[LD_OUT]

As the title suggests and hoping this is the right place to post this, we all know that the hardware on a laserdisc player is what counts to getting the best image quality of a composite made laserdisc, it is therefore my quest now (and long ago before i went on hiatus) to obtain the purist video image quality that i can get off a laserdisc.

i would also indeed like help on this, regarding if using any sort of analogue cable will still reduce the quality in/output of any source to a receiver. I also am aware laserdiscs player with a different kind of red laser will help improve picture quality by significantly reducing crosstalk and picture-noise levels.

This is all naturally done by cleaning the path for the signal to come out faithful as it was authored, however i am not after video processing that the players can offer to improve the image, like Noise Reduction processing, picture modes or and etc. (help me name a few?) because i believe the technology we have today is far superior than what it can offer in the machines and that even filters avilable today (like Avisynth) can provide a much more adequete job, thus trying to scrap every single data or detail off the laserdisc itself is vital to me.

i would really appreciate it if anyone here can help me on this matter, otherwise it would be great if someone did come up with creating our own laserdisc player with a A/D converter and capture the video directly to digital (either uncompressed or lossless) retaining all details and data.

i hope u can understand my ethusiasm on how great this will be and i hope to hear back from you all too!

[choddo2006]

I'd have to question how great it would be. It's not like laserdisc is the vinyl of the movie world, more like the wax cylinder

Now with a slightly more constructive cheapeau on ... this thread on "the other place" is well worth a read;
High(ish)-end Laserdisc players for digital displays? - AVS Forum

[eiren]

I am going to start storing my Blu-rays in Laserdisc packaging. They're so much nicer than the rubbish tiny Blu cases, but you also get the AV quality

[LD_OUT]

ahh the AVSForum, i am a member of that as well and havent been in their for ages, i asked a similar question long ago but didnt get much out of it OR want expecting the answers i am wanting.

anyways, i never knew the laserdisc players also had TBC very much like a VHS player would, or maybe i have just forgotten, anyways thats something definately to put on the list, an internal TBC :D

also i was a huge fan of the comb filter in these laserdisc players, however i started to get abit confused wheather it is an actual filter or something that is electroniaclly done when using S-Video because of the splut of signal which i assumed helped and helped picture quality, thus the comb filter.

keeping on and off topic abit, hasnt anyone really thought of custom building a laserdisc player? or modifying one heavily to ones needs? like slapping in a A/D converter chip or on a board where we can wire the composite signal to and output it to either firewire or HDMI?

[eiren]

I still have a lot of old Laserdiscs, but the only reason I keep them is because of the artwork/packaging.

The visual quality is not even as good as an anamorphic DVD, so not sure anyone would invest time trying to squeeze visual performance out of each disc... as the disc contents were never that great in terms of quality anyhow. The discs were the limiting factor, not the hardware.

Is there any reason why you want to stick with Laserdiscs, rather than upgrading to better quality HD versions of the films?

You're never going to get a stellar picture from one I'm afraid.

[LD_OUT]

eiren, i am aware that the visual quality as u said is not as good as an anamorphic dvd, haha there's really no need to tell me because the standards already explains themselves :D However im pretty sure we both know that there are many laserdisc movies containing prints that never have been released before, even on DVD, and its pretty hard to try and fnid a rare 35mm print of it too :D

still relating, the quality authored on the discs are inferior as i am aware but it is hardware we depend on to get the best out of it, and this is somewhat what i am aiming for but not for actual video processing.

the primary reason why i am asking so much for it is (i need to get the purist signal out of the hardware from the laserdisc) because they will be taken to a professional film restoration company in america (despite me being in the UK) for analyzes and to assess what can be done to it, therefore providing them with the purist signal and for them to also know what can be done is essential.

[eiren]

Ahh got you.

Well the ideal situation for them is to just have a LD transport, and for them to be able to rip the disc contents directly to hard disk.

