture down from the side and leaves it shifted to one side of the screen.

I never knew that - is this widely known or just something that you've just come across through experience? Where is the best place to get these Fury things of which you speak?

Cheers

Oh and thanks again all for saving me from some expensive errors. I'll draw up a diagram just so I'm clear in my head.

[simon1967]

Originally Posted by choddo2006

Sorry, I was talking about inputs.

Ok. So both options are still available. It will output 1080p via HDMI and BNC Component.

Just need to weigh up the Fury / Vision thing.

[Liam @ Prog AV]

If you use BNC outputs you are going to need 2 Furys and you are eating up your inputs. Since the Fury is going to be the lowest common denominator in terms of digital to analogue conversion for those sources you might just as well go with using the Fury on the output instead. This also means the signal path for the plasma from HDMI sources will remain purely in the digital domain.

The shifted picture with the vision (and many other cheaper converters) always bothered me but I didn't know there was a fix until the HDFury2 came out and actually advertised as such. We've now stopped using all the others and only use Furys. Not one failure or incompatible source that I have come across yet, no dodgy flickering while it tries to kick in and no random green screens. It just does what it says on the tin. And yes, I sell them so I'm inclined to say I'm the best place to get them from

[simon1967]

Originally Posted by Liam @ Prog AV

If you use BNC outputs you are going to need 2 Furys and you are eating up your inputs. Since the Fury is going to be the lowest common denominator in terms of digital to analogue conversion for those sources you might just as well go with using the Fury on the output instead. This also means the signal path for the plasma from HDMI sources will remain purely in the digital domain.

So to be clear, I don't need a Fury if the sources all remain digital (HDMI) - hence the need for the Fury ONLY on the CRT output.

Originally Posted by Liam @ Prog AV

The shifted picture with the vision (and many other cheaper converters) always bothered me but I didn't know there was a fix until the HDFury2 came out and actually advertised as such. We've now stopped using all the others and only use Furys. Not one failure or incompatible source that I have come across yet, no dodgy flickering while it tries to kick in and no random green screens. It just does what it says on the tin. And yes, I sell them so I'm inclined to say I'm the best place to get them from

And your special price for lovely (albeit slightly dim) AVForums customers is ....

[Liam @ Prog AV]

The Fury converts HDMI to VGA. This only needs to happen at the last moment the HDMI hits the display that doesn't have HDMI. So yes, stick it on the output.

Call or email me I don't think we can talk prices and things on the forum.

[choddo2006]

Originally Posted by simon1967

So to be clear, I don't need a Fury if the sources all remain digital (HDMI) - hence the need for the Fury ONLY on the CRT output.

No, the vp50 won't output over BNC if the incoming signal is HDCP encrypted so Liam is suggesting you use it on the HDMI out, then split that afterwards.

[simon1967]

I have drawn a new picture so I totally understand

I guess looking at the 'new' proposed set-up, the HDMI sources direct into the scaler mean that I can assign different settings etc to each of them. I'm not sure how much they would all differ but it always good to have options right

Thanks again

Simon

[bxd]

Hi,

Diagram is OK but it should probably show hdmi run to the projector with only a short connection between the fury and the projector.

Brian

[Liam @ Prog AV]

The odds are that BNC cabling is already in place so in fact the diagram is correct. What you will need to purchase additionally is a VGA-5 Female BNC cable to make the join from the Fury to the existing cabling. Just a guess, it might be that you haven't got anything in place yet.

[simon1967]

Yes, there are already cables in place under the floorboards to the floor mounted PJ. After speaking to Liam, the HD Fury 2 will be connected near the scaler rather than next to the PJ. It will connect to the existing VGA to component PJ cable.

Another question for you all. Some connect audio through the scalers as well - I presume to resolve any lip sync issues that might arise? How common is this or is it best just to connect the audio anyway - just in case. Obviously, it would be easier not to have to put the audio through as it means more trouble reprogramming my remote etc but needs must and all that...

Thanks again all for your advice

[choddo2006]

Is it ok to run that long a cable off the Fury? I was under the impression it was only powered off the HDMI line so couldn't sustain a signal over any kind of distance?

I put all my audio through my vp50. The auto-lipsync is great

Depends if you want bitstreamed HD Audio, you can't really go via the vp50 if you do that as it outputs dedicated audio over optical/coax not HDMI - could you take the HDMI output through your amp before it goes to the splitter & off to the TVs? Maybe.

[simon1967]

Originally Posted by choddo2006

Is it ok to run that long a cable off the Fury? I was under the impression it was only powered off the HDMI line so couldn't sustain a signal over any kind of distance?

Well, I'll double check with Liam as he seems to be the expert on these matters. I have only seen pictures of the Fury but I believe that they come with a mains adaptor so assume that this powers something?

Originally Posted by choddo2006

I put all my audio through my vp50. The auto-lipsync is great

Does this mean that you run a single optical/coax cable from the VP50 to your amp or are you using HDMI for audio as well?

Originally Posted by choddo2006

Depends if you want bitstreamed HD Audio, you can't really go via the vp50 if you do that as it outputs dedicated audio over optical/coax not HDMI - could you take the HDMI output through your amp before it goes to the splitter & off to the TVs? Maybe.

