I am confused? Not difficult the missus rekons.

However, I would really like some light shedding, and a few arguments solved.

I have an MXE1 I know it isnt hi-def ready or is it?

What I understand, and I really appreciate help here.

I have a DVD player conected via, component, thats the yr,cr,pb, (or somit close) so coponent to component,
Is this classed as hi-def? (or is there more to it)

I have a freeview box connected via rgb over scart into a box which converts it to plasma rgb (i think its green on sync) and connects in via 15 pin rgb cable into the monitor input of the plasma
I am gessing this isnt hi-def it just the best way of doing it ( any better suggestions greatly accepted)

Now I also have a white DVI connector, at the moment that is connected to my docking station for my laptop as it is not being used and it was there.
is this hi-def if my laptop sends out 1024X768 native to the plasma.

lastly can anbody answer this.
is hi-def, a connector or a method of transport.
is the hdmi connector into the plasma, better than dvi, for picture only.
as I understand it, hdmi just supports encryption over hi-def.

I have no interest in sky, so am i losing out with the mxe1 bearing in mind i would like to be hi-def with the dvds I watch.

second to last whats the differance between hi-def dvd films and the ordinary,
I thought it was just means of sending signals?

Am I dull, or is there more to all this than meets the eye.

[loz]

perhaps start by reading this http://www.eicta.org/files/PressRelease1-115438A.pdf

This is the official specs for products that carry the "HD Ready" logo

Okay I read that thanks.

So I figure.
Hi-def is basically a standard, 720 or 1080

but it look like, totally unprotected is on only available through component.

and dvi and hdmi, must support copy protection hdcp.

but the problem is that while it may be possible to buy a dvd player that has component out (any ideas) playing hi-def dvd's may be more of a problem as they have protection built in, and so would need to go out through a dvi or hdmi connector that supports hdcp. unless somebody finds a work around?

Have I got the grasp of this?

[loz]

you cannot buy HD DVD players yet.

HD DVD players will all implement HDMI. HD DVDs will only play on HD DVD players. They will not play on the DVD player you have today.

Don't confuse today's DVD players that can upscale a Standard Definition DVD to an HD display, with a genuine HD DVD player. The current DVD players do nothing that the display does itself - i.e. resize the signal to the resolution of the display. They do not make it true HD, they just interpolate the picture to the resolution of the display.

[Joe Fernand]

Hello GrahamT

Its not too difficult to get confused - lots of folk with vested interests in all of this 'HD' malarkey make it difficult for everyone to cotton on to the basic facts.

Video signal standards are defined by various 'Governing bodies' .

Some Video Standards are defined as Standard Definition (SD), some are defined as Extended Definition (ED) and some are defined as High Definition (HD).

Up until recently the vast majority of Consumer Video mediums you can purchase in a Pre-recorded package or can 'Receive' via a TV Tuner, Satellite Receiver or Cable Box have been Standard Definition or Extended Definition.

More recently High Definition Broadcast and Pre-recorded mediums have started to make an appearance - a whole heap of cash is being spent on two new High Definition capable Pre Recorded formats (HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc) which are due to make an appearance later this year.

DVD Video discs are encoded with a Standard Definition (SD) video signal (720x480 for NTSC and 720x576 for PAL) - all DVD players are decoding and playing back a Standard Definition video signal.

Some of the latest DVD players include video processing technology that up-converts the SD video signal to an ED or HD Format signal - this is not the same as starting out with an HD source format.

The optical DVD disc your Movies are currently delivered on is perfectly capable of delivering a High Definition video signal - the big problem being the format of the Disc and the laser that reads the disc is such that you cant get a whole Movie on a single disc and not many folk are up for swapping discs two or three times during a Movie.

The new optical disc formats (HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc) whilst similar in appearance to a conventional DVD Disc are very different and require a different player to take advantage of there superior storage abilities.

HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc can store a whole Movie encoded in an HD format on a single disc though its also worth noting that HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc are incompatible technologies fighting for supremacy as the number one Next Generation Optical Disc.

High Definition video signals can be carried over Analogue and Digital video connections - Hollywood prefers the Digital option as it can add anti piracy mechanism's to the Digital signal; that's where HDCP and other security systems come in to play.

No matter the resolution of your Display Device the manufacturer of the Display will have made the video input board of the Display compatible with an array of Video signals - some will be limited to SD and ED; some will add HD compatibility and some Displays will also be compatible with PC Video standards such as VGA, SVGA, XGA etc.

Much confusion in the market surrounds the very many Displays that on the surface have more than enough resolution to display all manner of SD, ED and HD format video signals but fail to deliver the goods when you hook up an HD capable source and got no image on screen.

The problem being that your HD capable source may only be capable of Outpputing an HD signal in a certain HD format and your HD capable Display may equally only be able to decode certain HD signal formats and if your unlucky the format of the Source is not one the Display recognises and even if it recognises it HDCP encryption may get in the way!

The HD Ready 'standard' is a quality mark invented for the European market that indicates that if you purchase a Display that is marked as HD Ready you will be compatible with the main stream HD video signals/sources the various broadcasters and pre recorded Movie publishers have agreed to deliver in Europe.

