Toshiba xxWH36 RPTVs - No PAL Prog

Dimmy · 12-09-2003, 8:01 PM

Not sure if this is Old News, but I just received an email from Toshiba stating that the new WH36 series of RPTVs are only NTSC progressive compatible

Bummer for us!

12-09-2003, 8:06 PM

Shame. Although I guess if your collection consists of region 1 DVD's I guess it doesn't matter.

Unless we need PAL Progressive for other sources. Does terrestrial or Freeview TV need de-interlacing?

I'm sure I saw 625P in the user manual though!

clancol · 12-09-2003, 8:25 PM

i thought that all proggressive stuff was done onboard a the dvd player. What does the tv have to do to accept ntscPS thats different from pal PS
also if the dvd player has a PSconverter like the marants DV4300 would that make pal dvd's output NTSC PS

acucobol · 12-09-2003, 9:19 PM

Boo!
I just ordered a 42wh36p 2 days ago. Does not really affect me though as I mainly buy R1.
Is this the definitive answer, or just Toshiba saying it is not 'offically' supported?

Demon · 12-09-2003, 11:40 PM

The german site states "PAL and NTSC"... I've ordered the 50wh36p.. I was happy with the 50wh18B I had, so I guess it ain't the end of the world...

Dimmy · 13-09-2003, 8:39 AM

Well this is simply what Toshiba said in their email. They emailed me a list of the specifications but before the list they said "The Televisions are only NTSC Progressive Compatible".

I have no Region 1 DVDs and only a few Region Free NTSC DVDs, and generally get irrate by the 'Judder' of NTSC discs.

13-09-2003, 8:54 AM

Do you think it's worth selling my 42PW23P and buying the 42xx46B model?

I'm sitting quite close to the set- about 2M. Scan lines aren't too bad, mainly jaggies that annoy me (occasionally), mainly shows up on Futurama slows pans/slow zooming in scenes. Judder isn't too bad either, although I guess that and the removal of scan lines if I get progressive will overall help.

Oh I'll also order the Tosh 900E at the same time. Is the de-interlacer in it any good?

My collection consists of purely Region 1 DVD's.

Or do you think I should wait until HDTV's come out with DVI inputs?

Boris Blank · 13-09-2003, 9:36 AM

Wait. What we need is a set that does 720p and that can only be a year away at most.

You have a good set and its enough for now.

With HDTV now definately on the visible horizon, its only a matter of time before one or other of the manufacturers produce an HDTV ready set (720p, DVI equipped).

Hang in there mate, its difficult I know. I almost went for the new Toshibas but any set bought now will NOT give a 720p display and thats what we REALLY WANT

Paul

13-09-2003, 9:46 AM

Yeah thought so. Just like another opinion whether it's worth it. It's just so annoying when you see the US RP's. DVI, two sets of component, colour correction, HTDV, coffee maker etc.

It's a shame CRT FP are so large; I would love one but have no space. I would not consider LCD projection due to mainly heat soak problems. Although I guess if you only have it only a few hours a week it should be OK? I take it LCD PJ's are HDTV spec? PAL & NTSC Progressive? It'll certainly free up floorspace. Allowing me to have the Storm and a SVS in the space where the RP is. They are tempting.

Dimmy · 13-09-2003, 9:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by nathan_silly
Do you think it's worth selling my 42PW23P and buying the 42xx46B model?

The internal de-interlacers on Toshiba TVs work pretty damn well anyway, and if you've a fair measure of R1 DVDs then all should bode well (I personally wouldn't be able to watch R1 DVDs in interlaced, so I don't know how you're managing now).

And the 42xx46B??? Haven't heard that one...

Quote:

Originally posted by nathan_silly
Oh I'll also order the Tosh 900E at the same time. Is the de-interlacer in it any good?

My collection consists of purely Region 1 DVD's.

The De-Interlacer in the Tosh 900E is very good indeed, but, depending on how much money you can get it for, I don't know if it's worth spending four times as much on it as - say - a Tosh 520E, which also gives a stunning picture. Don't get me wrong, the Tosh 900E is an excellent piece of kit, and I've seen it around for £300 SH, but there's every chance you'll be blown away by the 520E with NTSC Progressive signals anyway, and at around £170 it's definitely worth the money (and descent value).

