[Neophasis]

These techniques that Sony Bravia and Panasonic uses, is it achievable with a Lumagen Vision HDP as well?

[Avi]

Originally Posted by Neophasis

These techniques that Sony Bravia and Panasonic uses, is it achievable with a Lumagen Vision HDP as well?

No it's a function of panel refresh itself not a source pre the display. There are transmission standards to consider and physical limitations of the HDMI interface that wouldn't support 1080p at anything near 200hz.

AVI

[LD_OUT]

They are actually Motion Interpolators, by interpolating more frames inbetween the originals, thus providing an ultra smooth video look.

[Avi]

Originally Posted by LD_OUT

They are actually Motion Interpolators, by interpolating more frames inbetween the originals, thus providing an ultra smooth video look.

Sony also use black frame insertion on some products which isn't motion interpolation but is designed to break the sample and hold affect that causes some people to experience motion blur/smear on displays that use sample and hold drive. AFAIK these techs are limited to how the panel itself refreshes and isn't a feature available in a video processor etc.

AVI

[mikelj]

The Panasonic 600Hz isn't motion interpolation, from my (limited) understanding, its more down to how plasma technology works and is the method employed to achieve more colours. It's nothing new, plasmas have been employing this method for ages (ever?), it's just the Panasonic marketing department playing numbers game imo.

[Avi]

Originally Posted by mikelj

The Panasonic 600Hz isn't motion interpolation, from my (limited) understanding, its more down to how plasma technology works and is the method employed to achieve more colours. It's nothing new, plasmas have been employing this method for ages (ever?), it's just the Panasonic marketing department playing numbers game imo.

"VIERA NeoPDP - Sharper Motion with 600Hz

To ensure the picture quality of sports events, action films and gaming is smooth and judder-free, VIERA NeoPDP employs 600Hz Sub-field Drive with Intelligent Frame Creation Pro. This advanced internal processor creates 600 sub-fields from the initial signal input, then reproduces 12 sub-fields to display a single frame. By using an intelligent algorithm based on motion detection, the best motion flow is created – delivering the sharpest moving pictures with full detail."

Products - Viera Flat Screen Televisions - Overview - VIERA | 600Hz NeoPDP - UK & Ireland

AVI

[Neophasis]

So a scaler of better quality is surpassed today by these new integrated processing in the panel?

If we take a commercial plasma like Panasonic TH-50PF11 with a Lumagen HDQ or even Iscan VP50 and compare that with their consumer model TX-P50V10 with 600Hz and all bells and whistles.

Who would deliver a greater picture? the V10?

That is the question i have been asking myself many times and i am really confused.

[Gordon @ Convergent AV]

The actual scaling, de-interlacing, gamma and colour capability in a Lumagen Radiance is beyond that of any display. The issue is whether you find the effects of different display technologies more annoying than artefacts from any of the above. All displays work by optical illusion. Some folk see through these illusions and some don't That's why some folk like lcd, some like plasma...some like Pioneer plasma and others like Panasonic. It is never simple

[Neophasis]

I am just wondering if i shall buy the Panasonic TH-50PF10 and run it together with my Lumagen or buy the TX-P50V10

Will i get better picture with the PF10 and Lumagen i have?

[Gordon @ Convergent AV]

I'd be a PF10 and HDQ guy myself...or perhaps even an XD

[mikelj]

Originally Posted by Avi

"VIERA NeoPDP - Sharper Motion with 600Hz

To ensure the picture quality of sports events, action films and gaming is smooth and judder-free, VIERA NeoPDP employs 600Hz Sub-field Drive with Intelligent Frame Creation Pro. This advanced internal processor creates 600 sub-fields from the initial signal input, then reproduces 12 sub-fields to display a single frame. By using an intelligent algorithm based on motion detection, the best motion flow is created – delivering the sharpest moving pictures with full detail."

Products - Viera Flat Screen Televisions - Overview - VIERA | 600Hz NeoPDP - UK & Ireland

AVI

What I meant was that the 600Hz and motion interpolation are two different entities. All plasmas have sub-field drives in the region of 100's Hz to enable a greater graduation of colour (or a least fool our senses into percieving a greater range of colours) and help maintain resolution with motion (I though). I guess the frame interpolation is then used to compliment this.

