[StooMonster]

Was looking at the Lumagen website, and saw the front page had changed and a third product was added: Lumagen XS

Lumagen Radiance XS

Gordon, would you like to tell us more?

StooMonster

[Gordon @ Convergent AV]

Well..it looks like this

it's essentially the same performance as an XD/XE with hdmi1.3 like XE but without the upgradeable VXP board. ie the main pcb is an all in one circuit. So if they decide to use a new VXP or something else sub processor then only the XD/XE will be able to benefit from that.

I am still waiting on confirmation on what they cost to me will be and what the US retail will be so no idea on price (well I have an idea but Im not saying).

if you look at the lumagen firmare update pages you'll see that it shares same feature additions and bug fixes as it's basically the same except for the hardware architecture.
For those wanting a good deal there is still the trade in programme against XD's!

[sijones]

I may have been tempted to buy the XS (depending on price) but with only 4 HDMI inputs it is insufficient for my requirements.

Gordon, Do you know if the HDMI outputs carry both video & audio?

Kind regards,

Steve

[Gordon @ Convergent AV]

I am unsure whether it will carry audio and video on both outputs. Originally the plan was only one video and other just audio but then they wondered about two with video and only one with audio as well....It's all breaking news to me...on the 4 hdmi front...They had to cut costs somewhere and due to the fact the radiance hdmi's are always on unlike all the other scalers out there it adds considerably to cost....and there is always the XD if you need more...or you an use the clever sub memory structure and multiple memories per input to route some sources through amp and have them share the same physical input on scaler but still have distinct calibrated settings

[Liam @ Prog AV]

Originally Posted by sijones

I may have been tempted to buy the XS (depending on price) but with only 4 HDMI inputs it is insufficient for my requirements.

Gordon, Do you know if the HDMI outputs carry both video & audio?

Kind regards,

Steve

Don't want much eh LOL!! I think the XS represents a good match to the DVDO VP50Pro in connectivity, and then wipes the floor with it in terms of picture quality. I too am now very confused with the 2 HDMI out state though, the Lumagen site says 2 HDMI video outputs so I'm thinking maybe only one carries audio where before we thought it was 1 video+audio, 1 audio.

[Gordon @ Convergent AV]

Originally Posted by Liam @ Prog AV

the Lumagen site says 2 HDMI video outputs so I'm thinking maybe only one carries audio where before we thought it was 1 video+audio, 1 audio.

Well I guess that answers the question. It'll be two with video and one only with audio......

[Liam @ Prog AV]

Key Features:
-10 Video inputs (4xHDMI 1.3), 2xHDMI 1.3 video outputs
-11 audio inputs (HDMI inputs are Dolby TrueHD/DTS-HD capable), 1 coax audio output
-10 bit processing
-Proprietary Lumagen "no-ring" scaling
-Per-pixel SD/HD video deinterlacing
-Primary and secondary gamut correction
-Extensive support for anamorphic lenses
-Adaptive diagonal filtering
-MPEG mosquito and block artifact reduction
-Temporal noise reduction for SD/HD sources
-2:2,3:2,3:3 pulldown for SD/HD film sources
-Output resolution from 480p to 1080p, plus 1080i


Input configurability:
- Inputs 1-4 are HDMI 1.3 and can be used with HDMI or DVI sources
- Inputs 5-6 are SVideo (NTSC or PAL) Component (HD/SD)
- Inputs 7-8 are Component (HD/SD)
- Inputs 9-10 are Composite (NTSC or PAL)
- one rgbhv (uses 1 component input and 2 composite inputs)
- up to 2 scart (RGB+composite sync) inputs (uses 1 component and 1 composite input)

[TopMeTom]

I suppose this will priced around 2k...ish?

I don't have that sort of money, need a new plasma although it does look nice...

[Liam @ Prog AV]

It'll easily be over £2,500 I reckon. Basically the power of the 4 grand RadianceXE in a similar form to the £2,300 VP50Pro. Radiance is not for the feint of heart (or budget!), the video processing and calibration toolset in the Radiance line plus the sheer customisability puts it firmly at the top end of the market. The best deal at the moment is the trade-in on the RadianceXD that is about the cheapest you will get a full size Radiance for this side of 2010 LOL!!!!! If you're looking at £2k budget, which is still hardly a small amount of money I must admit, the best solution you will get is DVDO with it's noisy scaling and lack of decent CMS and gamma tracking tools

[mikelj]

Originally Posted by Liam @ Prog AV

It'll easily be over £2,500 I reckon. Basically the power of the 4 grand RadianceXE in a similar form to the £2,300 VP50Pro. Radiance is not for the feint of heart (or budget!), the video processing and calibration toolset in the Radiance line plus the sheer customisability puts it firmly at the top end of the market. The best deal at the moment is the trade-in on the RadianceXD that is about the cheapest you will get a full size Radiance for this side of 2010 LOL!!!!! If you're looking at £2k budget, which is still hardly a small amount of money I must admit, the best solution you will get is DVDO with it's noisy scaling and lack of decent CMS and gamma tracking tools

I must admit, I was thinking around the £2.5k region myself, as there seems gap in Lumagen's product pricing around this point (but that was before the last 2 prices rises, so I'm not sure that's valid anymore!).

