[Phil Hinton]

We talk to Brent McCall of Ethereal Home Theater who explains why he became a cable manufacturer and why his cables are tested by DPL. Part three of three.

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[namuk]

Everyone will be on a HDMI buying frenzy this year

This is the site Ethereal

[IAN P]

Not at those prices

[namuk]

Originally Posted by IAN P

Not at those prices

[Phil Hinton]

Originally Posted by namuk

Everyone will be on a HDMI buying frenzy this year

This is the site Ethereal

To be fair to Brent, that wasn't the point of his interview, he wasn't selling you a cable and I thought as someone who does produce for the custom market, he was very honest in his answers and has a genuine attitude of education and information spreading. They do produce some very expensive HDMI cables, but they are not sold as a video enhancement in terms of picture, but in terms of reliability and materials used. That's a completely different approach to the 'other' cable manufacturers who avoid the DPL or other testing programs and promise you deeper blacks and whiter whites......... It's refreshing to hear some honesty from the cable camp for a change I think.

[IAN P]

I appreciate the high cost cables involve some serious manufacturing,but he said he can't afford to sell his $1000 cable for $100.

So is he not taking the same amount of care when making the cheaper cable?

I'd need to see one in action first before i'd consider paying anywhere near that amount.

But then we come back to the guy in the first 2 vid's,stating there won't be a discernable difference in picture quality.So in reality you're basically paying for excellent build quality.

[namuk]

Originally Posted by Phil Hinton

To be fair to Brent, that wasn't the point of his interview, he wasn't selling you a cable and I thought as someone who does produce for the custom market, he was very honest in his answers and has a genuine attitude of education and information spreading. They do produce some very expensive HDMI cables, but they are not sold as a video enhancement in terms of picture, but in terms of reliability and materials used. That's a completely different approach to the 'other' cable manufacturers who avoid the DPL or other testing programs and promise you deeper blacks and whiter whites......... It's refreshing to hear some honesty from the cable camp for a change I think.

I think you took the post the wrong way , i just posted the link to site thats all, and i no it is good to hear from the other side for a change, and the idea brent building a "job done" cable i.e exactly what it says on the tin also no returning to job

[Andris L]

Originally Posted by IAN P

I appreciate the high cost cables involve some serious manufacturing,but he said he can't afford to sell his $1000 cable for $100.

So is he not taking the same amount of care when making the cheaper cable?

He mentioned that they are trying to manufacture each cable as best they can to compete in that price range and the price difference comes down to quality of materials used for manufacturing each cable. At least that how I understood it .

Originally Posted by IAN P

I'd need to see one in action first before i'd consider paying anywhere near that amount.

But then we come back to the guy in the first 2 vid's,stating there won't be a discernable difference in picture quality.So in reality you're basically paying for excellent build quality.

It was mentioned that there could be a problem with actual video as well but my understanding is that video, most of the times, will be there and as you pointed out it all comes down to build quality to ensure video stays there and rest of processes work correctly along with video.


As Phil pointed out it is appreciated that someone from cable industry actually speaks truth and gives us an overview and explains what is what. I definitely will have a different point of view next time I buy HDMI cable after seeing these videos.

[namuk]

Originally Posted by Andris L

I definitely will have a different point of view next time I buy HDMI cable after seeing these videos.

Exactly my view indeed i just hope this standard gets sorted the way brent thinks is the RIGHT way, one less problem to question

[Andris L]

Originally Posted by namuk

Exactly my view indeed i just hope this standard gets sorted the way brent thinks is the RIGHT way, one less problem to question

Aye, and hopefully, as it was mentioned in other thread, we will see more manufactures get involved in this sort of testing so we can get our hands on some real world test results and make a right decision once it comes down to buying a cable.

[loz]

Originally Posted by IAN P

So in reality you're basically paying for excellent build quality.

But there's no real evidence there is a HDMI cable build problem in the first place.

Millions must have been sold or included with equipment in the last year. Yet you will only find a handful of people complaining that a cable failed.

OK, at the highest bandwidths and the longest cable lengths it could become an issue - its going to be a PITA re-running a 15mtr cable through conduit and such if it fails.