[Avi]

Originally Posted by mikelj

What I meant was that the 600Hz and motion interpolation are two different entities. All plasmas have sub-field drives in the region of 100's Hz to enable a greater graduation of colour (or a least fool our senses into percieving a greater range of colours) and help maintain resolution with motion (I though). I guess the frame interpolation is then used to compliment this.

Maybe I'm reading it wrong. But my interpretation is that for each frame from say a 50hz input each 1/50th frame is then further broken down in 12 sub fields as they appear to call them. The image in each of these in sub fields is then optimized using motion detection processing. Speed all this up and 1 seconds of 50hz input is displayed at 600hz i.e. 50*12=600hz with motion interpolated sub fields. So to me 600hz does appear to refer to motion interpolation.

AVI

[mikelj]

Originally Posted by Avi

Maybe I'm reading it wrong. But my interpretation is that for each frame from say a 50hz input each 1/50th frame is then further broken down in 12 sub fields as they appear to call them. The image in each of these in sub fields is then optimized using motion detection processing. Speed all this up and 1 seconds of 50hz input is displayed at 600hz i.e. 50*12=600hz with motion interpolated sub fields. So to me 600hz does appear to refer to motion interpolation.

AVI

Yes, I see your point. I think I was being a bit pedantic, in that if motion interpolation wasn't being employed, I suspect that a 600Hz sub-field drive would still be used (over a lower rate), since the screen would be capable of producing a greater colour graduation.

[choddo2006]

Originally Posted by Neophasis

So a scaler of better quality is surpassed today by these new integrated processing in the panel?

If we take a commercial plasma like Panasonic TH-50PF11 with a Lumagen HDQ or even Iscan VP50 and compare that with their consumer model TX-P50V10 with 600Hz and all bells and whistles.

Who would deliver a greater picture? the V10?

I'd bet a quid not.

Avi - that 600Hz blurb from the Panasonic site is, imho, total marketing bs and the technical truth of the matter is what mikelj says.

colours flashing on & off (at up to 12 per frame) to produce more shades.

[Avi]

Originally Posted by choddo2006

Avi - that 600Hz blurb from the Panasonic site is, imho, total marketing bs and the technical truth of the matter is what mikelj says.

I've no idea but if you know this for a fact then I guess that's the answer.

How does the motion interpolation on the Panasonic work or are you of the opinion it doesn't perform motion interpolation ?

AVI

[choddo2006]

I think it does it like any TV - compares two fields & produces an intermediate version.

I can't see how analysis of "subfields" can help - since every subfield would be the same image.

[Avi]

Originally Posted by choddo2006

I think it does it like any TV - compares two fields & produces an intermediate version.

I can't see how analysis of "subfields" can help - since every subfield would be the same image.

The extract from Panny is below. Reading it again it claims 600 sub-fields (not sure what that is) is created from the initial input signal. I guess that could be read as there is more than one interpolated frame being created. The analysis is between the original fields/frames I guess and the 12 sub-fields are the product of that analysis.

"This advanced internal processor creates 600 sub-fields from the initial signal input, then reproduces 12 sub-fields to display a single frame. By using an intelligent algorithm based on motion detection, the best motion flow is created – delivering the sharpest moving pictures with full detail"

AVI

[Liam @ Prog AV]

Sub field processing of that level has existed on panasonic pro panels for years ad is how the develop various shades of grey. It's total BS to try turn it into a 600Hz figure and suggest it as a refresh rate in the way others use a refresh rate figure. Check out the brochures for the 7 series and 8 series pro panels when they first started using 12 sub-fields:

http://www.progressive-av.com/produc...H-7Series1.pdf

http://www.progressive-av.com/produc...s_brochure.pdf

[Avi]

Originally Posted by Liam @ Prog AV

Sub field processing of that level has existed on panasonic pro panels for years ad is how the develop various shades of grey. It's total BS to try turn it into a 600Hz figure and suggest it as a refresh rate in the way others use a refresh rate figure. Check out the brochures for the 7 series and 8 series pro panels when they first started using 12 sub-fields:

http://www.progressive-av.com/produc...H-7Series1.pdf

http://www.progressive-av.com/produc...s_brochure.pdf

I had a quick can of those but I'm not sure what I'm looking for.

Out of curiosity it would be good to have a factual explanation of how the Panny motion interpolation works and what is the actual interpolated refresh rate adopted.

