[Phil Hinton]

Tony Lazzarini (TLC) and Dominic Feeney (Pioneer) round up their thoughts on the event held at TLC Broadcast on 13th September, to see the new Pioneer KRP screens.


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[kingfats]

Great video Phil excellent work.....cheers.
All the best.

[witham]

Great insight, thank you Phil. Just figured out what my next upgrade will be...

[lord-dudester]

these video's are doing my head in! i just want new kit all the time now!!!

those screens look cracking...

continued thanks for the top quality vids!

[MIB]

Another great video Phil. Very impressed with the recent AVforums exclusives.

Keep up the good work

[Pecker]

That was one of the best videos yet.

Just a thought. If the PURE mode is so close straight out of the box, will ISF calibrators be offering their services to a discount - after all, Pioneer have made their job that much easier, and less time-consuming...








































...I'll get me coat.



Steve W

[av addict]

great video Phil ,great to watch---keep up the good work

[Pecker]

A quick question for Phil and the team. I've clearly got my thick head on today (what's new?), but here we go.

In PURE mode the Pioneer is supposed to be very accurate. But accurate for what?

What I'm getting at is that if you watch the ISF Part 1 video we're told that every source needs to be calibrated sperately. The settings for your Sky HD box will be different to your PS3, and different again for your Oppo upscaler.

So what was used to measure PURE mode here? If it was (for example) a PS3, then those settings will be wrong for your Oppo, and different again for your Sky box, and so on.

Have I missed something?

Cheers.

Steve W

[Phil Hinton]

Originally Posted by Pecker

A quick question for Phil and the team. I've clearly got my thick head on today (what's new?), but here we go.

In PURE mode the Pioneer is supposed to be very accurate. But accurate for what?

What I'm getting at is that if you watch the ISF Part 1 video we're told that every source needs to be calibrated sperately. The settings for your Sky HD box will be different to your PS3, and different again for your Oppo upscaler.

So what was used to measure PURE mode here? If it was (for example) a PS3, then those settings will be wrong for your Oppo, and different again for your Sky box, and so on.

Have I missed something?

Cheers.

Steve W

All the TVs and projectors sent for review are measured with a calibrated Sencore VP401 pattern generator as an input signal. This provides an accurate input to the device which is then measured to see what the TV is doing in out of the box settings. It is also used to calibrate the TV correctly. You then calibrate the sources as part of the ISF route. Where the generator comes in handy is with sources that cannot produce a test pattern such as a Sky box, it gives a starting point for those sources.

The Pioneers PURE mode is accurate to industry standards as an out of the box global setting. You are right that each source has to then be calibrated with the TV on different inputs, but usually this is easy to do. What we are looking at is by using a calibrated instrument we can see what the display device is doing with it, the Pioneer is the only TV I have ever measured that gets close to being accurate out of the box. That doesn't mean that you don't need an ISF calibration with the pure mode, indeed the fine tuning is still required with sources and gamut and greyscale. However not as much work as say the 5090 which needs a little more care and attention as it doesn't have the pure mode preset.

So it is quite correct to assume that the Pioneer 500A (and M) are pretty much broadcast standard reference out of the box and with fine tuning, extremely accurate to the industry standards for film and TV reproduction (Playback).

Hope that helps.

[Pecker]

That helps a lot Phil, thanks.

I wonder if anyone else here is thinking what I'm thinking.

If Pioneer (and well done to them) can do this with the display, why the bloomin' 'eck can't high end manufacturers like Denon do it with their sources?

The marriage of the two would surely then be plug and play.

If you're spending that much on a TV, and that much on a Blu-ray Disc player, surely it's not too much to expect.

Steve W

[Phil Hinton]

Originally Posted by Pecker

That helps a lot Phil, thanks.

I wonder if anyone else here is thinking what I'm thinking.

If Pioneer (and well done to them) can do this with the display, why the bloomin' 'eck can't high end manufacturers like Denon do it with their sources?

The marriage of the two would surely then be plug and play.

If you're spending that much on a TV, and that much on a Blu-ray Disc player, surely it's not too much to expect.

Steve W

The problem is that you can only get so far with these types of settings or presets. You have to allow for variances in components (sometimes as high as 10%) and as such you will never have a truely accurate plug and play environment. Which is why the ISF guys will still be important to call on for many years to come, even with sets as good as the Pioneers.
What we do need to see in this country is dealers who can offer the full service including ISF calibration as part of the sales process and included in the price. Maybe companies like Pioneer can insist that their reference screens are only sold by dealers who provide the service as part of the sale, i.e. you pay the price of the screen and after 200 hours they come out and ISF to your sources and room as part of that initial price? That would be far more worthwhile a service I feel.

