Help selecting a Scaler for Kuro 4280

[h3ndrix]

Hey guyz,

Been reading up and down for information about your suggestions to ppl who need help, but it seems to me that everyone needs something different from the other because of thier TV, connection type, source material etc. So, I need specific help as well I guess.

I just bought the Pioneer 4280XA plasma (1024x768 rez. for ppl who might not now) and its linked upto a satellite decoder thru a Sony HD/Recorder (HX750) that supposedly does upscaling etc. I am not that happy with the deinterlacing and am seeing (I believe) examples of CUE. I mostly watch SD DVD's and satellite TV (PAL) as HD material is just beginning to roll-out but wont settle for a few years still, it seems.

What would you guyz suggest for a processor for this setup? I have been looking at VP20/30 + the deinterlacing card and the Lumagen, but honestly I cant tell the difference of some of the stuff on paper and unfortunately I cant go to a shop to see them live as there is no place as such. Because I dont really understand some of the technical stuff (yet!) I might be fine with something that gives a good/clean/crisp image rather than something that is completely configurable and then there is the price of the thing as well

Any suggestions? Thx.

[Liam @ Prog AV]

First thing is turn off the upscaling on the Sony, and in fact bypass it totally if you can. Odds are the Sony is ruining everything as the TV is quite nice on it's own. If RGB scart output from satellite, get a JS Tech 1:2 and run one scart to the recorder, and a seperate to the TV. Then run the output of the recorder to the TV with processing turned off and let the TV do the work. Oh and make sure you do have RGB on, decent cables, that kind of thing (what do you think of freeview using the built-in decoder?).

If this doesn't get rid of the bulk of your woe's I'm afraid you haven't bought the most ideal plasma to hook a VP up to but it can be made to work. VP20/30 is good for SD film and TV but does nothing for your HD, Lumagen is more film oriented and will give you the best possible image from SD and HD movies on Sky, DVD, HD/BD etc etc. But for now work on setting up your current kit to it's best.

[h3ndrix]

Thx for the reply

I will definately try to bypass the Sony if it can be done, there is an option to output 576i to HDMI, but I dont know if that will bypass the other stuff or if it will just control the resolution.

I currently have my Sony hooked-up to the TV via HDMI, which I forgot to mention. I guess I could leave that as HDMI so I wouldnt have to go back to SCART, right? The JS Tech 1:2 you mentioned is, Im guessing, is a switch right? The part I dont understand is why I need to hook the recorder and decoder sperately and also run it thru a switch at the same time...can you explain that a little please. Btw, I think the plasma is great, spectacular infact even in DVD material, and dont judge me on this, at a viewing distance of 3 m (about 9 feet) its better than some Full HD TV's that I saw running HD DVD material. Im guessing thats mostly thx to color reproduction and the black intensity. Freeview isnt available where I live (Turkey), but even the SD broadcast stuff is pretty damn nice from that distance.

I really dont know when the transition over to HD will be good enough to invest in an HD satellite decoder etc., but until then dont you think the VP20 or even iScan HD would be good enough? I really dont know thats why I am asking (also there are some on ebay and I need to learn cause they are relativily expensive?

edit: I guess I should have said something like the VP50, as the problem I am having is not the scaling per se, but the artifacts that the source carries.

[choddo2006]

The vp20 with an ABT card is a great solution for SD sources but you're not going to easily output 1024x768 into your Pioneer with it (or anything) - the Pioneer actually handles SD quite well so the value of the vp20 is less than it would have been a couple of generations back (imho)

576i should stop the Sony from doing much processing so definitely start there.

The vp50 won't get rid of artefacts from the source. Not much can. You can use noise reduction on the VP50Pro, C2 and new Lumagen (if you're made of money) but that introduces some softening by design.

[Liam @ Prog AV]

The point of the 1:2 distributor was to get RGB signals out of the satellite box twice. Once direct to the TV, once to the recorder. This I recommended because it appears your recorder was damaging your signal.

