[KelvinS1965]

Has anyone else seen this soon to be launched product? It isn't strictly a VP as it doesn't do any scaling, but it does do greyscale, gamma and (in the case of the Pro version) 3D CMS adjustment, so more of a 'calibration box'. It sounds like the ideal unit to put in line with a JVC projector like my HD350 or the HD1/100/550 models that have oversaturated gamuts but no inbuilt CMS.

I'd be interested in comments regarding this product.

Inexpensive external CMS and gamma control with HDMI - Page 4 - AVS Forum

Further down the thread there is a link to register as a Beta Tester, for those interested.

[Gordon @ Convergent AV]

I'd expect that if Calman are involved it'll be a decent device

[KelvinS1965]

Just thought I'd bump this thread as I've recently returned my Beta unit for the full blown VideoEQ Pro model. I'm hopeful to receive the Pro version back within the next two weeks (courier and customs depending), but I've only had a brief play with the Beta version before returning it for the upgrade. There was a hardware change required to the Beta version to get the CMS working properly, so it had to be returned anyway.

I only had chance to try it wrt greyscale and gamma (using a slightly clumsy LUT calculator) due to the lack of working CMS on the Beta units. The full 'official' versions will come with Windows software that will allow real time adjustments (useful during CMS calibration in particular, but also for greyscale and gamma). No special calibration software is required to use this device (though only the foolhardy would attempt to adjust these controls by eye). I'm using Chromapure (from the forums power buy deal), though HFCR or Calman would also suffice: A later version of Calman will allow an interactive calibration using Calman to measured first, then adjust the VideoEQ's settings before a final 'after' measurement.

I've noticed today there is an advert at the top of most pages for this device. You don't get from the pictures how small it really is though. Think a couple of cassette tapes boxes stacked together or a packet of 'Strepsils' (the sore throat tablets). It will just about squeeze anywhere in the rack.

The Pro model comes with an IR socket, so could be put completely out of sight. The very important difference between the 'standard' model (which is simply called 'VideoEQ') is that there is no CMS on the cheaper model. Also there is only one custom memory for setting greyscale and gamma, compared to four on the Pro (including a CMS setting for each memory). This means you could have a HDMI splitter after the 'Pro and feed a TV and a projector (guess what I'm doing? ) and then have two memories for each device, using perhaps rec601 colour gamut for SD and rec709 for HD, or just different gamma settings perhaps...

It is also important to realise that neither model is a video processor in the traditional sense of the word: It doesn't upscale, colorspace convert, vertical stretch or even switch between sources (it only has 1 HDMI input and output). It will accept 8,10 or 12 bit signals in, but IIUIC the LUT section works in 10 bit, so it would seem the best option would be to feed it with a 10 bit signal (even though the source is 8 bit) to minimise the possibility of banding caused by rounding errors. In the light of this I've recently bought a DVDO Edge that will take my various 8 bit sources, upscale them and V-Stretch, etc as necessary before outputing in 10 bit to the VideoEQ Pro. I'm hoping I can cope without some of the masking and other controls I've become used to with my Lumagen HDQ as it will only pass 8 bit RGB.

I'll be posting back with my results using just my HD350 and then with the VideoEQ Pro connected, so I'll save the next post for this to be inserted. I'm hoping for results to match a JVC HD750 in terms of colour accuracy if not outright contrast (well I have to have something to aspire to ).

[KelvinS1965]

EDIT: First run calibration before and after VEQ greyscale, gamma and gamut full calibration report attached.

[Phil Hinton]

http://www.avforums.com/forums/repor...libration.html
http://www.avforums.com/forums/repor...-software.html

[Magentasnake]

Originally Posted by KelvinS1965

In the light of this I've recently bought a DVDO Edge that will take my various 8 bit sources, upscale them and V-Stretch, etc as necessary before outputing in 10 bit to the VideoEQ Pro. .

Hi Kevin,

The DVDO Edge and VideoHQ pro is an interesting combination. I am considering it myself so your comments are eagerly anticipated. Let us know as soon as you can.