AVI

[Liam @ Prog AV]

There is no motion processing which is kinda what Im getting it. With the 7 series each field due for display is broken down into x subfields all of which are the same image at the same point in time. It is drawn up of successively brighter and brighter discharges to enable the screen to produce the finer gradation details using weaker plasma discharges. The earlier weaker charges draw the detail deeper down the greyscale, then the stronger discharges blast out the higher brightness details which as the theory goes means for all that gradation detail Panasonic are famed for. So technically the screen might refresh 600 times a second, but it is doing it for a totally different reason than Panasonic are trying to suggest. I can't find precise details of how each different generation and model did it, I remember it only being on SD panels to begin with, and with one model I remember PAL only got 7 sub-fields because it was also frame doubling to 100Hz when NTSC was getting 14 sub-fields and being displayed at 60Hz.

The Panasonic site has changed since I last looked this up and has taken out what limited technical information that there was on there. Now it just says we process some stuff and then display it and you get a smoother picture. Smoother gradients perhaps but it doesn't explicitly say each sub-field is also analyzed and interpolated for motion. Only that at some other point a 50Hz signal is motion interpolated to a 100Hz one (which doesn't add up to the 12 subfields unless they are saying the original field is interpolated into two unique fields to gain 100Hz of which each are given only six sub-field passes???). It all appears rather contradictory to me.

[choddo2006]

Yes

It's foetid horse product.

[Avi]

There's lies, damn lies and AV marketing speak

AVI

[-Matt-]

I know I am digging up an old thread but I find this quite an interesting topic...

In the previous discussion (earlier in this thread) there seems to be some confusion between:

600Hz sub-field drive.

and

Intelligent frame creation (IFC).


I think it is important to emphasise that these are two completely separate things. This confusion no doubt arises from the lack of clarity in Panasonic's marketing documents.

Firstly 600Hz sub-field drive is basically not that new. As discussed above, it relates to the way that plasmas render colours as a rapid sequence of discharge pulses of different length. Liam gave a very nice explanation of this above. 600Hz (sub-fields) equates to 10 sub-fields @ 60Hz (frames).

Secondly IFC is motion interpolation. The change in the image between two frames is interpolated to produce 10 sub-fields.


The point is that both of these things happen at the same time. Imagine that the screen is rendering a circle that moves left to right across the screen:

If IFC is off then the 10 sub-field pulses all occur in the same place on the left. All of the sub-field pulses from the second frame occur on the right.

If IFC is on then the circle will appear to move in 10 steps from left to right during frame 1.


I notice a visible improvement in motion on video sources with IFC ON. This is particularly apparent on things like horizontal scrolling news tickers (in the absence of deinterlacing artefacts).

So I do not agree that 600Hz and IFC are totally marketing BS.

[mikelj]

Originally Posted by -Matt-

I know I am digging up an old thread but I find this quite an interesting topic...

In the previous discussion (earlier in this thread) there seems to be some confusion between:

600Hz sub-field drive.

and

Intelligent frame creation (IFC).


I think it is important to emphasise that these are two completely separate things. This confusion no doubt arises from the lack of clarity in Panasonic's marketing documents.

Firstly 600Hz sub-field drive is basically not that new. As discussed above, it relates to the way that plasmas render colours as a rapid sequence of discharge pulses of different length. Liam gave a very nice explanation of this above. 600Hz (sub-fields) equates to 10 sub-fields @ 60Hz (frames).

Secondly IFC is motion interpolation. The change in the image between two frames is interpolated to produce 10 sub-fields.


The point is that both of these things happen at the same time. Imagine that the screen is rendering a circle that moves left to right across the screen:

If IFC is off then the 10 sub-field pulses all occur in the same place on the left. All of the sub-field pulses from the second frame occur on the right.

If IFC is on then the circle will appear to move in 10 steps from left to right during frame 1.


I notice a visible improvement in motion on video sources with IFC ON. This is particularly apparent on things like horizontal scrolling news tickers (in the absence of deinterlacing artefacts).

So I do not agree that 600Hz and IFC are totally marketing BS.

If I understand the example you gave, you are effectively stating that a whole frame is rendered in the first subfield, with each of the remaining 9 subfields rendering an entire interpolated frame.

I'm not sure that would be correct, surely the 10 subfields (sticking to the 60Hz refresh rate example) are required per redered frame to enable all possible graduations of colour to be reproduced.

[-Matt-]

No you didn't quite get it...

Suppose that in order to render the circle in the correct colour the sequence of pulses (considering the red channel only) is as follows:

1 1 1 1 0 1 0 1 0 1

With 1 = on, 0 = off.