But convince me I need to spend $1197 on 'excellent build quality' for a 2mtr cable...

[Jules]

I think the video's were pretty clear that the problems with HDMI are faced by the custom install market.
At short lengths, you really don't need to spend more than a few quid on an HDMI lead.

Even if shorter cables are subject to consistency problems at manufacture, how many £5 cables would you need to test before that £200 cable made sense? alot I suspect.

Anyway.. there's no harm in trying a £5 cable from Tesco first is there?
I might even suggest you'd be mad not to try a £5 cable first.

I used to spend a fortune on analogue interconnects, but my last HDMI cables were from Tesco at £5 each. They connect my most expensive pieces of equipment together (£3800 Denon A1HD amplifier & £900 DVD2500BT), and they work perfectly.

I do use a better 10m cable to feed my projector, but for patching up components in the same rack... the first 2 videos make it clear that performance will often come without the price tag!

[IAN P]

=loz;8496681]
But convince me I need to spend $1197 on 'excellent build quality' for a 2mtr cable...

If people feel the need to spend £1000 on a cable,then it's their choice,nobody's forcing them.

There will always be people who want the best of everything no matter that they won't see a difference.

[loz]

Originally Posted by IAN P

If people feel the need to spend £1000 on a cable,then it's their choice,nobody's forcing them.

I don't doubt that. But it wasn't the question I asked.

[IAN P]

How you going to be convinced,no idea.Hyperbole by a cable manufactuer,there will be buyer's,no doubt about that.

Like i said,i would want a lengthy demo of said cable.

[Pecker]

If I can sum up what I've taken as a conclusion from these 3 videos, can someone please correct me where I've misunderstood or misinterpreted the content of the videos:

- If you can see a picture, then your HDMI cable is working;
- If it's working, it'll look as good as any picture from any other working HDMI cable;
- Ditto sound;
- Subsequently, if your cable is working on a £5 cable, it'll be giving you as good PQ/SQ as a cable costing £100, £1,000, or even £10,000.
- The only real difference can be in build quality;
- This may affect 3 areas, HDCP, EDID, and durability;
- If you can see/hear what's going on, then HDCP is working (because if it wasn't your components wouldn't handshake, and you'd see, and/or hear nothing);
- If you're not having problems getting EDID functions to work, then that's working, too;
- If you fear that your £5 TESCO HDMI cable may 'break down', it's probably disposable at that price, particularly alongside a £75 'Monster' cable;
- Pound for pound you're better off trying cheap cables first. If they work, you've saved a fortune. If they don't, you've lost only a tiny % of the price of the expensive cable;
- Anyone who says they're getting better PQ/SQ from a more expensive cable is..."mistaken";
- The bloke from Ethereal, whilst extremely candid by other manufacturers' standards, wasn't quite singing from the same hymn sheet as the bloke from DPL;
- Finally, if you're trunking cable (whether HDMI or something else) it's never a bad idea to try to do it in a way that means you can pull through a new cable easily if the old one fails (or whatever).

Is that right, or have I missed something?

Steve W

[JH4]

Interesting thread - I've used 'el cheapo' 1.5 Metre HDMI leads from Sainsburys and also 15 Metre leads that didn't cost a fortune. They all work just fine. No sparklies either. Occasionally the 'handshaking' seems to take several attempts via a Denon amp, but I've proved it has nothing to do with which cable I'm using. Just my 5 pence worth...

[eiren]

I'm going to watch these videos later, but has someone actually had the genius idea of using a meter to see if using different HDMI cables actually does produce different readings/measurements with the same equipment and settings? i.e. does one cable actually produce a 'deeper' red over another, as this is pretty easy to measure.

No need to demo etc... you'll get real World measurements that definitively prove that HDMI cables of differing qualities can affect picture quality.

If AV Forums has done this, then well done Sirs... I salute thee! If not, can we have a Part 4 please Mr Hinton?

[loz]

Originally Posted by eiren

I'm going to watch these videos later, but has someone actually had the genius idea of using a meter to see if using different HDMI cables actually does produce different readings/measurements with the same equipment and settings? i.e. does one cable actually produce a 'deeper' red over another, as this is pretty easy to measure.