Not even sure I know what bitstreamed audio is?? To be honest, I have only ever used HDMI for the video so really not too sure about the audio side of things. My amplifier doesn't have hdmi inputs either so that's also a non-starter.

Looking at the connections on the VP50, if I connected my audio sources via optical/coax to the VP50, would they be user assigned to the various video source. For example, HDMI 1 Video & Optical 1 Audio are both Sky HD - I assume that they switch in sync according to how you set it up - if that makes any sense?

If this is the case, then I only need to connect a single optical/coax to the amplifier which would make the whole switching process much simpler. Both audio and video switching is done via the VP50. The only thing that this would mean is that I only use a single connection to the amp for audio.

Hmm... maybe, but then again am I just making more work for myself as all the audio works fine as is? How likely are lipsync issues and how does auto lipsync work. I believe the Denon has that capability but it;s hidden in the menus somewhere so I have never used it. Can you adjust audio delay / lipsync on the fly with the VP50?

Maybe I'm over thinking this ...

[Liam @ Prog AV]

There's no hard and fast rule on this one. Generally I prefer to connect audio to the amp and video to the VP, so long as the amp has some audio delay function already built into it. If not, or if not enough inputs, then second choice is run it some or all sources through the VP.

Fury should be fine to run to the projector from the source end. And yes it does have it's own power supply (not all dealers include this in the price I have noticed).

[choddo2006]

Yes you can assign audio inputs.

bitstream is where the player doesn't decode the audio from the disk into multiple channels (either analog or PCM 5.1), it just sends it still encoded as Dolby TrueHD or DTS-MA and leaves it to the amp.

lipsync issues are common as 1080p bluray will go through untouched, whereas an NTSC movie might have 50ms of delay being processed.

I found it massively simplified the cabling by getting as many devices on HDMI as possible (DVD, HDDVD, SkyHD although that needs optical too, xbox) and have one audio cable to the amp. I still have component+2phono for the Wii and s-video for the gamecube but for convenience and avoiding wife-baiting, I just stick that into the front of the amp (then send s-video to the vp50 from there) for an afternoon then put it back in the cupboard.

[simon1967]

First off, thanks for all the advice given here but just having second thoughts on my set-up.

I now have all the parts in my possession - VP50 Scaler, 1 into 2 HDMI splitter box and HD Fury 2 (Thanks Liam). I have just been playing with the DVDO VP-50 and with a little bit of playing, I can definitely see an improvement on SD.

However, my plasma will only accept 1080i/60 or 720p via HDMI. Does this mean that my CRT will be limited to this resolution as well or can I have two different settings for HDMI output? For example, 720p to the plasma and 1080p to the CRT on a simple switch. I have a programmable remote and am familiar with defining macros etc so could obviously solve the problem this way.

As I said, I've only had a quick play but couldn't see different anything that would allow me to save two different output resolutions and wondering if I should have gone with one HDMI out to the plasma and used the BNC component out to the PJ. I know that Liam said that the image shifts over when using the Vision FC4 but wondered exactly how much it shifts over. I wonder whether the PJ and the Plasma on different outputs would make life so much easier?

But then again, am I getting too concerned about 720p v 1080p v 1080i. I haven't connected the PJ yet as I still need some adapters but I would obviously prefer to run 1080p to the CRT but that'll be tomorrow.

S

[choddo2006]

Eh? No 50Hz support?? Which Panasonic plasma have you got?

You can have 10 different output "Display Profiles" set up which you flick between very quickly.

[simon1967]

Originally Posted by choddo2006

Eh? No 50Hz support?? Which Panasonic plasma have you got?

I only had a quick play as I have to order some HDSMI cables and gender changers etc so I probably have got something wrong. It's a Panasonic TH-50PX60B. From the manual it supports:

480/60i
480/60p
576/50i
576/50p
720/50p
720/60p
1080/50i
1080/60i

Originally Posted by choddo2006

You can have 10 different output "Display Profiles" set up which you flick between very quickly.

So I could set up a profile for the plasma - for example 720/50p and another for the CRT - 1080p?? And have simple keys to swap? Well, that's put my mind at rest. Groovy.

Are there any base settings you recommend on the VP50? Or is a case of trial and error and see what you like?

I did some tests with regular HDMI without the scaler and then again with the scaler. Initially the image on SD looked slightly soft - especially when I paused the picture but with a bit of tweaking, the image was much smoother and less pixellated. Pretty impressed so far - even when I don't have a clue what I'm doing!

Cheers

[Liam @ Prog AV]

Your VP50 dealer should really be helping you get this setup going. You want to make sure your Sky box is doing AUTO mode so that prep is being employed for SD. For the TV use 720p50 and for the CRT 1080p50 assuming it can take it. You will want to setup 1080p48 or 1080p72 for Blu-Ray and NTSC DVD on the CRT.

Even if you use BNC and HDMI output to each display you still need to use the display profile function to change the output between plasma and projector. Both outputs always output the same resolution. So stick with Fury on the output as you have now.