They would then be able to work with the raw digital video files, which is optimal.

You really don't want them capturing the lossy output from either composite or S-Video.

My guess is the right person could rig up a computer DVD drive to read the LD transport mechanism instead, and rip the raw files to hard disk.

[eiren]

Here's some good info if that optimal solution doesn't prove to be possible:

Preserving a classical music Laserdisc collection - VideoHelp.com

[LD_OUT]

brilliant, good thing we are seeing eye to eye, hahaha. We have ben having this discussion for awhile with them and they are state of the art, however when i asked for such a thing to be performed, they said it cant be done because they dont have a laserdisc player, although after some initial talks including that i will do the job of the laserdisc player then he says something can be done then.

Including in our emails was that i can provide them the footage as a lossless digital file which would retain all data and would be practical for me as well.

However i am not entirely sure of this LD Transport that you mention and raw digital video files, how can i get raw if i cant yet get the purist video signal out yet?

[LD_OUT]

anyone at all may i ask?

sorry if i am abit noobish aon this Transport matter, but willit be possible if u can explain abit further to me about this? sounds very intriguing :D

[eiren]

This seems to be the closest I've found of someone doing it. They used a Sony video camera as the 'middleman' so to speak.

http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/...8448_27_0.html

Might be worth signing up to the laserdisc newsgroup that article is from.

[LD_OUT]

Hi, thanks so much for getting back and also i am really glad u have pointed that link out, not because that they are using a dv cam as a capture device but because one mentioned an industry laserdisc player, this being the LD-V4300, which is very similar to a player that i have een wanting to get for a long time, the Pioneer LD-V8000, the most advanced industrial laserdisc player, and from what the user in that website has mentioned on his player, that it provides a raw and unmodified
composite-signal. What do you think i can expect frmo my chosen player? :D

in addition, it has a Digital Timebase corrector, which already now ticks a box in my list, and whats interesting to note, as whats been mentioned in the laserdisc archieve:

Open Architecture

By allowing the interactive system designer to build onto existing software, OPEN ARCHITECTURE affords the ability to customize the LD-V8000. Additional program tasks may be implemented by modifying the instruction set of resident EPROMs. In cases where extra RAM, extra ROM, alternative connectors or processors are required, additional physical space and appropriate signals are available inside the LD-V8000.

i dont know about you, but doesnt this lead already a potential for modifications as one that i haev mentioned in my earlier post?

anyways enough with this excitement now, I myself have a Canon HDV camera, ive read around before someone using it to obtain Nightshot mode by attaching a Sony cam (they believed they were getting HD but where slapped because they werent and was merely doing a pass-through, in this case then, im wondering if i could do such a thing.

the thing yet that still confuses me is, the use of using a Composite cable either way, because from some events on another forum i was probably convinved that using these kind of cables will still result in generation loss, and that was something i want to avoid. Please can someone prove or correct me on this?

[choddo2006]

Any conversion to an analog composite signal, and then re-digitising will alter the content. How much it alters it depends mostly on the sample rate of the capture device and the quality of the cable. I'd have thought you'd get a result quite close to the original with a HDV cam and a short, shielded cable out of a good composite player.

What would be "as good as it could get" would be a customisation of the player as you suggest, to output the digital source content as a datastream (over USB?) and then capturing that with some custom software. It's a big job. I would suggest too big for the problem.

[eiren]

Yeah somehow you want to intercept the digital information that is being read from the disc by the laserdisc mechanism.

You want something to be able to pull this digital signal from the player BEFORE it gets to the digital-to-analogue converters.

