[Phil Hinton]

David Mackenzie gives us a video summary of the Sony BDP-S5000ES Blu-ray Player.

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[Perceval]

There's another review in this month's HifiNews BTW and they rave about it's BD performance saying 'only the BDP-lX91 comes near'.

Have never seen a Sony ad in that magazine. Review by Richard Stevenson.

Overwhelmingly positive reviews on the whole, but a few negatives including the above.

The world would be a very boring place if we all had the same opinions.

Still cannot see how David M sees the PS3 as the benchmark player though. Could he explain why?

Cheers.

[namuk]

Good insight
works better if the Chin Beard does not get jammed in the drive

[David Mackenzie]

Chin beard, oh you!

Still cannot see how David M sees the PS3 as the benchmark player though. Could he explain why?

Of course - because there's nothing wrong with what comes out of it. The fact that it's fast helps, too.

The fact that this ~£1000 machine can't play PAL DVD optimally and occasionally introduces combing into 24p BD content isn't really an opinion, it's there for all to see (unless there is a different firmware version floating around)...

[kanga]

This is my first post and I must say what a great forum.
I now own a Sony ES5000 purchased after a disappointing result when I "foolishly" read a very positive review on the PioneerLX71 and went straight out and bought it for A$1,300.00. The reviewer canned the ES5000 so I dismissed it even though the Sony was only A$399.00 extra in cost than the LX 71 and is a ""high end product" compared to the LX71 .

I find the Sony far superior in DVD playback- (I use the 576i setting and let my Pioneer 507 do the rest, the result is stunning, I might add this setting was also the best with the pioneer LX71)
CD playback excellent,
Blu ray excellent
I am at a loss as to why quite quite a few reviewers say the Sony ES5000 DVD (pal)playback is bad, when compared to the LX71 it is far superior.
The Sony IMO is a great 1 box solution.Perhaps I am missing something.

[kingfats]

Originally Posted by kanga

CD playback excellent,
Blu ray excellent
I am at a loss as to why quite quite a few reviewers say the Sony ES5000 DVD (pal)playback is bad, when compared to the LX71 it is far superior.
The Sony IMO is a great 1 box solution.Perhaps I am missing something.

Welcome to the forum kanga.
Yes CD is excellent from the Sony as transport or via analogue and to me the best i've heard from a BD player to date,91 or 3800 included.
PAL is fine (good scaling) but i agree with David 2-2 deinterlacing should be better from a high end machine.Saying that though i'm yet to find a BD player with optimum DVD playback even the LX91 can introduce shimmering to edges on some content.
All the best.

[Welwynnick]

Originally Posted by David Mackenzie

The fact that this ~£1000 machine can't play PAL DVD optimally and occasionally introduces combing into 24p BD content isn't really an opinion, it's there for all to see (unless there is a different firmware version floating around)...

David, in the review you said that the S5000 decodes 1080p24 video as 1080i60, then de-interlaces it back to 1080p24 or whatever for output.

Are you absolutely sure about that - even my old BDP-S1 didn't do that, and on the face of it, that sounds like an unbelieveable step backwards?

Nick

[kingfats]

I was suprised as well Nic,i don't have the mentioned discs or had any issues to date but here's the quote from Davids review.
Hopefully Eric will answer my post regarding the matter here in the Sony thread.


"For some reason, high end players are typically designed to decode this as 1080i/60 and then use additional video processing to detect the correct cadence and return the footage to 1080p/24 (or 1080p/60, if your TV doesn’t support 24p input). I’m not entirely sure what the thinking here is, but presumably it’s to give the player the chance to correct for cadence detection errors that have occurred in the studio. Disney’s early US release of “Chicago”, for example, was evidently sourced from a 1080i master and there are points in the film near the very end where combing occurs (ditto for Sony’s remastered, and presumably original releases of “The Fifth Element”).

Unfortunately, two discs I tried during the review process briefly tripped up this somewhat convoluted process. The first was the anime movie “Tekkonkinkreet”. Presumably because of the highly limited nature of the animation, the player would occasionally lose its grip and show combing. (This content is traditionally animated with less drawings to save money - “on threes” in animator-speak, compared to more fluid American animation done “on twos”). Fortunately, I only noticed this twice - but that’s still two more times than machines costing a fraction of the price, which read the video directly as 24p.

I also noticed the same problem happen, again twice, during Optimum’s UK release of “My Blueberry Nights”, during the sequences where the filmmakers have duplicated frames during the editing stage. It’s for reasons such as these that I think processing 24p as anything other than Progressive is a bad idea - when you have a high end player that shows combing more than your own games console, it may be time to rethink your hardware design or at least include some sort of “Bypass” mode.

With most standard live action film content, the player would occasionally take 4-5 seconds to detect the contents as 24p and process them accordingly, showing combing in the mean time. However, once the contents had been verified as such, the player stayed locked and no further combing was seen, meaning that the player’s performance with most 1080p/24 content was no worse than other machines"

[Perceval]

So in plain English please does this mean the player detects whether the source material is 1080p 24 encoded or 1080i and then acts accordingly?