One thing the Tosh 900E doesn't do well (which I found out the hard way), is PAL/NTSC Progressive Conversion (i.e. PAL signals converted to NTSC then de-interlaced. But since you're a R1 DVD buff anyway this shouldn't really matter).

If you can get a good price for your 42PW23P then you'll be well away, as the 42WH36 is showing up on Price Runner at just £1003-ish.

N.B. - I was also blown away by the new Toshiba 42PW33P, the replacement for your current TV, so I'd say either would make a worthy upgrade.

Dimmy · 13-09-2003, 9:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by nathan_silly
Or do you think I should wait until HDTV's come out with DVI inputs?

You'll be waiting for one hell of a long time

Dimmy · 13-09-2003, 9:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by nathan_silly
Although I guess if you only have it only a few hours a week it should be OK? I take it LCD PJ's are HDTV spec? PAL & NTSC Progressive? It'll certainly free up floorspace. Allowing me to have the Storm and a SVS in the space where the RP is. They are tempting.

The problem with LCD is it's not great at replacing a TV - depending on how much of it you watch. If you're an Avid TV viewer than you'll probably be better of sticking with your current crop of CRT RPTVs.

The new Sanyo PLV-Z2 (£1400) is HDTV & 720p spec, and supports both PAL & NTSC progressive, and is looking very promising indeed.

13-09-2003, 10:28 AM

I guess some interlaced effects bother more than others... In order of the things that annoy me most (on any display)

1) Damaged LCD panels (heat soak)
2) PAL 50hz flicker on R2 DVD's on my set.
3) Mpeg artifacts- blocking, Plasma gradients
4) Terrible CRT geometry
5) Large dead/lit pixels
6) Poor blacks (LCD)
7) Jaggies
8) Scan lines
9) Convergence/focus.
10) NTSC judder.
11) Minor CRT geometry.

I don't watch TV anymore so I guess a LCD PJ is a viable alternative. Watch 1 film a day, and maybe a couple of animated DVD's (Simpsons, Futurama etc)

Boris Blank · 13-09-2003, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by nathan_silly
Yeah thought so. Just like another opinion whether it's worth it. It's just so annoying when you see the US RP's. DVI, two sets of component, colour correction, HTDV, coffee maker etc.

LOL, so true.

They are also a hint of things to come!

Sorry Dimmy, I think we'll see the sets within a year. Remember, all we need is a DVI 720p input and that will allow connection to CURRENT DVD players/HTPC's and will also be compatible with any future HDTV set-top boxes (and likely HD-DVD).

We may not have broadcast HDTV yet but the key to getting it is DVI/720p equipped set and the technology is a fairly minor leap above current sets.
Paul

Dimmy · 13-09-2003, 10:32 AM

That's a thought - if you're not using a Dimly Lit viewing room or (preferably) a rather dark viewing room than you may aswell forget LCD Projection already.

If it were my money, I'd buy the RPTV, simply because it gives the better picture and it's the 'easier' option.

Dimmy · 13-09-2003, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by PaulB
LOL, so true.

They are also a hint of things to come!

Sorry Dimmy, I think we'll see the sets within a year. Remember, all we need is a DVI 720p input and that will allow connection to CURRENT DVD players/HTPC's and will also be compatible with any future HDTV set-top boxes (and likely HD-DVD).

We may not have broadcast HDTV yet but the key to getting it is DVI/720p equipped set and the technology is a fairly minor leap above current sets.
Paul

Your reasoning behind this thinking paul...

Boris Blank · 13-09-2003, 10:34 AM

Nathan,
I think you are looking at either a DLP HD2 projector or a decent 7"/8" CRT projector. After the Tosh, you simply won't be satisfied with anything less. LCD simply won't do it for you unless you look at a high-end model and if you are doing that you might as well go DLP HD2.

You are used to a very good display and will not be happy with a lesser display, believe me.