[Jeroen1000]

Most interesting. So is this thing a fully featured CMS? I mean how does it compare to the other CMS devices out there (feature and quality wise)?
I haven't looked for it, but I hope the price is right.
However, does it support deep colour? Being a little future proof never hurts

Thanks for bringing this to people's attention KelvinS1965

[Avi]

Originally Posted by Jeroen1000

Most interesting. So is this thing a fully featured CMS? I mean how does it compare to the other CMS devices out there (feature and quality wise)?
I haven't looked for it, but I hope the price is right.
However, does it support deep colour? Being a little future proof never hurts

Thanks for bringing this to people's attention KelvinS1965

IIRC it has HDMI 1.3 receiver/transmitter. Bear in mind that if you're using something like the DVDO Edge it will truncate to 10bit at input and convert to YCbCr 4:2:2 for internal processing. It does support >10bit HDMI deep colour at output but this is interpolated.

AVI

[KelvinS1965]

My EAP unit seems to have got stuck in New York, on it's way back to Spectracal. I've gone for the VideoEQ Pro upgrade and I believe they are very close to shipping out the first of these, but until they receive my 'old' unit I guess I won't get it swopped out and returned.

As soon as I know more I'll post back. I've got the Edge setup so that it is outputing 10 bit (interpolated from the 8 bit input). This is more to do with giving the Video EQ finer graduation to play with, to avoid banding or posturisation effects.

@Jeroen1000: It is a full CMS, greyscale and gamma correction device. It will have a windows based option to set it up (plus later an automated version using Calman). It will have the same 18 colour adjustments as a JVC HD750/950 for example and I'd hope that the 11 point greyscale/gamma adjustment might also be a bit less frustrating to used than the JVC's one. As the software creates an LUT for the greyscale, it is possible also to manually edit the LUT (it's editable in the form of a text document) so that you could address all 1024 points it can control in the greyscale: Otherwise the software will extrapolate the values between the 11 points.

No one really knows yet how good the results will be other than the links that Phil Hinton put in his post futher up. I didn't have my EAP unit long enough to even try it with my projector due to delays in receiving it, then the hrardware update that was required. However I'm confindent enough (or is it just plain optimism?) to have paid the extra for the 'full' version rather than simply have my EAP updated.

[Jeroen1000]

AVI,
With the risk of sounding daft what does "IIRC" mean? My gues goes out to: if I recall correctly

Hmm, yes I've read that EDGE does 10-bit processing. However, does this change with the new beta firmware (which I have running)?
Anchor Bay » DVDO Edge » New EDGE Firmware v1.1

Or is that the interpolating you are talking about?

@KelvinS1965. I read the thread on avs. It's a whole new range of vocabularly. ATM, I don't have a clue what they were talking about other than is was about the specs. So I like the sounds of automated LOL

[Avi]

Originally Posted by Jeroen1000

AVI,
With the risk of sounding daft what does "IIRC" mean? My gues goes out to: if I recall correctly

Hmm, yes I've read that EDGE does 10-bit processing. However, does this change with the new beta firmware (which I have running)?
Anchor Bay » DVDO Edge » New EDGE Firmware v1.1

No it is a hardware limitation of ABT2010. It's been discussed at length in the Edge beta forum and confirmed by DVDO i.e. Any "real" data than is higher than 10 bit is truncated at input and all schemea are converted to YCbCr 4:2:2.

There is no higher than 10bit passthrough capablity. This doesn't prevent the processor using additional bit depth from it own processing at the output stage but this isn't the same.

AVI

[KelvinS1965]

So feeding the Edge with 8 bit and allowing it to output at 10 bit may not add any extra information (perhaps there is padding involved?) but it will simply give the VideoEQ Pro smaller graduations to work with.

EDIT: Just had it confirmed that my EAP unit was received last Friday. Sounds like I might be getting my replacement Pro unit back fairly soon (shipping dependant of course).

[Avi]

Originally Posted by KelvinS1965

So feeding the Edge with 8 bit and allowing it to output at 10 bit may not add any extra information (perhaps there is padding involved?) but it will simply give the VideoEQ Pro smaller graduations to work with.

EDIT: Just had it confirmed that my EAP unit was received last Friday. Sounds like I might be getting my replacement Pro unit back fairly soon (shipping dependant of course).

In theory the higher bit depth output maintains the numerical precision from internal calculations performed by the ABT.

The next question is what does the device receiving the signal from the Edge do to the incoming signal beyond the HDMI receiver and the same goes for the end display device i.e. can they make use of the extra precision or do they truncate/convert to a common scheme as the Edge itself does. Sometimes there appears to be too much focus on what HDMI can transmit/receive not what happens to the data beyond the HDMI interface.