[Welwynnick]

Originally Posted by anwarsadat

So in plain English please does this mean the player detects whether the source material is 1080p 24 encoded or 1080i and then acts accordingly?

Not exactly, but it would be a bit of a challenge to explain it in plain English, but since that's the mark of a true expert, I'll give it a crack.

It means the player is trying to detect and correct errors in the video processing performed during the mastering of the disc. Blu-ray playback should ideally be 1080p24 from master to display. However, it sounds like a few older discs were created from 1080i60 masters. These masters were de-interlaced to 1080p24, by the studio, using inverse telecine. So the disc still has 1080p24 video, whichever mastering technique was used.

Inverse telecine requires that the pairs of interlaced fields taken from each respective film frame are subsequently matched back up to restore the original frame. However, it appears that in some instances the wrong pairs of fields were recombined ("woven") into frames, which then suffer from nasty combing artifacts. This is an occasional de-interlacing fault that players typically suffer from from - but not the film studios themselves!

The S5000 appears to be going back to the original 1080i master by interlacing the 1080p24 on the disc, then doing the inverse telecine again, and hopefully better this time.

I think there are two problems here. Firstly, almost all BDs are mastered in 1080p24, and the proportion that aren't is only going to go down. That means the S5000 is going to have bear the risk of getting it wrong on the vast and increasing majority of BDs that are correctly mastered. I though we'd long since seen the back of that silly 1080i decoding episode, that we had to endure with the first generation BD & HD players.

BR, Nick

[David Mackenzie]

Originally Posted by welwynnick

David, in the review you said that the S5000 decodes 1080p24 video as 1080i60, then de-interlaces it back to 1080p24 or whatever for output.

Are you absolutely sure about that - even my old BDP-S1 didn't do that, and on the face of it, that sounds like an unbelieveable step backwards?

Yes, I'm sure - Sony actually confirmed it themselves. Panasonic also pointed out during a presentation of theirs, that a lot of high end players are doing this inside and IMO rightly pointed out the superiority of their own solution which leaves 24p as 24p throughout.

I think there are two problems here. Firstly, almost all BDs are mastered in 1080p24, and the proportion that aren't is only going to go down. That means the S5000 is going to have bear the risk of getting it wrong on the vast and increasing majority of BDs that are correctly mastered.

Exactly my thinking also. The only discs I've seen cadence detection/inverse telecine errors on are old ones. I wonder if the decision to use 60i-centric processing is down to corporate philosophy more than anything else: Sony have argued the case for interlaced solutions in the past, supposedly because they have large investments in this area.

[Welwynnick]

Originally Posted by David Mackenzie

Yes, I'm sure - Sony actually confirmed it themselves. Panasonic also pointed out during a presentation of theirs, that a lot of high end players are doing this inside and IMO rightly pointed out the superiority of their own solution which leaves 24p as 24p throughout.

Interesting stuff.

Can you tell us which other "high end" players also use interlaced decoding, so that we can avoid them? There can't be that many - Denon, Marantz?

This is a bit of a surprise though, considering that many players use the same decoding hardware.

Cheers, Nick

[Perceval]

David,

Not having a go (and not just 'defending my machine'), but how do you reconcile the fact that most reviews of this player are overwhelmingly positive?

Are Richard Stevenson and Paul Miller for example totally wrong?

[David Mackenzie]

I don't have a list, I'm afraid. But of course, will report other cadence problems if I see them in future players.

This is a bit of a surprise though, considering that many players use the same decoding hardware.

It's possible also that the decoder is the same, but that another component in the player (perhaps a proprietary Sony video processing chip, for example) insists upon 1080i input. That's entirely hypothetical, though.

[Perceval]

TBH I have a hard time following your logic that the PS3 produces a great image.

I own a US PS3 (soon to be retired), and find the image markedly inferior to the S5000ES.

BTW I also own a Panasonic BD 30, 35, Sony S550.

[David Mackenzie]

What's wrong with the PS3 image? Are there processing features on the S5000ES which you feel produce a better picture? Which ones?

[Perceval]

Originally Posted by David Mackenzie

What's wrong with the PS3 image? Are there processing features on the S5000ES which you feel produce a better picture? Which ones?

I just typed a response and lost it - scream.

I'll reply again later.

Just one thing I noticed you tested on a Sony KDL40V2000. I have one in a spare room and I have to say that this is a complete dog of a tv. Surely you agree.

[Welwynnick]

Originally Posted by anwarsadat

Just one thing I noticed you tested on a Sony KDL40V2000. I have one in a spare room and I have to say that this is a complete dog of a tv. Surely you agree.

What a refreshing change NOT to hear someone asserting the benefits of their own equipment - I think that adds credibility.

I'll join in - whatever you do everyone - DON'T buy a CenterStage CS1 scaler!

Interesting thread though, I'd really like to get to the bottom of this, and just when I was begining to think I should replace my Denon 2500BT with a Sony S5000 rather than the Denon 3800BD.

Nick

[David Mackenzie]

Just one thing I noticed you tested on a Sony KDL40V2000. I have one in a spare room and I have to say that this is a complete dog of a tv. Surely you agree.