[LD_OUT]

Its actually Analogue to Digital and not the other way round, becuse if that was the case then one would indeed experience and result in loss of quality and probably quite dramatically if not done properly.

regarding composite cable, whilst using one, can u still obtain the raw signal? or still loss quality because 'the cables' will always provide a loss of generation quality, and i meana any cable?

now my initial plan or dream (since i am not really a tech person who knows how to modify stuff) was to get the perfect player that can read a laserdisc purely and even obtain the signal purely, however because of my worry of cables themselves loosing quality just by using them, i proposed that we modify this player by adding a A/D chip or board, hence soldering it from the composite output toth e board where the board will provide an output either Firewire or HDMI if possible, and can use simple software such a VirtualDub to capture the video in any compression we want. i hope thats clear and wonserinf what u lot think of that?

However just 13 hours ago, i came across a player which seems to be the best thing ever, the Pioneer LD-V4300D, not only this can play both PAL and NTSC laserdiscs, but strangely it provides an RGB output signal :D how is this possible? There isnt much i could find except from the laserdisc archieves and a PDF that talks briefly about it. But man, i am so stuck between the two players and really want to get my hands on it.

[Cliff]

The RGB out is derived from the composite signal on the disk. Just like a CRT TV gets rgb for the 3 colour guns.
The Sony LD players gave you the option of an RGB out on scart. This was useful if your TV could not decode NTSC

[choddo2006]

Originally Posted by LD_OUT

Its actually Analogue to Digital and not the other way round, becuse if that was the case then one would indeed experience and result in loss of quality and probably quite dramatically if not done properly.

Sorry! God I keep forgetting this. I guess the cable issue is still there and the quality of the components in the player are still relevant but it would make a modification harder to produce a digital version for a computer to ingest.

[Nic Rhodes]

but was rarely the connection for the best quality if you had good quality partnering equiment. Similarly with a S Video connection on some players. The pure composite fed to decent 3d comb filtering (internal or external) was the best way forward.

[LD_OUT]

Originally Posted by Cliff

The RGB out is derived from the composite signal on the disk. Just like a CRT TV gets rgb for the 3 colour guns.
The Sony LD players gave you the option of an RGB out on scart. This was useful if your TV could not decode NTSC

i am not entirely sure of whjat u are saying but i am aware that CRT TVs display RGB because thats its nature correct?

however on thid lpayer, i do not see any scarts like the Sony player u mention, there arent many pics of it or clear ones either with the rear panel showing but the RGB output is technically a terminal, like a VGA socket:

http://www.dragons-lair-project.com/...ifications.pdf

but alot of places indicated that using this terminal will provide superior image display. This is very interesting.

Originally Posted by choddo2006

Sorry! God I keep forgetting this. I guess the cable issue is still there and the quality of the components in the player are still relevant but it would make a modification harder to produce a digital version for a computer to ingest.

thats okay :D i was about to mention as well like even when using component cables, even though htey provide the BEST quality output doesnt the cable already result in small amount of generation loss?

and sorry for being noobish but i didnt quite get wat u meant about the modifications, however from what Ive mentioend isnt it possible to do such a thing? because i was talking alot in theory; Cant one open up the player and solder wires to a A/D converter board from where the signal will be outputted in the player? of course there is moer to consider like what chip to use exactly and what is needed to think about there as well.

Originally Posted by Nic Rhodes

but was rarely the connection for the best quality if you had good quality partnering equiment. Similarly with a S Video connection on some players. The pure composite fed to decent 3d comb filtering (internal or external) was the best way forward.

You are probably correct on this, however only the might and rich was able to do this :D However at this day and age we have come to the point where this is slightly inferior and obtaining such equipment or to display this quality is accessible and easy :D

[eiren]

That's a good point... Laserdiscs don't store digital video... it's analogue FM video stored in the composite domain.

That raw unmodified composite signal is going to be the best you can get.

[Cliff]

RGB would be superior if the signal on the disk was recorded that way- but it is analogue composite, and not RGB or digital. As Eiren said, the best you can get is from the composite terminal.
Don't get too carried away with expensive cables - just a well made yellow RCA 75ohm cable will be fine.

