[Phil Hinton]

Phil takes us through the PT-AE4000 projector and it's 2.35:1 zoom features including the auto zoom set up.


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[IAN P]

Cheers Phil. Simple, yet very handy function.

[Pecker]

Panasonic really should be congratulated for this innovation. They should trumpet the fact that you don't lose subtitles in the lower black bar.

Why don't more manufacturers use this function?

Steve W

[Phil Hinton]

Originally Posted by Pecker

They should trumpet the fact that you don't lose subtitles in the lower black bar.

Steve W

Where are you getting that from? If there are subtitles in the black bars on 2.40:1 material they will disappear from the screen when zoomed out. Only way to move the subtitles is the same with an anamorphic approach and to use a Bd player like the latest Philips model that allows you to move the subtitles.

[Pecker]

Originally Posted by Phil Hinton

Where are you getting that from? If there are subtitles in the black bars on 2.40:1 material they will disappear from the screen when zoomed out. Only way to move the subtitles is the same with an anamorphic approach and to use a Bd player like the latest Philips model that allows you to move the subtitles.

Phil, when a 2.35:1 disc is re-scaled so that it can be un-squashed by an anamorphic lens the lower subtitles disappear forever - they no longer exist, and are not being projected.

However, when you zoom to fill a 2.35:1 screen the subs are still projected. At least one forum member does this and (if I remember correctly) places something at the bottom of his screen so the subs can still be seen.

The Philips is an oddity. At the moment it's the only player on the market that can do this, and it's not clear that is can handle all subs (they are, apparently, encoded in different ways, and the Philips may not handle them all).

But ultimately that's not particularly relevant. You can't - or should I say shouldn't - just 'cut' subs from the lower black bar and 'paste' them in the picture. Subtitling is a craft in itself, and requires careful positioning, timing, colouring, etc. Placing white subs on a (potentially) white background is extremely bad practice, but is likely to happen sooner or later if you move subs around in a way not intended when the disc was authored.

If you watch a subtitled film you'll sometimes see that the subs appear in different part of the picture to ensure the colour of the subs don't clash with the background (one film that springs to mind is the Korean monster movie Gwoemul [The Host]). One of the reasons subs are sometimes placed in the lower black bars is to prevent both the clashes of colour and the need to move subs up and down the screen.

The key word here Phil is 'standards'. Films are subtitled to set standards, and home users fiddle with the results to their peril.



Steve W

[Phil Hinton]

Originally Posted by Pecker

Phil, when a 2.35:1 disc is re-scaled so that it can be un-squashed by an anamorphic lens the lower subtitles disappear forever - they no longer exist, and are not being projected.

Well aware of that fact mate.

However, when you zoom to fill a 2.35:1 screen the subs are still projected. At least one forum member does this and (if I remember correctly) places something at the bottom of his screen so the subs can still be seen.

That is one way around the issue if the subs are in the black bars.

The Philips is an oddity. At the moment it's the only player on the market that can do this, and it's not clear that is can handle all subs (they are, apparently, encoded in different ways, and the Philips may not handle them all).

Not sure about the encoding as I don't work in that field. But I know a Guy who does and works on such films. I'm sure he would be able to give a definitive answer. I have not tested the Philips either but as most subs are added and not burnt to the print it may be the start of a whole host of players. As manufacturers are pushing anamorphic (every new projector has the means) and some own production facilities for encoding (Sony & Panasonic spring to mind) we might finally see a solution to the issue that keeps all users happy.

But ultimately that's not particularly relevant. You can't - or should I say shouldn't - just 'cut' subs from the lower black bar and 'paste' them in the picture. Subtitling is a craft in itself, and requires careful positioning, timing, colouring, etc. Placing white subs on a (potentially) white background is extremely bad practice, but is likely to happen sooner or later if you move subs around in a way not intended when the disc was authored.

Again perhaps David can jump in here with his authoring and subtitling experience on the films he works on. We are looking at solutions not reasons not to change.

The key word here Phil is 'standards'. Films are subtitled to set standards, and home users fiddle with the results to their peril.

Not really. When shown theatrically the subs are usually burnt to the print so they show up in the correct aspect ratio. So there is obviously a standard for that, why not transfer it to the disc authoring. What they do at the moment is more about convience than any standard. Like I say, they manage it with the print at the correct aspect ratio, why not use the graphics layer to have them the same as the print? Keeps everyone happy.

In fact all 1.85:1 films with subs have them at the same place when authored to disc but using the graphics in the majority of cases over burnt in subs. And a 2.40:1 film with subs in the cinema has the subs over the image. It is only when a 2.40:1 film is transferred to disc do they 'mess' with the sub placement and put the graphics in what they see as dead space. Hardly a standard, more an easy way to do things. Nothing stopping them adding the subs back to the original image.

[Pecker]

Originally Posted by Phil Hinton

That is one way around the issue if the subs are in the black bars.

That is the only fool-proof way round it, which is why I thought Panasonic should trumpet it.

Originally Posted by Phil Hinton

Not really. When shown theatrically the subs are usually burnt to the print so they show up in the correct aspect ratio. So there is obviously a standard for that, why not transfer it to the disc authoring. What they do at the moment is more about convience than any standard. Like I say, they manage it with the print at the correct aspect ratio, why not use the graphics layer to have them the same as the print? Keeps everyone happy.

I agree, but it's the difference between 'is' and 'ought', Phil.

When you ask why they don't just put them in the same place/style/colour as at the cinema, I agree. But they don't. Not always, anyway.

You and I can agree all we want on what they should do, but if they don't do that we're left with what we have. And what we have on some films is white subs in the lower black bars and in some scenes) a white bottom portion to the film which will make the subs disappear if you just cut and paste them on to the picture.

There really is no way of getting away from that.

I'm sure your friend will confirm that, when designing subs, the person authoring them must take into account the colour of the subs, the colour of the background, the font, the size of the font, how literally the language is translated, whether repeated phrases need to be translated more than once, the effect of the length and ease of what is read on the viewer's experience of the film, the positioning of the subs, the timing of the changes between subs (based partially on how easily & hence quickly the subs can be read, in part dependent on the previous points), and so on. I'm sure some subtitlers would throw a bluey if they knew someone was just taking subs from the black bar and plonking them without thought on the picture.

Originally Posted by Pecker

Not really.

I think you'll fine it's "Yes! Really!"

Guidance on Standards for Subtitling: General Requirements for Subtitle Display

http://www-scf.usc.edu/~uscsmpte/DCI...em_Spec_v1.pdf

The latter includes SMPTE's standards for digital cinema subtitling.



Steve W