No need to demo etc... you'll get real World measurements that definitively prove that HDMI cables of differing qualities can affect picture quality.

well I think it was already discussed in the videos that cables cannot make a difference in that way.

[StuartM]

Ethereal have their $1000 cable, but I think it is only to prove that a cable of that quality can be produced. Most of their cables are competitively priced with those products we know as quality cables in the UK. The main difference is they are prepared to have their cables carefully examined by experts.

I would say that most manufacturers do not let us know if it is a category 1 or 2 cable, many are not even aware of the difference.

If you have a cable and it works then brilliant, but knowing of instances where a change in source has stopped the picture showing and the weak link was a 5m silver series quality cable. When changed with an entry level Ethereal 6m cable it worked.

There are numerous factors that will impact on performance, but with each step in an HDMI chain the signal will degrade, and if you have a cable that just meets specification it may simply not do the job. If you get cables you know are well built and exceed the minimum requirements then they will they help maintain signal integrity and reduce failures.

I was at the events with Jeff Boccaccio and after the event we did some testing of various suppliers cables, and we were surprised at what he showed us. Not only how bad some of the high end cables were but how much improvement could be made with some of the boosters and analysis devices.

I do agree that if you have a simple source to screen 1m or 2m cable you will see no difference but many people now have 1 or 2 sources with a matrix or distribution amp and 4-8 screens and as these steps and distances increase the need for quality cabling is ever increasing!

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by loz

well I think it was already discussed in the videos that cables cannot make a difference in that way.

I don't think that was explicitly stated. When asked about it he said that some people do say they see a difference but all he is concerned with is that it works and gets any picture to the screen. (or words to that effect).

I didn't see in any of the videos where it was said that the PQ could not be varying quality, although it did appear to be hinted at. Unless I missed it.

I am firmly in the camp that believes that if you have a working image/audio, then this can't be improved upon with different HDMI cables. However, I don't think these videos firmly put the argument to bed.

[eiren]

Exactly. It's something that CAN be definitively demonstrated using the appropriate equipment to take measurements.

[JohnWH]

As SteveW already said, it was explicitly stated early in the interview that if you have an HDMI cable that is working then you will not get a better picture, this is entirely correct and consistent with reality.

The thing that concerns me about the scoring methodology is that it can still be used to dupe the consumer into spending far more money than they need to i.e. cable that scores 4 out of 5 may well work in someones system just as well as one that scores 5 out of 5.

John.

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by JohnWH

It was explicitly stated early in the interview that if you have an HDMI cable that is working then you will not get a better picture, this is entirely correct and consistent with reality....

I must have missed that, I'll watch it again. Which of the 3 videos was it?

[JohnWH]

Originally Posted by AV Junkie

I must have missed that, I'll watch it again. Which of the 3 videos was it?

It's in the first video, I think it was in respnse to a question from Phil.

Cheers,
John.

[JohnWH]

Originally Posted by eiren

Exactly. It's something that CAN be definitively demonstrated using the appropriate equipment to take measurements.

No, it can't be measured becuase this type of effect does not and cannot exist.

John.

[eiren]

Originally Posted by JohnWH

No, it can't be measured becuase this type of effect does not and cannot exist.

John.

That's kind of my point

What I am getting at is that by taking some measurements, and creating the appropriate graphs/charts... you can put this discussion to bed once and for all.

I'd rather see some real World data/measurements than someone telling me explicitly that it does or doesn't make a difference.

So can we have a Part 4 please?

[loz]

well I guess it would be nice for someone to demonstrate/prove that the bits that go in are the same bits that come out regardless of what cable is used (providing the cable is working).

If some value of 10101 is input to the cable, then 10101 should come out the other end.

AFAIK HDMI testing equipment exists to perform that test over a cable by generating the input bitstream and then comparing the output bitstream, by matching the bits and looking for errors.

[loz]

Originally Posted by JohnWH

No, it can't be measured becuase this type of effect does not and cannot exist.

John.

well it can be measured that the bits that go in are the bits that come out. Ergo the reds cannot be deeper reds, no matter what your mind or the vendor wants you to believe...

[Pecker]

I notice 'jitter' wasn't mentioned.

Steve W