In the diagram below red = on, black = off. Time in sub-fields is represented on the vertical axis and position on screen is shown on the horizontal axis.

Obviously, when the screen is refreshing sub-fields at 600Hz objects moving across the screen are unlikely to move so fast that the sub-field images do not overlap to some extent. The speed of object movement is drastically exaggerated in the above figure in order to make the process clearer.


I should also state that the above is my estimate of how IFC works. In reality Panasonic may have employed an even cleverer form of dithering to calculate the sub-fields. Or, I could be totally wrong. However, I can see the improvement with IFC on, and therefore do not dismiss this as total marketing BS.

[mikelj]

No, I did understand (I think!), I just didn't agree. Isn't you're example asumming that it only takes one subfield to render the correct colour?

Edit: I know your example states the set of pules to render a colour, but the "object" that is being rendered is not in the same position for each sub-field - I still believe that it may require all 10 subfields to produce a particular colour.

[-Matt-]

It seems like you still didn't get it...

I am saying that it takes ten sub-fields to correctly render the colours.

The sequence for the red channel above is:

1 1 1 1 0 1 0 1 0 1

For the sake of the explaination let us suppose that we have the same sequence for the green and blue channels. (This means the circle will be grey).


The point that I think you are missing can be explained as follows:

Let us suppose that the circle to be rendered is 100 pixels in diameter and that between frame 1 and frame 2 the circle has to move 10 pixels to the right.

In the scheme described above the centre of the circle (a region with 80 pixel diameter) will be rendered with exactly the correct colour. However there will be a fringe of 10 pixels around the circle that are rendered as a blend between the circle colour and the background colour. This contributes to the motion smoothing effect.

[mikelj]

Except that from what I understand of the sub-drive, a sub-pixel can only be switched on, not on and off. So if a sub-pixel is to be energised for 1/10 off the sub-drive cycle, it would have to be done on the 9/10 cycle.

Edit: Forget that, I see what you're saying. You confused me with the notation you used describing the sequence of pulses - you're actually taking about the sequence of pulses for ten pixels (or at least sub-pixels in ten different pixels), or rather the pulse to switch each of the different pixels on, when required.

[-Matt-]

Originally Posted by mikelj

Except that from what I understand of the sub-drive, a sub-pixel can only be switched on, not on and off. So if a sub-pixel is to be energised for 1/10 off the sub-drive cycle, it would have to be done on the 9/10 cycle.

Edit: Forget that, I see what you're saying. You confused me with the notation you used describing the sequence of pulses - you're actually taking about the sequence of pulses for ten pixels (or at least sub-pixels in ten different pixels), or rather the pulse to switch each of the different pixels on, when required.

Well I actually thought that the pixels could be turned on and off during the frame. (That individual pixels could be illuminated for a single sub-field if required). I believe this is why they refer to 600Hz sub-field drive.

As Liam described above, I thought that the discharge intensity increased for each successive sub-fields (within the frame). In this way you can render many more shades of gradation than you could if the pixels could only be turned on once (at a pre-set time) during the frame. You can for example combine several weak discharges near to the start of the frame with one or two stronger ones at the end to get exactly the right level of colour. This was what I was trying to show when I said that the sequence of pulses was 1 1 1 1 0 1 0 1 0 1.

EDIT: Having the brighter discharges at the start of the frame might actually make more sense, I'm not exactly sure of the implementation.

Different plasma manufacturers probably use different schemes, so there could be some that use the technique you describe. However it is difficult to see how Panasonic could get 6144 effective levels of gradation using the scheme you describe:

If the frame is divided into 10 sub-fields (as described in Panasonic documentation) and the pixels can only be turned on once during the frame (as you suggest). Then this would only provide for 11 levels of gradation!

If the pixels can be turned on and off during the frame (but each discharge has the same intensity) then we have 2^10 levels of gradation 1024. This still doesn't get us to Panasonics claimed figure of 6144 levels. In order to get more levels of gradation the discharges in each sub-field have to be of different intensity.

[mikelj]

Originally Posted by -Matt-

In order to get more levels of gradation the discharges in each sub-field have to be of different intensity.

That was my understanding of Panasonics implementation.

What do you think of IFC, btw. I've see the Pioneers frame interpolation mode (imo best not used). Considering Panny's processing is not the best - they have no sort of cadence detection (although I think the video processing is pretty good), I do wonder whether this is also best not used.