Paul

Boris Blank · 13-09-2003, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dimmy
Your reasoning behind this thinking paul...

Which part ?

Its the next logical step. Let me throw it back at ya - why do you think we won't see them in that time frame?
Paul

Dimmy · 13-09-2003, 10:39 AM

Because - quite simply - we don't have HDTV and there aren't DVD Players with 720p Component Outputs.

I doubt Toshiba are going to bring out a radical new RPTV product to cater for the HTPC market.

13-09-2003, 10:45 AM

What would be cool if current CRT RP's had this- a internal laser per CRT emits a grid onto the RP screen, automatically adjusting electrical focus, Schempluge, optical focus & geometry in relevance with the mirror & each CRT angle, this is then computated into each CRT and stored.

Then a optical sensor automatically adjusts grey level and colour decoder balance.

Probably impratical but would be pretty nice to have a self-calibrating CRT RP.

Dimmy · 13-09-2003, 10:48 AM

haha - cost a fair bit too

Boris Blank · 13-09-2003, 10:50 AM

Dimmy,
Yes but we don't NEED HDTV to get hi-def pictures. The first step is DVI and there are current DVD players that do output 720p over DVI. You can also use an HTPC to output 720p. 720p IS Hi-Def. (However, we won't get true Hi-Def until HDTV / HD-DVD arrives).

There are DVD players that output 720p component (although its frowned upon!) - have a look here http://www.keohi.com/keohihdtv/video...ackground.html . Its also available in the UK now.

DVI has now superceded component and you will increasingly see it on DVD players.

The bonus is that a DVI equipped set will take HDTV broadcasts when they arrive.

I admit its a chicken and egg situation but if a DVI equipped Tosh came out tomorrow, you could have it running 720p within seconds.

I really think Tosh missed the boat here and suspect it may be some other manufacturer that brings DVI RPTV to the market first although Tosh will release one sooner or later.
Paul

Boris Blank · 13-09-2003, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by nathan_silly

Probably impratical but would be pretty nice to have a self-calibrating CRT RP.

Well, pre-calibrated DLP projectors are available now. The Immersive Virtuoso is one but costs a pocket busting £8000. My favourite, the BenQ 8700 is exceptionaly accurate out of the box at a more reasonable £4700.

Technology is catching up fast!

Paul

Dimmy · 13-09-2003, 10:57 AM

Who's the smart money on?

Sony possibly?

13-09-2003, 11:04 AM

Toshiba are going to release a LCos RPTVs soon and will prob be very expensive. Maybe they will skip DVi on (old) CRT RPs and concentrate on making their new Lcos ones hi-def.

Boris Blank · 13-09-2003, 11:09 AM

Ahhh, the $64,000,000 question!

Sony would have to be a good bet as they can be quite innovative at times.

My real hope/dream is Toshiba in their next set after the this one but that might be more than a year away (NTSC only component - what were they thinking of!??) so thats why I reckon someone else may get the jump on them.

Wouldn't be surprised if we saw something from Thomson!?

Pure speculation though but things are moving very fast technology wise and adding a DVI input (providing the crt tubes are up to it ) would be a fairly cheap addition at the factory.

I'll buy you a pint if I'm wrong

Paul

Boris Blank · 13-09-2003, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bodyfodder
Toshiba are going to release a LCos RPTVs soon and will prob be very expensive. Maybe they will skip DVi on (old) CRT RPs and concentrate on making their new Lcos ones hi-def.

Don't, you're giving me nightmares!

I read a review of a Phillips 44" Lcos set and the grayscale was all over the place such that they couldn't get it anywhere near D65, great set crap picture - exactly what we don't need. Still, we shouldn't judge Lcos based on one set/review. Expensive though.
Paul

13-09-2003, 11:15 AM

Thompson are also releasing a DLP RPTV very soon and looks pretty decent!

That toshiba Lcos one on the american site looks the dogs danglies.................be a long time before we get that quality.

Boris Blank · 13-09-2003, 11:20 AM

Now you are giving me wet dreams - stop it!

