[Phil Hinton]

Genesis Technologies host AVForums members at a very special high end event at JVC House. The day featured two systems, one with the JVC HD750 projector and anamorphic lens, and the other featuring 3 chip DLP projection and automated screen. After the demonstrations the forum members gave their verdict on the day.


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[Neil Davidson]

Another great video!

I just wanted to say thanks to everyone who gave up their time to come along and experience these systems in action.

The demo rooms are not ideal but do serve to give a taste of what can be achieved.

If anyone has any questions or comments about the systems etc then please post here. I will be monitoring this thread as will a couple of the other guys.

Cheers

[Neil Davidson]

Genesis Technologies Gold Room Kit List

Phil has asked me to list out the kit used in both rooms. To start with this is the list of kit in the Gold Room. Retail price excluding sources is approx £32,000.

Speakers

All speakers at the demo were from the American company Aerial Acoustics
Front Left and Right = Aerial Acoustics LR3
Centre = Aerial Acoustics CC3
Surround Left and Right = Aerial Acoustics Model 5B

Subwoofer = Aerial Acoustics SW12

Audio Electronics

Pre-amplifier = ADA Suite 7.1
Amplifier = ADA PTM-8150 (Only 5 channels used)

Video System

Screen = DNP Supernova ONE Custom 2.35:1 Version with ISF certified fabric

Projector = JVC HD750

2.35:1 System = Genesis Technologies Cinema Widescreen System for JVC HD750

HDMI Cables = DVI Gear SHR

Sources

Blu-ray = Sony PS3
DVD = Kaleidescape 1080P Mini Player (PDF link)

[Neil Davidson]

Genesis Technologies Platinum Room Kit List

This is the list of kit in the Platinum Room. Retail price excluding sources is approx £135,000.

Speakers

All speakers at the demo were from the American company Aerial Acoustics
Front Left, Centre, Right and Subwoofers = Aerial Acoustics System 1 Theatre Wall
Surround Left and Right = Aerial Acoustics Model SR3

Audio Electronics

Pre-amplifier = ADA Cinema Rhapsody Mach III
Amplifier = ADA PTM-8150 (Front 3 channels bi-amped)

EQ and Delay Processing = TiMax II SoundHub

Video System

Screen = DNP Supernova EPIC

Projector = Digital Projection Titan 1080P Reference

2.35:1 System = ISCO III-L with Cineslide motorised sled

HDMI Cables = DVI Gear SHR

Sources

Blu-ray = Sony PS3
DVD = Kaleidescape 1080P Player (PDF link)

[sandstheman]

All the links have a trailing forward slash which is stopping some of them from loading.....

[Neil Davidson]

Originally Posted by sandstheman

All the links have a trailing forward slash which is stopping some of them from loading.....

All fixed now. Sadly work got in the way of me testing the links earlier!

[Simon Crust]

I'd like to extend my thanks to Phil, Neil, the forum members and hosts JVC and Genesis Technologies for what was a very enjoyable day looking at what can be achieved in the home cinema market.

The Gold room, featuring the JVC 750, was a terrific eye opener, and whilst not 'entry level' per se was a formidable set up and one that is very achievable; loved the cooling breeze from the sub

The Platinum (premium) room was out of this world but largely unattainable for us mere mortals, but an experience none the less.

Top day, top video, top systems, top blokes, what more can you ask for.

Regards

Simon

[AngelEyes]

I'll add my thanks too, fantastic day, I really enjoyed it.

I think the two things that stood out for me were the amazing results good quality EQ can provide in what are far from ideal rooms and how 'quiet' good quality systems can sound at reference level. I listen at reference level at home quite a bit and is is quite draining. I could have sat in the Platinum room all day long at the same volume, incredible.

Both rooms were potentially very lively with suspended metal floors. In the Gold room the subwoofer had us shaking in our seats, I suspect the use of spikes pretty much coupled the sub to the floor and shook our sofa about quite easily, some might like this but I wasn't that keen as it adds a directional element to the bass. The surround effects were also slightly overblown, not necessarily in volume but individual effects were less distinct. It also sounded quite loud.

The platinum room with its sophisticated EQ was easier to listen too, even at reference level. The subwoofers (although different to the Gold room to be fair) were much better integrated and we had none of the issues with the floor being excited (due to the in-wall) design.

Despite the volume levels being set at reference in both rooms, the Platinum room was a much 'quieter' experience (in a good way), all the detail was there and the impact but far less fatiguing. Everything just sounded cleaner and more defined. Despite trying to listen hard and looking flaws in the picture, I found myself drawn in and simply enjoying the experience.

It would have been great to have the Gold room setup with a lower end EQ device such as the Ausyssey Pro, as I think that would have given us all a much better idea of what was available at that budget.