AVI

[KelvinS1965]

As it's only a matter of chosing a seting in the Edge, I figure I may as well try this method to see if it helps with the Video EQ Pro (which should be coming to me soon BTW ). More based on one of the Beta tester's comments regarding posturisation and how it might be exacerbated by using 8 bits. In practice I never really noticed the effect using my Lumagen HDQ, so perhaps it is moot for me anyway.

At least I know that my EAP unit turned up safely in the end. I hope the turnaround won't be too long.

[Jeroen1000]

Can't wait for your findings. Although, I'll probably need a big book on calibration in order to figure out how to use it lol.

[Avi]

Originally Posted by KelvinS1965

More based on one of the Beta tester's comments regarding posturisation and how it might be exacerbated by using 8 bits. In practice I never really noticed the effect using my Lumagen HDQ, so perhaps it is moot for me anyway.

You may find the displays video processing is a significant factor in posterization type artfacts. Higher bit depth HDMI may not solve these artfacts on some products and source dithering may be the only option to reduce the problem.

AVI

[KelvinS1965]

The user in question had a CRT display, though I'm not sure if it was a projector or a TV (I think the former). I'll be happy with corrected colours and an easier way to adjust the gamma on my HD350 (I find the inbuilt controls very fiddly and counterintuative).

I've been scaning the beta forums incase there is any news on the Pro units, but nothing firm yet. I imagine there will be a lot of HD1/100/350/550 owners interested in this product, so I'll be sure to post my results in the forth post of this thread (if it's still available).

EDIT: Still no news of my unit, so I won't bump this thread further by adding another post. Their UK CS doesn't seem as good as I'd hoped.

[Jeroen1000]

I give up. I see what posterisation is. Is what you see here Image Posterization
Because of the loss of bith depth.

So, since all processing in EDGE is done internally in 16-bits, likewise for the videoEQ, posterisation happens in the display (As Avi says). What is the display possibly doing to mess things up? It just has to convert to RGB and be done with it (or in my case do nothing as I send it RGB).

[Avi]

Originally Posted by Jeroen1000

So, since all processing in EDGE is done internally in 16-bits, likewise for the videoEQ, posterisation happens in the display (As Avi says). What is the display possibly doing to mess things up? It just has to convert to RGB and be done with it (or in my case do nothing as I send it RGB).

Who confirmed the ABT2010 was 16bit precision ?

AVI

[Jeroen1000]

I could swear it got it from Larry. Let me check my mailbox here. Avi, it appears to be 10-bit. I must have crossed a wire

[JoshA]

Originally Posted by Avi

Who confirmed the ABT2010 was 16bit precision ?

I've never heard that before...

[Avi]

Originally Posted by JoshA

I've never heard that before...

Hi Josh

I don't recall ever seeing such as claim from ABT/DVDO. I guess you would be well placed to know..

AVI

[Jeroen1000]

I corrected my post guys. It's NOT 16-bit.

[RICKYJ]

Originally Posted by John_Anderson

Still waiting with baited breathh Kelvin. ... any news?

He has not received his unit yet

[latepmas]

There are some people on AVS who have reiceved them and used one on a Kuro with nice results

[John_Anderson]

Originally Posted by latepmas

There are some people on AVS who have reiceved them and used one on a Kuro with nice results

Interesting, are they using the Pro version? In my experience the colour gamut on the Kuros is OK and does not need CMS. The major issue with the Kuro is its handling of fast movement. However I will check out AVS. Thanks for the info.

[latepmas]

Yes, he's used the pro version to pull in the saturations, from colour space 1 by the look of it, and adjusted the luminances, all dE76 < 3

[KelvinS1965]

Originally Posted by latepmas

There are some people on AVS who have reiceved them and used one on a Kuro with nice results

There are also some people on AVS who ordered them after I did and who weren't even on the EAP who have received them...hence my reluctance to bump this thread.

It seems that they aren't so concerned with us in the UK: Despite having paid for the upgraded item about a month ago and the initial EAP unit 2 1/2 months ago I currently have not even a notice of delivery of the Pro. I really hope it lives up to the hype.

[John_Anderson]

Hi,
I have read some of the posts on AVSforum.com and they are using them with the TV Kuros not the Elites.

[latepmas]

Has there been any further development of the IDT HQV Vida processor or its use in the "Matchbox", will this also have the 6 axis cms included?