Hdtv???????????

[robk]

Forgive me if this has been said before. But just a simple man asking a simple question................

Given that there seems to be no sign of HDTV in non-NTSC countries, but also given the fact that any high-end CRT kit bought in the UK shows NTSC picture, plus I presume digital channels (given the bandwidth) could show both NDTV PAL with HDTV NTSC signals, as well as the fact that plasma kit works in the digital domain and could therefore show either, why would it not make more sense for europe to adapt the NTSC HDTV system rather than their own and to eliminate a whole lot of messing around for everyone.

To argue with myself I presume part of the issue is a misguided "our sytem is best" mentality, but I presume HD NTSC is better than ND PAL to all but the most committed nationalist.

I also presume one would argue that the "front end" would have to be HD NTSC which would then be converted down to ND PAL but surely if the source is sufficient quality (as I presume HDTV is) then little would be lost in any complex electronics.

Or am I just naive in thinking that such fundamental differences in system are at all compatible. (Even though my consumer TV and DVD player can quite happily switch between 50hz PAL and 60hz NTSC without a grumble)

[Gordon @ Convergent AV]

NTSC and PAL are essentially the same method of encoding information in as small a bandwidth as possible. HDTV is not NTSC although it is available in NTSC countries like Japan and USA. They both actually have different HDTV standards. The ATSC(i think that's the nomencature) in America set out the proposed standards for HDTV in US. There were/are something like 26-36 resolutions set for HDTV in US. In reality they only use 2....

Whether broadcast HDTV is better than PAL de-interlaced to 576p depends largely on the methods of transmission and encoding of HDTV. Low bitrates and poor HDTV conversion can result in some really crappy looking HDTV I believe.

Having said that your premise is sort of right. HDTV done correctly is pretty amazing. It's a question of bandwidth. Low bitrate digital satellite broadcast in UK allows all those Sky channels. You'd get a lot less if you started doing high bitrate HDTV. Our government chose quantity over quality.....oops!

Gordon

[robk]

What I was also implying is that the higher resolutions of NTSC ie true HDTV (1080i or 720p) are being transmitted in the US and Japan and therefore the programming is available. Would it not be therefore make sense for Europe to adopt these formats as their HDTV rather than developing another system (at I presume great expense). In other words could we us 625i PAL as our standard system and have 720p and 1080i NTSC as our hi-def standard. (Although I never realised Japan and the US have different HDTV standards of NTSC! We would of course adopt the US system since we share a lot of programmming)

[Gordon @ Convergent AV]

I'm with you on hoping we get HDTV. It'll be ages, if at all before we get it though. Perhaps by time they come to talk about proposing standards technology will be around to allow us to have an even higher reolution system with less bandwidth!

Iwould mention though that you should not confuse NTSC with HDTV. They are completely different things (as I think you understand). There isn't an HDTV NTSC standard. Bit pedantic but it stops further confusion for others.

PAL is standard
NTSC is a standard
HDTV is a standard with many subset resolutions



Gordon

[robk]

Yes I'm slightly confused on my terminology. By HDTV I mean high definition TV i.e. 720 lines plus. I assumed that in the US it is still NTSC i.e. their colour system plus 60hz but a greater number of scan lines. I thought therefore you could have a hi-def system based on NTSC as well as a hi-def system based on PAL. You are saying therefore that US HDTV is an entirely different standand to NTSC anyway and by assumption Europe could adopt exactly the same HDTV system if they wanted?

I agree with what you said about the bandwidth issues, it's merely a commercial decision, but surely at some point we have to progress. I was just wondering how the transition will begin and as ever the early adapters will pay through the nose!

However since the US and Japan seem to be making some headway and browsing their websites the equipment is expensive but not ridiculous (and coming down), it would be nice to think that it would be possible to use their hardware thus creating economies of scale for manufacturers and hence better prices for us. If there is a different European standard and hence equipment we will be starting at top price again.

[Gordon @ Convergent AV]

Rob:

HDTV in US is not based on NTSC. It uses a component signal to carry the info whereas NTSC is composite. The colour gammut of the system is far greater as well...I'll see if I can get a decent link to explain this for you.

I'm with you on the rest though!

Gordon

[Chris Muriel]

You can download the standards for HDTV from the ATSC forum's website (www.atsc.org). This is the Advanced Television Standards Committee.
Interestingly, on the DVB website (www.DVB.org) there are a number of statements & reports that deliberately have a go at ATSC ; it would appear that any relationship between DVB & ATSC is somewhat frosty. Part of the reason was that the DVB had hoped that the USA would go with the DVB standard for Digital Terrestrial TV (COFDM) whereas they plumped for a tailor made VSB system. Various interested parties in the US are still arguing as to the merits of both systems.

Chris Muriel, Manchester.

[robk]

Interesting stuff.

This kind of goes back to my initial point in that if there are too many interested parties squabbling about which system is best and we are going to end up with the same PAL/SECAM/NTSC-type situation with different standards and therefore us (the consumer) will lose out because equipment + software will not be a true worldwide standard and econimies of scale will not be optomised. As usual the US will get a better deal than Europe.

(I suppose I might be looking at it from the wrong point of view. Such incompatibilities enable businesses to exploit different markets at different times/prices i.e. DVD regions. So maybe they are not gunning for worldwide standards)

Rob,

When even the US market has more than 40 available standards for HDTV transmission to choose from, ANY standardisation seems remtote!

Although there are all these theoretical standards there are currently three actively used - 480P (4x3 aspect), 720P and 1080i (both 16x9 aspect) so there is still enough of a problem.

From a manufacturers view, we love it and hate it! We make the converters that convert between all these formats (and PAL and NTSC) so this confusion makes good business for us. But any HD products we make (like vision mixers, noise reducers, Disk stores, fibre transmission etc..) has to be capable at running at all these resolutions as well so that costs a lot in design effort.

In the long run it is more likely that should Europe and the UK ever go HD, then we will probably end up using the same ATSC rates as the US (and therefore 59.94Hz refresh rate) simply because the standards are set and in use (even if a little open ended).

Hope this is of interest!