[Pecker]

Originally Posted by Phil Hinton

The problem is that you can only get so far with these types of settings or presets. You have to allow for variances in components (sometimes as high as 10%) and as such you will never have a truely accurate plug and play environment. Which is why the ISF guys will still be important to call on for many years to come, even with sets as good as the Pioneers.
What we do need to see in this country is dealers who can offer the full service including ISF calibration as part of the sales process and included in the price. Maybe companies like Pioneer can insist that their reference screens are only sold by dealers who provide the service as part of the sale, i.e. you pay the price of the screen and after 200 hours they come out and ISF to your sources and room as part of that initial price? That would be far more worthwhile a service I feel.

Phil, at last, after nearly 4 years at AVF, I find someone singing from the same hymn sheet.

When I first got into AV it was through an excellent hi-fi shop in York called The Sound Organisation. I had a choice to either buy the products I wanted elsewhere cheaply, or pay r.r.p. (as it was called then) and get the customer service. I went for the latter, and despite getting a relatively modest system (Linn Axis, Audiolab 8000A, Epos ES14s) they came to my house and set everything up, including drilling the holes in the wall and putting up the wall-mounted turntable stand. I didn't pay a penny more than list price for the items purchased.

I find it amazing that there are organisations who'll come round to your house and sell you a multi-thousand pound projector, grand + a Denon Blu-ray Disc player, and several thousand pounds worth of audio kit, but will still stick £200 or £300 extra on the bill to ISF your kit.

Steve W

[Phil Hinton]

Originally Posted by Pecker

I find it amazing that there are organisations who'll come round to your house and sell you a multi-thousand pound projector, grand + a Denon Blu-ray Disc player, and several thousand pounds worth of audio kit, but will still stick £200 or £300 extra on the bill to ISF your kit.

Steve W

Yeah, that would be an advantage, however who pays for the training and the huge costs of kitting out with calibration gear? It needs a forward thinking manufacturer working with their best dealers and supplying the kit to meet the challenge. I won't hold my breath!

[Pecker]

Originally Posted by Phil Hinton

Yeah, that would be an advantage, however who pays for the training and the huge costs of kitting out with calibration gear? It needs a forward thinking manufacturer working with their best dealers and supplying the kit to meet the challenge. I won't hold my breath!

Hi Phil, and thanks again.

In layman's terms could you quantify that cost? Let's say a dealer wants to do this, how much would the necessary equipment cost, and how much for the ISF training sessions & exam fees, very roughly?

Steve W

[Phil Hinton]

Originally Posted by Pecker

Hi Phil, and thanks again.

In layman's terms could you quantify that cost? Let's say a dealer wants to do this, how much would the necessary equipment cost, and how much for the ISF training sessions & exam fees, very roughly?

Steve W

Probably just under £10k all in for someone to get set up with the kit and training etc.

[Pecker]

Originally Posted by Phil Hinton

Probably just under £10k all in for someone to get set up with the kit and training etc.

Looking at your original idea (Pioneer setting it up), I suppose they'd get the kit cheaper (at cost?) and maybe even get the courses cheaper.

Still a lot of brass, though.

Steve W

[Neil Davidson]

Ahem,

Perhaps slightly overdoing the costs there Phil ;-)

To get a similar kit to what Phil is talking about here (Specifically Probes plus signal generator) and to get ISf training is less than £6k inc VAT. It can of course be a bit cheaper or a bit more expensive depending on the choice of probes and training.

Anyone interested in calibration training should check ISF goes Europe ! for more info.

[Phil Hinton]

Originally Posted by Neil Davidson

Ahem,

Perhaps slightly overdoing the costs there Phil ;-)

To get a similar kit to what Phil is talking about here (Specifically Probes plus signal generator) and to get ISf training is less than £6k inc VAT. It can of course be a bit cheaper or a bit more expensive depending on the choice of probes and training.

Anyone interested in calibration training should check ISF goes Europe ! for more info.

Sorry Neil, basing that on the Sencore gear.

[Pecker]

Sorry for drifting this off topic a little.

I understand there are different levels of sensors - they're of varying degrees of accuracy. Is there a law of diminishing returns?

Compare say an amateur's Spyder2 to the two you mention above. Is the S2 so inaccurate that it's not worth bothering with? How close can it get?

Can you put a %age on it?

Cheers - I'm finding this thread very helpful and informative.

Steve W

[Fred Quimby]

Thank you for the time and effort you put in,in producing the video.

[Pecker]

A question for those who've seen this plasma:

60" Plasma vs Projector

Steve W