Actually I do have a Sony 40W2000 on the other side of this room, but didn't test on it (I actually forget what TV I had here during the review). But yes, the colour reproduction and RGB tracking on the 2000-range Sonys leaves a lot to be desired.

[Perceval]

Taking noise, build, looks, poor audio, out of the equation..........


I find the PS3 lacking depth of image on my ISF'd KRP-600a. I think black levels are weak (yes it is set up correctly) and to use a tired expression it lacks POP.

The S5000es gives me a totally different viewing experience and one that is completely to my liking.

I also had a home loan of the BDP-LX91 and found it's image quality very similar to the 5000. I.E. very good and three dimensional with superior black level, shadow detail.

I use SBM, smoothing and reality enhancer +1 on the S5000es (All else off).

[David Mackenzie]

With respect, I've heard a lot of people say that the cheaper player lacks "depth" or "pop" but I've never heard these differences rationalised. Some sort of different gamma processing could explain it, but even then I'd expect that to be subtle. Then again, you are saying it's not in your case, and I can't really ignore that.

I'd love to do some blind demos of this stuff - I wonder if people would be able to point out the "greater depth" of "Expensive 4-figure player X" if it was hidden behind a black sheet.

I totally agree with your comments about noise and looks, though. In fact, I got told off for saying the PS3's casing looked hideous on the forums once...

[Perceval]

I'll happily supply my S5000 if you decide to do one.

All the best.

[simonblue]

Just to join in i have Jap PS3,and have not any problem with picture or sound,its is used as a region A player. As for the review on the Sony 5000,they seem to be some problems that are good to know about, if i am going to pay a £1000 for a player i would like to know everything about it

[kanga]

I too have a PS3 and yes blu ray is good, but standard DVD is not a patch on the ES5000, IMO there is just no contest. After using the Pioneer LX71 I did not expect much difference in pic quality with the ES5000 and in fact assumed it would be worse due to the negative reviews but The ES 5000 leaves the LX71 behind ( the LX71 was also better than the PS3).I expected the Sony ES to be faster and perhaps have a better picture with Blu ray, and play CD better than the LX71 as it was a disappointment in that field ( came no where new my Marantz DVD 8400.) However The ES5000 is better at everything. Sure it will no doubt screw up on the odd disc but I can live with that if it does but it sure has brought new life into my old DVD's and the PS3 didn't.
My old Marantz 8400 is on a par in CD playback with the ES5000 but DVD playback it is left behind.
I realise I am no expert and not looking for certain problamatic DVD scenes etc but I am very fussy re PQ, sound and ease of use and the ES5000 pushes all the right buttons. Maybe my Pioneer 507 Plasma is more suited to the ES5000 but I am so impressed with the Sony I can't imagine the picture being better, although I am sure it would be on a Pioneer 509 Kuro.

[David Mackenzie]

Sure it will no doubt screw up on the odd disc

Well, it screwed up every single PAL Film DVD that I fed it. But I do agree that the scaling is very nice, moreso than the Pioneer LX71.

[kanga]

Hi David, I have only had the player for a week, but have played the following DVD's; Tomb Raider, James Bond Thunderball, The 3 Indiana Jones Movies and Die Hard1,2 and 3 - all perfect. I find the best setting on the SonyES5000 is 576i and that was the same with the PioneerLX71.
I would love to try some of the DVD's you used, maybe the later players are better?

[kingfats]

Originally Posted by kanga

Hi David, I have only had the player for a week, but have played the following DVD's; Tomb Raider, James Bond Thunderball, The 3 Indiana Jones Movies and Die Hard1,2 and 3 - all perfect. I find the best setting on the SonyES5000 is 576i and that was the same with the PioneerLX71.
I would love to try some of the DVD's you used, maybe the later players are better?

Hi kanga.
With 576i out the 5000 will not be deinterlacing or scaling DVD so your relying on outside processing,but the Sony does send this cleanly though.
All the best.

[kanga]

Thanks for that kingfats, I noticed when I let the Sony and for that matter the Pioneer LX71 do the processing the pq was not as good, 720p( on the Sony but the Pioneer doesn't have this setting) is nearly as good but 576p and 10801 no where near the 576i setting and the Pioneer 507 Plasma doing the rest.
I assume this way I should not get the Sony's Pal cadence problems?

[kingfats]

Originally Posted by kanga

I assume this way I should not get the Sony's Pal cadence problems?

That's right your 507 will be doing the work.

I got the Sony BDP-S5000ES over a week ago now to replace my Sony BDP-S300 and Denon 2930 1080P upscaling DVD player. The Blue Ray pictures are much better on the 5000 with quicker loading times as you would expect but the icing on the cake is the 5000's DVD playback which is superior to the Denon. The Denon seems grainy in comparison with less sharper images. I am using HDMI cable to a Sony KDL -46W3000 for picture and 6 analogue direct outputs to a Cambridge Audio 5.1 surround amplifier. The HD sound output from the 5000 is fantastic, truly three dimensional!!!