If the XS is using the same firmware as the XD/XE, then there's not really any firmware development costs for the XS; plus if the actual components used are the same, but on a single board, then the hardware development costs shouldn't be as high compared to if they were starting from scratch. If Lumagen could afford to sell the XS for around this price, they'd murder the competition!

[eiren]

I think it's going to be way overpriced at over 2.5K, especially with what's happening elsewhere in the video processing world.

Don't get me wrong, the Lumagen scaling is the current best... but it's not £1300 better.

[Gordon @ Convergent AV]

Originally Posted by eiren

Don't get me wrong, the Lumagen scaling is the current best... but it's not £1300 better.

I think actually what you are saying here is that it's not £1300 better to you.

For those seeking absolute fidelity to the original artists intent with BD, DVD and video content then there is really only one choice and the good news is that the cost of entry to that level of performance may be coming down.

[Avi]

Originally Posted by eiren

I think it's going to be way overpriced at over 2.5K, especially with what's happening elsewhere in the video processing world.

Don't get me wrong, the Lumagen scaling is the current best... but it's not £1300 better.

It really depends on what features/functions are important and this will vary from user to user. If for example you have a display with limited internal gamut or greyscale calibration capability the Lumagen can help. Other companies such as DVDO are introducing cheaper new products but if you need the features mentioned above they offer no benefits. So in that respect it may be well worth £1300 for some people for those features alone.

I've had the pleasure of using both Lumagen and DVDO products and they are very different.

AVI

[Liam @ Prog AV]

I sell a number of Edges and will likely do so with this new Duo too, not as expensive as a Radiance and an obvious improvement in deinterlacing plus a prep feature to improve Sky HD SD material. But I don't consider this the same kind of product as a Lumagen which to me is a complete video management system rather than a more simple switch with deinterlacing and scaling abilities. Putting it another way, if a box existed which gives you an accurate primary and secondary colour management system, 11 point parametric greyscale adjustment, advanced tools for adjusting colour space and levels between sources, chroma shift, output dithering, genlock, you could probably sell that box for more than £1,300 on it's own. This still doesn't cover the kind of features the Radiance has inside it and the support you get from them, if you have a look down the list of updates they have put on it in the last couple of months it gives you an idea of what you are buying into:

Lumagen

[eiren]

Oh I'm fully aware of how good it is... I just still think it's overpriced, which is obviously my own opinion and the reason I've held off getting one (I'm always severely tempted as most of you know ).

I've seen one in action a few times and don't think it's as good as the price would indicate... and I would still need a DVDO product to get optimum Sky HD visual quality.

I'm going to wait and see how other things develop before I make a final decision.

[Avi]

Originally Posted by eiren

I've seen one in action a few times and don't think it's as good as the price would indicate... and I would still need a DVDO product to get optimum Sky HD visual quality.

Yes PReP is very useful and it would be great for me if Lumagen had a similar feature. If it was a feature that could be added I could remove the DVDO as I only use with the Thomson SkyHD. Interesting the I've also found the Oppo 83 appears to provide a better implementation of the ABT2010 deinterlacing options for PAL DVD than the Edge.

AVI

[Liam @ Prog AV]

Another vote here for wishing Lumagen had a prep like feature too.

[mikelj]

Originally Posted by Avi

Yes PReP is very useful and it would be great for me if Lumagen had a similar feature. If it was a feature that could be added I could remove the DVDO as I only use with the Thomson SkyHD. Interesting the I've also found the Oppo 83 appears to provide a better implementation of the ABT2010 deinterlacing options for PAL DVD than the Edge.

AVI

Appologies for the OT; could you clarify why you feel the 83 is superior with PAL than the EDGE. Is it simply because of the availability of the 2:2 Odd/Even modes on the 83, or is Auto implemented better?

[Avi]

Originally Posted by mikelj

Appologies for the OT; could you clarify why you feel the 83 is superior with PAL than the EDGE. Is it simply because of the availability of the 2:2 Odd/Even modes on the 83, or is Auto implemented better?

The additional forced options as auto appears the same. It isn't possible to avoid some artefacts using either of the Edge's cadence modes (auto/film). Whilst not ideal the forced modes on the Oppo at least provides a solution.

AVI

[TheDoctor]

I am currently running a Dreambox DM800 HD satellite receiver (with motorised dish) via the XS and the results are fantastic - I've never seen Sky look so good.

The DM800 HD has a DVI output (that carries audio too) which automatically outputs SD at 576i and HD at 1080i. You also get the same function from its component output, even when both are running at the same time.

This clever little device also allows you to switch off its deinterlacer (on, auto and off). I leave it at 'off' to ensure the Radiance gets a clean signal.

No need for prep - my SkyHD box has become redundant because SD from the DM800 completely outclasses the feed from the SkyHD box (I have the original Thomson, Pace and Samsung models) .

As a combination, the DM800 + Radiance works flawlessly with fast switching between SD and HD broadcasts.