On the Visual side of things it was far easier to compare and the Platinum room was such a big leap in quality and automation, you really knew you were in an expensive Home Cinema. The screen was really something to behold, curved and automatically masked to match the aspect ratio of all the source material, it really was amazing.

I was very impressed with how the JVC compared to the 'Professional' projector, it wasn't ever going to compete but to my untrained eye it offered the kind of performance I would be extremely happy with at home, although I suspect the excellent screen (same material in both rooms) helped get the most from the JVC.

Again a big thanks to Neil for the invitation, to Phil for editing away the worst of my stage fright induced gibberings and everyone at JVC and Genesis Technologies for their time and assistance. It was also a pleasure to meet the other forum members and hearing thier views on the kit as we all seemed to have a slightly different 'area of expertise'. It was a real eye opener

Adam Parrish

[Pecker]

The hits just keep on coming.

Well done to all concerned.

Neil, just one thing on the kit - what were the screen sizes? They looked hugely impressive!

Steve W

[Basil Plumley]

Originally Posted by Pecker

Neil, just one thing on the kit - what were the screen sizes? They looked hugely impressive!
Steve W

They were!! Very good indeed. The only problem I have with viewing these set ups is the fact that I have to come home to my "normal" system...

Great day was has by all - thanks to Phil and Stuart for setting it up and Neil for hosting the event - looking forward to meeting you "properly - (ie over a beer...) in November at the same place (If you're going to be there that is...)

It was great to finally meet some forum members who I wasn't buying something from/selling something to...

Biggest lesson I took away was the fact that no matter how much I spend in the classifieds, I'll never achieve perfection - my room just won't let me - oh - and the fact that I DON'T actually know everything...

[AngelEyes]

A question for Neil...

Is there a single component in the chain that contributes the most to that smooth 'I could listen at reference level for hours' feeling?

I suspect it is going to be a combination of components (unfortunately) but would like to focus on this 'feeling' for my next upgrades and wonder what you would recommend?

Thanks.

Adam

[Basil Plumley]

Originally Posted by AngelEyes

A question for Neil...

Is there a single component in the chain that contributes the most to that smooth 'I could listen at reference level for hours' feeling?

I suspect it is going to be a combination of components (unfortunately) but would like to focus on this 'feeling' for my next upgrades and wonder what you would recommend?

Thanks.

Adam

Did you win the lottery then!!??

[AngelEyes]

Originally Posted by Brian Day

Did you win the lottery then!!??

No but I love living in a fantasy world

Adam

[Basil Plumley]

Me too - when I watch a film now, if I stick my fingers in my ears and shut my eyes really tight, I'm back in that premium room!

[Neil Davidson]

Originally Posted by Pecker

Neil, just one thing on the kit - what were the screen sizes? They looked hugely impressive!

Excellent, lots of good questions to answer - please keep them coming!

In the Gold Room, the DNP Supernova ONE screen was a custom 2.35:1 aspect ratio, with viewable area 2657mm wide.

In the Platinum Room, the DNP Supernova Epic was a 2.40:1 aspect ratio with viewable area 3095mm wide

These are big screens but by no means the biggest that we work with.

[Pecker]

Originally Posted by Neil Davidson

Excellent, lots of good questions to answer - please keep them coming!

In the Gold Room, the DNP Supernova ONE screen was a custom 2.35:1 aspect ratio, with viewable area 2657mm wide.

In the Platinum Room, the DNP Supernova Epic was a 2.40:1 aspect ratio with viewable area 3095mm wide

These are big screens but by no means the biggest that we work with.

My screen at home is 234cm wide (16:9), so even though it's a bit smaller, in this area at least I'm not too far behind.

Just another £199,999.99 to go.

Steve W

[Pecker]

Just watched this again, and of particular note were the comments a couple of minutes from the end from Nic and Simon. Nic seemed to think the video wasn't such a big step up in the second room, but that the sound was far better, whilst Simon felt the opposite (sorry if I've misunderstood that - happy to be put right if I've got the wrong end of the stick).

I wonder why this is. Maybe something to do with expectations, or preferences (I suppose the balance between PQ & SQ will be different for different people), or possibly even due to your kit at home.

Also, it'd be very interesting to hear how the cheaper speakers sounded with EQ vs the more expensive ones without, to see whether it was the EQ or the quality of the speakers making the biggest difference.

Steve W

[AngelEyes]

Originally Posted by Pecker

Just watched this again, and of particular note were the comments a couple of minutes from the end from Nic and Simon. Nic seemed to think the video wasn't such a big step up in the second room, but that the sound was far better, whilst Simon felt the opposite (sorry if I've misunderstood that - happy to be put right if I've got the wrong end of the stick).

I wonder why this is. Maybe something to do with expectations, or preferences (I suppose the balance between PQ & SQ will be different for different people), or possibly even due to your kit at home.