Paul

13-09-2003, 11:26 AM

As you said before Sony can be innovative but then the only product they have on the UK market with component inputs is their plasma range! Not even the LCD RPs have prog scan so i doubt they will add component inputs to CRT based RPTVs.

A new range of LCD tvs from Sony are about to be released and they only have scart terminals.

12-09-2003, 8:06 PM	#2
nathan_silly Guest Posts: n/a	Shame. Although I guess if your collection consists of region 1 DVD's I guess it doesn't matter. Unless we need PAL Progressive for other sources. Does terrestrial or Freeview TV need de-interlacing? I'm sure I saw 625P in the user manual though!
	Quote

13-09-2003, 8:54 AM	#7
nathan_silly Guest Posts: n/a	Do you think it's worth selling my 42PW23P and buying the 42xx46B model? I'm sitting quite close to the set- about 2M. Scan lines aren't too bad, mainly jaggies that annoy me (occasionally), mainly shows up on Futurama slows pans/slow zooming in scenes. Judder isn't too bad either, although I guess that and the removal of scan lines if I get progressive will overall help. Oh I'll also order the Tosh 900E at the same time. Is the de-interlacer in it any good? My collection consists of purely Region 1 DVD's. Or do you think I should wait until HDTV's come out with DVI inputs?
	Quote

13-09-2003, 9:46 AM	#9
nathan_silly Guest Posts: n/a	Yeah thought so. Just like another opinion whether it's worth it. It's just so annoying when you see the US RP's. DVI, two sets of component, colour correction, HTDV, coffee maker etc. It's a shame CRT FP are so large; I would love one but have no space. I would not consider LCD projection due to mainly heat soak problems. Although I guess if you only have it only a few hours a week it should be OK? I take it LCD PJ's are HDTV spec? PAL & NTSC Progressive? It'll certainly free up floorspace. Allowing me to have the Storm and a SVS in the space where the RP is. They are tempting.
	Quote

13-09-2003, 10:28 AM	#13
nathan_silly Guest Posts: n/a	I guess some interlaced effects bother more than others... In order of the things that annoy me most (on any display) 1) Damaged LCD panels (heat soak) 2) PAL 50hz flicker on R2 DVD's on my set. 3) Mpeg artifacts- blocking, Plasma gradients 4) Terrible CRT geometry 5) Large dead/lit pixels 6) Poor blacks (LCD) 7) Jaggies 8) Scan lines 9) Convergence/focus. 10) NTSC judder. 11) Minor CRT geometry. I don't watch TV anymore so I guess a LCD PJ is a viable alternative. Watch 1 film a day, and maybe a couple of animated DVD's (Simpsons, Futurama etc)
	Quote

13-09-2003, 10:45 AM	#20
nathan_silly Guest Posts: n/a	What would be cool if current CRT RP's had this- a internal laser per CRT emits a grid onto the RP screen, automatically adjusting electrical focus, Schempluge, optical focus & geometry in relevance with the mirror & each CRT angle, this is then computated into each CRT and stored. Then a optical sensor automatically adjusts grey level and colour decoder balance. Probably impratical but would be pretty nice to have a self-calibrating CRT RP.
	Quote

13-09-2003, 11:04 AM	#25
bodyfodder Guest Posts: n/a	Toshiba are going to release a LCos RPTVs soon and will prob be very expensive. Maybe they will skip DVi on (old) CRT RPs and concentrate on making their new Lcos ones hi-def.
	Quote

13-09-2003, 11:15 AM	#28
bodyfodder Guest Posts: n/a	Thompson are also releasing a DLP RPTV very soon and looks pretty decent! That toshiba Lcos one on the american site looks the dogs danglies.................be a long time before we get that quality.
	Quote

13-09-2003, 11:26 AM	#30
bodyfodder Guest Posts: n/a	As you said before Sony can be innovative but then the only product they have on the UK market with component inputs is their plasma range! Not even the LCD RPs have prog scan so i doubt they will add component inputs to CRT based RPTVs. A new range of LCD tvs from Sony are about to be released and they only have scart terminals.
	Quote