Loewe Aconda Progressive Scan

Hi,

I've been following this forum, trying to figure out the whole progressive scan business, but most queries seem to relate to projection rather than direct view sets.

I've been told by Loewe that their direct view Aconda supports Progressive Scan (50/60Hz). Does anyone know if this means that it will display a 'true' progressive scan image from, say a Sony S9000ES or some other progressive scan player(Pioneer, Toshiba etc.)?

If it will display Progressive Scan, what resolutions and refresh rates does it support and can it do 3:2 pulldown 'removal' (or whatever its called)?

Sorry if this isn't too relevant to this forum, but I'm kinda running into difficulty getting this info anywhere else, and you guys seem ridiculously knowledgeable...

thanks in advance.

[This message has been edited by hudson806 (edited 29-11-2000).]

Originally posted by hudson806:
...but most queries seem to relate to projection rather than direct view sets.

That's because progressive scanning is more relevant to very large displays and there are so few progressive direct view TVs in the UK & Europe. That's not to say that there aren't benefits to progressive scanning smaller displays.

I've been told by Loewe that their direct view Aconda supports Progressive Scan (50/60Hz).

As far as I can find out, all Loewe TVs with the Media Plus Chassis can accept progressive video via a computer type VGA connection and that this input is configured for 480p @60Hz only. (800x600 @94Hz interlaced is possible).

Does anyone know if this means that it will display a 'true' progressive scan image from, say a Sony S9000ES or some other progressive scan player(Pioneer, Toshiba etc.)?

Yes it will be true progressive, it essentially relays the progressive VGA input direct to the display tube.

However, the component inputs on the Loewe are for interlaced video only (as far as I can find out) so to use a progressive DVD players progressive output you will need to find one with a VGA output, and they are few and far between.

Possibilities are:

Camelot Technology Round Table http://www.camelottechnology.com/

Ayre D1 (plus VR2 module) http://www.ayre.com/

Princeton PDVD5000 http://www.princetongraphics.com/

Philips DVD1000 (pending copy protection issues)

The first three are USA models and are very expensive. The Camelot player will do PAL also. The Philips is a proposed UK model and should be well under the £1000 mark.

Other alternatives include using a home cinema configured PC or having a decent DVD player converted with a device such as the Cinematrix PSM 1 Progressive Scan Module.
http://www.cinematrix.de/

Or try the Metz Artos 32" progressive scan TV.
http://www.metz.de/

It will do 100/120Hz interlaced or 50/60Hz progressive for the interlaced video inputs which include component. Only progressive input is again a VGA one configured to 480p @60hz only. This TV doesn't appear to have 3:2 pulldown detection for NTSC movie sources as far as I could tell.

If it will display Progressive Scan, what resolutions and refresh rates does it support and can it do 3:2 pulldown 'removal' (or whatever its called)?

As above for the formats. The progressive scan VGA input bypasses any processing so just displays whatever you put into it.

The latest Loewe models with Media Plus Chassis have a de-interlacer built in which is used for the DMM, DMI functions. This is a Philips chip as used for their Natural Motion feature. But I don't believe any Loewe TV uses the progressive output from this chip, more likely re-interlace it for the 100/120Hz modes.

One Loewe employee did indicate that maybe for NTSC inputs the TVs could do progressive at 60Hz but then two other employees contradicted him stating that progressive is only available via the VGA input. The Philips chip does have 3:2 detection though. So even in 120Hz interlaced mode 3:2 judder can be removed.

[This message has been edited by Ludae (edited 30-11-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Ludae (edited 30-11-2000).]

A few questions:

Does progressive scan makes obsolete the necessity of 100Hz sets?
If so, would it be a good choice to wait for a European progressive scan TV compatible with PAL and NTSC sources?

If the progressive input of the Aconda and the Artos is via a VGA connection, is there any way to connect it to, say, the new Sony 9000ES?

If the Metz Artos seems to be unable to do 3:2 pulldown, then, how can it handle NTSC sources?

Thank you.

CO

Originally posted by Cipoliv:

Does progressive scan makes obsolete the necessity of 100Hz sets?

Yes & No. That was helpful wasn't it!

Better if I explain why 100Hz exists, and that is to reduce annoying flicker on PAL video which has a flicker rate of 50Hz.

50fields or frames per second on phosphor based scanning displays like your typical television is too low and flicker becomes apparent on bright images and interline flicker is at 25Hz so is even worse.

100Hz doubles the field rate and virtually eliminates flicker. Interline flicker will now be at 50Hz so additional filtering can be used to reduce its effect.

Progressive CRT displays require the same horizontal scanning frequency as 100Hz devices, but because they scan all the lines in one pass instead of just half the lines of a 100Hz interlaced device, they must drop the frame rate down to 50Hz. Therefore flicker can be a problem again, although interline flicker is eliminated if the progressive processing is high quality.

Progressive scanning NTSC at 60Hz has half the flicker of a 50Hz display so flicker is not much of a problem for NTSC sources. Indeed the 120Hz interlaced mode that most 100Hz TVs use for NTSC sources is not really essential.

To retain the vertical detail in a progressive display the progressive processing needs to be high quality otherwise it is best to stick with interlaced.

It's too big a subject to go into thoroughly here, that's why we are working on a web site to explain video processing. The site should be available soon.

If so, would it be a good choice to wait for a European progressive scan TV compatible with PAL and NTSC sources?

You may have a long wait to find a good selection of progressive TVs in the UK and Europe. Unless you go for high end devices like Panasonics latest plasma display.

If the progressive input of the Aconda and the Artos is via a VGA connection, is there any way to connect it to, say, the new Sony 9000ES?

Not if you want to use the progressive output from the Sony.

If the Metz Artos seems to be unable to do 3:2 pulldown, then, how can it handle NTSC sources?

It is not essential the remove the redundant fields from the 3:2 sequence to process NTSC film source material, but the best quality results are achieved if the correct two fields making up a film frame are simply interleaved. Not doing so will result in artifacts, the nature of which will depend on the type of de-interlacing processing for a particular display. Of course, these artifacts are of much greater concern with very large displays.

I have not fully tested the ARTOS with NTSC film source material, but from what I could tell it didn't appear to produce the same quality with NTSC as it did with PAL.