Also, it'd be very interesting to hear how the cheaper speakers sounded with EQ vs the more expensive ones without, to see whether it was the EQ or the quality of the speakers making the biggest difference.

Steve W

I think a lot of it is to do with people tastes (and possible to do with seating position, especially in the Gold room). The Gold room was very 'in your face' and arguably more exciting but the surrounds seemed a bit loud to me. It was good but the Platinum room seemed more subtle to my ears.

The bass in the Platinum room was a little restrained and not to my taste, I like to feel the bass in my chest and the subs in the platinum didn't seem to dig all that deep. The SW12 in the Gold room though, was an animal and although it wasn't as well integrated I think it has the potential to sound amazing when positioned /setup correctly.

If there was one thing I came away from the day wanting to play with a lot more it was the SW12. I am a bit of a bass head and was surprised that the relatively small driver area and modest specifications delivered so much energy. Awsome piece of kit

Adam

[Neil Davidson]

Originally Posted by AngelEyes

Is there a single component in the chain that contributes the most to that smooth 'I could listen at reference level for hours' feeling?

Sadly the answer is lot more complicated than just a single component but the key contributing factor to listening fatigue is much easier to define - distortion!

Elsewhere Steve posted that he was raised on the theory that get your sources right first and the rest will follow, I attack the problem from the opposite direction though starting with the room and working back down the chain.

The reason for this is pretty simple, the room is probably the biggest source of audible distortion followed by the speakers, then amps and so on down the chain.

The two rooms at JVC were both pretty terrible, floating floors, suspended ceilings and hard walls with non symmetrical finish. The gross distortions to the sound caused by these factors would outweigh issues from even the very worst CD player.

In the platinum room, the sound had been corrected (by ear only the guys later told me) with EQ and they had nipped out the worst of the room resonances. There was none of this in the gold room.

The system 1 speakers used in the platinum room are 4ohm 93dB sensistivity jobs which had the best part of 500W per channel driving them. Even then there was still compression effects at the top end when run at reference. Turning the volume down by just two dB on the preamp cured most of this leading us to conclude that the power supply in the relatively small multichannel power amp we were using had reached saturation point. Literally nothing left to give even though the amp modules could have used more.

In the gold room the LR3 speakers are 4-6ohm and 86dB sensitivity with just 250W per channel supplied. This means the amp simply had to work much harder to reach the same SPL level. Combined with no EQ that certainly led to a much harsher top end. You needed to take 5-6dB out on the preamp to get back in line but then it was too quiet for our purposes

So to come back to the original question, I would do what I could for the room, make sure that my speakers could produce a good sound without harsh treble and were as efficient as possible, get myself a poweramp with half decent power supplies and invest in the best EQ I could get.

For a lot of people EQ would make the biggest single improvement, certainly if they have the money to get Graham to set it up! A lot of the time though, this will be a band aid to problems elsewhere in the system.

[Neil Davidson]

Need to type faster...

I suggest an experiment for readers of this thread, especially those with Japanese AV receivers at home (which is me too).

Using a dynamic scene (Madagascar on Casino Royale for example) crank up the volume to reference. No doubt it will sound very loud and shrill and possibly quite annoying. Watch the scene a few times backing off on the volume until things start to sound right again. I suspect that in most cases this will mean coming back to -7 to -10dB.

People are scared of reference level but, especially in the first seconds of the Madagascar scene, it should be no louder than two people having a normal conversation. When the gun fires it should clearly be much louder but only for a fraction of a second. Listen for the dynamics of that small clip in particular to get a feel if the receiver is running flat out or not.

The other great passge in that scene is where the gas canister explodes. The amps are already being driven hard with the music and then you get this big boom that will just go flat if there no more headroom. Interested how people get on with that one.

[AngelEyes]

Thanks Neil, after playing with EQ for a few years now I certainly share your sentiments that the room is the biggest hurdle to decent sound.

The biggest problem I seem to face is that Audyssey XT (in my room) nueters the bass and putting it back in with the SMS-1 removes too much overhead from the sub resulting in less slam. With No EQ at all the sub is revitalised but the room modes are all too apparent and of course the top end is too harsh.

I don't know whether it is my speakers that are the problem with the top end (M&K 850s) but even when I was running an Arcam P7 it didn't seem to offer any noticeable benefits over the Onkyo's internal amps at reference level. It seems whatever power I throw at them they are just too fatiguing at high volume.

Adam

[Pecker]

Originally Posted by Neil Davidson

Elsewhere Steve posted that he was raised on the theory that get your sources right first and the rest will follow, I attack the problem from the opposite direction though starting with the room and working back down the chain.

You've got a good memory.

This was certainly the theory in the '80's, and one I mainly baulked against. When I demoed for my first real hi-fi in about '88 (c.£1300 - maybe a little less) I was told to buy a Linn LP12 for c.£1,000, a £200 amp and a £100 pair of speakers - this was the theory put round by all the dealers and hi-fi mags at the time.