[Nic Rhodes]

Yes best quality would be a crimped BNC socket / cable system of 75 ohm CI spec, using composite feeding a good quality (3d) comb filter. None of this is particularly expensive, the cable I use the best spec Belden one there is on my LD players and they cost me less than £1 to make. There is a good old thread about the BNC / Cables on LD players from a few years back.

[LD_OUT]

Originally Posted by eiren

That's a good point... Laserdiscs don't store digital video... it's analogue FM video stored in the composite domain.

That raw unmodified composite signal is going to be the best you can get.

hahaha, with the technology back then it would hve been very costly to do digital composite authoring and playback on those players :D no one would hve been able to afford it and would hve been unneccessary to the consumer :D

i am very of this anyways :D however i aim all this time was to get raw composite signal, however the LD-V4300D not only is a very good player and that can provide raw composite signal, but what really interests me is its RGB terminal output, this is very new to me, that a laserdisc player with this kind of output, and in manuals i have read it states that using this would yield superior picture.

To Cliff and Nic Rhodes, i'll try not to get too carried away with expensive cables, but i was astonished when i came about reading something called 'Bullet Plugs' ?

[choddo2006]

I don't think RGB is going to give you anything you want.

bullet plugs

Sounds like utter balls

[Cliff]

If you believe in fairies at the bottom of your garden by all means get a bullet plug.
If you have long grass, like most people, then get a normal composite cable BNC or RCA.
The RGB as we have said before is created inside the player from the raw composite on the disk and, yes if you connect it to a monitor with rgb it is the way to go.
But if you want the best for your conversion then use the raw composite.

[LD_OUT]

Originally Posted by choddo2006

I don't think RGB is going to give you anything you want.

bullet plugs

Sounds like utter balls

wow, are they really that bad with reputation? how is that or how comes?

Originally Posted by Cliff

If you believe in fairies at the bottom of your garden by all means get a bullet plug.
If you have long grass, like most people, then get a normal composite cable BNC or RCA.
The RGB as we have said before is created inside the player from the raw composite on the disk and, yes if you connect it to a monitor with rgb it is the way to go.
But if you want the best for your conversion then use the raw composite.

Dont worry, im pretty sure i can get some good cables, maybe even gold composite cables? hahahaha.

so if i am correct, the player converts the composite signal to RGB? and as it states it yields a better picture? what could be wrong? is its conversion not the best or something?

i mean it doesnt hve to be completely comnected for a monitor only, we have equipment that can easily take advantage of RGB signals, like our HDTVs? :D

[choddo2006]

Originally Posted by LD_OUT

wow, are they really that bad with reputation? how is that or how comes?

That is my opinion based on that webpage singing its praises, littered with the usual audiophile nonsense adjectives and pseudo-physics.

[choddo2006]

Originally Posted by LD_OUT

i mean it doesnt hve to be completely comnected for a monitor only, we have equipment that can easily take advantage of RGB signals, like our HDTVs? :D

I thought you were sending this off to be professionally processed/restored?

[LD_OUT]

Originally Posted by choddo2006

I thought you were sending this off to be professionally processed/restored?

That is correct, however i would like to know exactly what the results will be like, beacuse if the company will have more data or information, then they will have more to work with in terms of restoration, but before so i would still very much like to know if it is really worth it.

i mean what is better in this situation with the understanding that Laserdiscs are composite authored; getting a raw unmodified signal? OR obtaining an RGB signal from the player which without a doubt states will lead to a superior picture?

[Nic Rhodes]

The decoding to RGB in these players is technology from one or two decades ago, not cutting edge stuff now, and loaded with advertising garbage to sell it to unsuspecting punters of the day. It was low spec even then. Modern processing like the Lumagen is light years ahead and you should really be looking at optimising the comb filter here on a 75 ohm CI line, that doesn't mean non 75 ohm CI RCAs Optimise your composite output by looking at one of the heavy weight Japenese / US battleship players and feed to top comb filter. The rest is very second best.