The DM800's DVI output is HDCP-free, and you can record on an internal, usb or esata hard drive in .TS format, which makes it easy to archive and playback on PCs or covert to other formats for burning to disc.

[eiren]

Can you watch all Sky content via the Dreambox, or only the stuff that's not encoded?

[Avi]

Originally Posted by TheDoctor

I am currently running a Dreambox DM800 HD satellite receiver (with motorised dish) via the XS and the results are fantastic - I've never seen Sky look so good.

The DM800 HD has a DVI output (that carries audio too) which automatically outputs SD at 576i and HD at 1080i. You also get the same function from its component output, even when both are running at the same time.

This clever little device also allows you to switch off its deinterlacer (on, auto and off). I leave it at 'off' to ensure the Radiance gets a clean signal.

No need for prep - my SkyHD box has become redundant because SD from the DM800 completely outclasses the feed from the SkyHD box (I have the original Thomson, Pace and Samsung models) .

As a combination, the DM800 + Radiance works flawlessly with fast switching between SD and HD broadcasts.

The DM800's DVI output is HDCP-free, and you can record on an internal, usb or esata hard drive in .TS format, which makes it easy to archive and playback on PCs or covert to other formats for burning to disc.

That's sounds like an interesting solution. I guess the big questions for me is how complex is setting up the box to use with an existing SkyHD card and is this a solution that is easy to setup as just a replacement to the SkyHD box ?

AVI

[TheDoctor]

Hi eiren

With a DM800 HD you can watch every SD and HD satellite channel available in Europe, if you wanted to - with a decent motorised setup.

Or you can simply keep your existing setup and replace your SkyHD box with a DM800 - and put your Sky viewing card into your DM800 to get access to all the channels you subscribe to.

The DM800 only has a single tuner, therefore you can only record the channel it's on.

There is the DM8000 (twin tuner) which is the ultimate sat receiver but the price is around £900

I would also advise doing some research on Linux-based sat receivers - it's a steep learning curve (which I'm still on). The DM800 is open-source, so you have lots of groups designing and producing their own software, plugins, epgs, dreambox media players for all file types, even games etc. It's only the size of a dvd case, but the potential of this little box is quite amazing.

[TheDoctor]

Originally Posted by Avi

That's sounds like an interesting solution. I guess the big questions for me is how complex is setting up the box to use with an existing SkyHD card and is this a solution that is easy to setup as just a replacement to the SkyHD box ?

AVI

I had mine pre-setup by the installer who is actually a member of the forum (1install) and currently run it alongside my fixed SkyHD setup. But with the latest images for this box, the white Sky viewing card slots straight in and is ready to go.

[Liam @ Prog AV]

There is an element of not having a Sky EPG, only having one tuner, not having ANY kind of interactive content (multi-screen sport, red button etc). You also have to make sure there are no updates to the cards while yours is in the Dreambox or you lose the update and have to ask Sky to send you a new one (and explain why!).

Looks like a great toy for European satellite and plug ins but I still can't see it being a replacement for a Sky HD box for anyone but the most fan-boy types who don't mind putting up with all that for decent SD picture. Might as well just get an Edge.

[TheDoctor]

Hi Liam

There is a Sky epg - it just looks different. You also get all the interactive (red button) content too but they are listed as separate channels e.g. Sky Sports active 1, 2, 3, 4, etc.

The only solution to the single tuner is to get the DM8000 You can put your card back into the Sky box at night to get updates and Anytime.

Leave one LNB feed going to SkyHD box and the other going to the Dreambox.

[Liam @ Prog AV]

It's not really the kind of solution I would recommend to customers unless they fully wanted to take on the job of keeping this thing up-to-date. I don't like the idea of losing out the functionality of interactive, even swapping over to the channel isn't as fluent as having the OSD for multi-channel football games or the F1 and swapping between them, you also won't get the bar at the bottom with goal-flashes etc. There's also the ease of changing audio streams (different commentary for example) or does that still work just using an audio button? Does it work with digital text? I'm sorely tempted just for another toy, but I can't see it really being a justifiable Sky HD replacement. Haven't even looked at PVR functions like series link and the like although I would think any decent enough EPG should be able to handle this.

[TheDoctor]

True, this is only a viable option for someone who will take the time to research, be confident enough to explore the possibilities and become familiar with linux based systems. Not really a toy for someone who wants to plug it in and go.

As for the football, the interactive selection of Premiership games you get on Football First on Saturday nights are available to watch live at 3pm on Saturdays via Sky Italia - and a press of the audio button gives you the English Sky commentary

Live 3pm football on Saturdays was the main reason I got it.

[TheDoctor]

Back to topic, I'd like to say thanks to Liam for supplying the Radiance XS. I'm still learning my way round the menus and features but I have to say that it is a definite improvement on my CII - video quality and features wise.

On the CII, when you press the info button, it tells you whether the incoming signal is video, film or a messy combination of both - is there a way to get such information on the Radiance?

[Liam @ Prog AV]

There was a key combination on the Vision range called live flags. I think it was MENU 0 9 1 8 not sure if this might still work here. It just gives you a one-character text box in the bottom right corner with F, V, G or X if I remember.