Now it could also be a case that the Sony is doing it! How do you connect to the Sony? I'm quite convinced if you set this thing up properley (RGB and/or component signals, correct settings on sources and amp, no progressive scan or upscaling turned on anywhere) that you will enjoy a better image.

[h3ndrix]

I understand why you suggested the 1:2 now, but I don't know if that will satisfy me. The reason I say that has to do with the TV's dealing method with combing, or I should say its inability to deal with it that well. Oh, I should clearly state this is only an issue for broadcast material, as I don't see this happening with DVD's. Thats why I started considering a processor in the first place.

The way its setup right now consists of 1 x HDMI and 1x SCART cable. The satellite decoder sends 576i RGB signals to the Sony over SCART and the Sony sends YCbCr 4:2:2 1080p signals in to the TV over HDMI. But, I still see some moire in tight black and white lines, I see examples of CUE and some combing in broadcast material. I tried sending 576i signals from Sony to the TV, but that was actually worse. These are all concerning broadcast material of course, I don't get these when watching DVD's. In fact, I have never seen such color and fine reproduction on a DVD material before. This tells one of two things, either the satellite decoder is a piece of crap or something else is happening in the TV with the SD broadcast material. Even if I feed the TV directly from the satellite decoder via SCART, I still see combing in fast color changes, I see CUE, especially on contrast lines in the form of walking ants, I see some macro-blocking, although that is not apparent and convergence on tight black-white lines, resulting in moire.

Hence, I would like to get rid of these artifacts when watching SD broadcasts and honestly I don't think its fair to blame the Sony for most of that. I think the TV creates most of these problems during the internal upscaling.

[choddo2006]

That's clearly not the TV producing the combing then. It's the Sony doing that when it creates the 1080p signal. If it's worse when sending 576i from the Sony (you sure it's not 576p?) then you really need to check what it's like when sending direct.

With DVD you won't get combing usually as it's movie source, not video. Plus the higher quality of DVD material probably makes cadence detection a bit easier even when it is video stuff.

If you're getting too much combing when connected direct you should change out of the cinema/film mode, whatever it is Pio call it.

Walking ants doesn't sound like cue to me (although I'm not an expert), sounds like you're sending a composite signal, you've set it RGB and it's an RGB capable input?

And you shouldn't get CUE on broadcast material, that's a DVD artefact isn't it?

[Gordon @ Convergent AV]

CUE is an artefact of anything with an mpeg decoder. So any digital freeview or satellite box could exhibit it if the decoder used inside has this problem, I believe.

[Liam @ Prog AV]

Everything those two just said.

[h3ndrix]

So, let me see if I understand this. According to the last two post, wouldnt that mean that a processor would help me get rid off these problems that are caused by the mpeg decoder, or no? I mean isnt that one of the abilities of a processor?

[Gordon @ Convergent AV]

Yes a processor should help remove the effects of CUE. With a Kuro and a Radiance you'd also get the most accurate colour(if you had a calibration done at same time), better film detection, better video source de-interlacing and better scaling.

[h3ndrix]

Thx Gordon

I know youre in favor of Lumagen and thats great, but could you forget that youre the distributor of Lumagen for a minute and suggest something that is more suitable for a beginner in this territory (read: cheaper, maybe less features, but something that will do the job).

Thx

[Gordon @ Convergent AV]

I think most of the units out there are mentioned in this thread. The reality is that if you want to fix all the probelms it costs money. If you don't mind having some issues not resolved then there are cheaper alternatives. You've already mentioned a couple in your top thread. The ABT equipped VP series will do better de-interlacingof stuff that was recorded on a video camera compared to the Lumagen Vision series. In all other respects I believe the Lumagen is superior. HDP's are now around £900 and an HDQ is around £1500 I believe, I dont know cosrt of abt equipped vp20's. They are the main contenders for more cost effective solution.

You also need to consider that less features usually means less ability to correct issues or optimise the system. Also figure in that, no matter what anyone says, these are not plug and play devices. User interventin is required to configure them and the rest of you requipment properly and to this end you should also think about the back up and service provided for the product you end up with.

Hope this is of more use.

Gordon