I ended up with a Linn Axis, an Audiolab 8000A and a pair of Epos ES14s. They were pretty much the same price as each other, and sounded a better balanced system to me.

I think what you've said sums it up, Neil. Any chain is only a strong as its weakest link, whether that's source, room, or anything in between.

Nonetheless, it's certainly still true to say that if your source doesn't life the initial information off the disc, it can't be accurately re-invented later.

Steve W

[Basil Plumley]

Originally Posted by Neil Davidson

Need to type faster...

I suggest an experiment for readers of this thread, especially those with Japanese AV receivers at home (which is me too).

Using a dynamic scene (Madagascar on Casino Royale for example) crank up the volume to reference. No doubt it will sound very loud and shrill and possibly quite annoying. Watch the scene a few times backing off on the volume until things start to sound right again. I suspect that in most cases this will mean coming back to -7 to -10dB.

People are scared of reference level but, especially in the first seconds of the Madagascar scene, it should be no louder than two people having a normal conversation. When the gun fires it should clearly be much louder but only for a fraction of a second. Listen for the dynamics of that small clip in particular to get a feel if the receiver is running flat out or not.

The other great passge in that scene is where the gas canister explodes. The amps are already being driven hard with the music and then you get this big boom that will just go flat if there no more headroom. Interested how people get on with that one.

When you played that clip in the room, was it PCM or DD 5.1? Will that make a difference...? I would imagine the lossless track "should" be more dynamic...

[Pecker]

Originally Posted by Brian Day

When you played that clip in the room, was it PCM or DD 5.1? Will that make a difference...? I would imagine the lossless track "should" be more dynamic...

Brian, that's a funny thing. I clicked on the links Neil posted in the equipment list, and the pre-amps don't appear to have any HDMI ins. They had analogue ins, but the PS3 has no analogue outs.

I think I've probably missed something, though (something between PS3 and pre-amp?).

Steve W

[Neil Davidson]

Originally Posted by Pecker

Brian, that's a funny thing. I clicked on the links Neil posted in the equipment list, and the pre-amps don't appear to have any HDMI ins. They had analogue ins, but the PS3 has no analogue outs.

I think I've probably missed something, though (something between PS3 and pre-amp?).

Nope nothing missed! We were running good old bog standard dolby digital over optical from the PS3! The new ADA processors with 8 HDMI in and 2 HDMI out are not coming out until after CES in January.

Funny that not one person even hinted at that issue during the entire week of demos!

[Pecker]

Originally Posted by Neil Davidson

Nope nothing missed! We were running good old bog standard dolby digital over optical from the PS3! The new ADA processors with 8 HDMI in and 2 HDMI out are not coming out until after CES in January.

Funny that not one person even hinted at that issue during the entire week of demos!

WOW!

Very interesting indeed.

Steve 'Misses Nowt' W

[Basil Plumley]

Originally Posted by Neil Davidson

Nope nothing missed! We were running good old bog standard dolby digital over optical from the PS3! The new ADA processors with 8 HDMI in and 2 HDMI out are not coming out until after CES in January.

Funny that not one person even hinted at that issue during the entire week of demos!

Is that a good thing or a bad thing...?

I was actually going to say something but my jaw was on the floor and I couldn't speak for the dribble...

[Simon Crust]

To be fair to us, the demo clips were chosen for us and none had the HD sound format options; and during the Blu-ray viewing we were lucky enough to have, I think, we were more interested in how the picture was performing - doesn't take away that one of us should have asked about HD sound

Simon

[Pecker]

Originally Posted by Simon Crust

To be fair to us, the demo clips were chosen for us and none had the HD sound format options; and during the Blu-ray viewing we were lucky enough to have, I think, we were more interested in how the picture was performing - doesn't take away that one of us should have asked about HD sound

Simon

Not at all - if the sound was that good why would you ask?

I think it shows just how good the compressed formats can be.

Here's a thing I've often thought about AV. You watched the clips and listened to the sound. Did it blow you all away? Yes, apparently it did.

Now if you'd then been played the HD track you might have noticed an improvement. But in some ways, why bother. If you're happy with what you've got, why go looking for weaknesses?

As this test proves, even with a £135,000 system there's always an upgrade coming round at the next CES.

Steve W

[AngelEyes]

It is worth noting that we were all fully aware we were watching SD material (Video & Audio) throughout the demo appart from a single HD trailer for the incredible Hulk, which I thought was the weakest soundtrack of them all and quite obviously not HD. We then gave the Video interviews and later went back and were given some HD demos with Casino Royale.

So all the comments on the video reflect our experience of SD audio whilst being fully aware it was SD.

Saying that I didn't think the Casino Royale clip we were shown later on sounded 'SD', in fact it sounded great... shame we couldn't have heard both versions

Adam