HDMI is a Multi-media (sound and video) connectivity standard and is an 'extension' of the Video only DVI standard - both can deliver SD, ED, HD and PC format video signals.

HDMI always includes HDCP encryption when playing back copy protected source material.

DVI doesn't have to included HDCP and this is the first problem for you and your MXE1 Display - its DVI Input is capable of accepting a wide range of SD, ED, HD and PC format video signals but none of them can be HDCP encrypted!!!

If you want to view HD content on your MXE1 you have a few options (without reverting to kit that can break HDCP encryption) - you can Input Analogue 'Component' HD signals on the three BNC connectors marked YPbPr, Analogue RGB HD signals on the Five BNC connectors marked RGBHV, Analogue RGB HD signals on the HD15(VGA) connectors or Digitally on the DVI connector as long as the source is not HDCP encrypted.

If your NOT interested in 'Broadcast' HD from the likes of SKY then I guess you are interetsed in pre packaged or pre recorded HD by some other means.

Seeing as both HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc will include HDCP and more than likely Only offer HD Output on HDMI connectors then you may wish to investigate another option which is streaming HD from the Internet via your home computer network and an HD capable Networked Media Player.

Choose carefully and your Networked Media Player will even double up as a DVD player with up-conversion to an HD format for your SD DVD Video discs and be capable of Outputting Analogue YPbPr (on 3RCA) or Digital RGB via DVI (with NO HDCP) - which all sounds ideal for MXE1 owners

Best regards

Joe

[Welwynnick]

That'll be a candidate for sticky of the year, then!

Nick

[Piers]

Agreed - best explanation of a potentially very confusing subject that I have seen in years. Nice one Joe.

[TheCrow]

Originally Posted by Joe Fernand

DVI doesn't have to included HDCP and this is the first problem for you and your MXE1 Display - its DVI Input is capable of accepting a wide range of SD, ED, HD and PC format video signals but none of them can be HDCP encrypted!!!

I beleive this is inaccurate as the MXE1 will only accept PC formats via it's DVI input and not any Video resolutions like 480i, 576i, 720p or 1080i.

Therefore to use the DVI input you not only have to deal with the HDCP issue but you also need a scaler to convert SD, ED or HD to the panels native resolution 1024x768 (43") or 1280x768 (50").

Another option for MXE1 owners is to replace the 5003 plug-in video board with an alternative board that includes HDMI inputs. I have a Key Digital HD Xplorer card with 4 HDMI sockets in my MXE1 which solves all my encrypted digital video problems but this has issues with analogue inputs

Thank you Joe, for a fantastic explanation,

Touching on a few things,
what network media player would anybody suggest.
is not possible to play hdcp encoded HD to a unit that accepts it and then resend it out to non hdcp device, (or does the hdcp stay encrypted in the signal.)

(for example would there be say an ATI video card all in wonder or something like, that had hdcp compliant input, and could output through its dvi connector) now there's wishful thinking!

On the point about the mxe1 only accepting video signals I can get 625i thats 15.6H and 50V from my freeview box inputed into the pc/rgb connector and am supposing that it will be the same for the dvi

However is it tru that I can get full support for hdcp using one of these Xplorer cards, please tell me more

[TheCrow]

Originally Posted by GrahamT

However is it tru that I can get full support for hdcp using one of these Xplorer cards, please tell me more

I believe there are three companies making plug-in cards for the MXE1 that give you HDCP HDMI inputs.

Key Digital - HD Xplorer

Aurora Multimedia - TVP-500F

Aviosys - DTV 6200

The Aviosys card is the one "endorsed" by Pioneer but is currently not available and I know little else about it.

The Aurora card is available but I have not seen anyone review it.

The Key Digital card is the one I have but it is only available in the US so I had to import it from there. The current price appears to be $799 so by the time you've shipped it and paid VAT it will be around £600 to £650, which is not cheap.

It also still has issues that remain to be addressed by firmware updates. The most notable is that it will not accept 50Hz signals via its RGB input. (Despite the claims in its spec's). Additionally I would say the quality of its analogue inputs is not as good as the 5003 board.

Once the card is installed you still have access to the Pioneer VGA and DVI inputs so you can still use the VGA for RGB video from your Freeview box. (The card replaces the 5003 so you lose all the other inputs on this card)

Knowing what I do about this card I am still glad I bought it as it gives me the 4 HDMI inputs for my MXE1.

It will be interesting to see what the Aviosys card is like if/when it is released.

You also now have the choice of upgrading to a MXE11 that has HDCP but that is even more expensive.

[Joe Fernand]

Hello all

TheCrow - I don't have my notes to hand but pretty sure there are some 'un-documented' Video format signals you can get the MXE1 to work with via DVI.

I didn't include the Third Party plug in boards as they are simply way too costly and not reliable/compatible enough for the majority of folk to contemplate using in a Home Theatre/Entertainment set-up.

We all waited for nearly three years on the Aurora boards and were very disappointed with what arrived and the cost - Key Digital likewise is too expensive and too limited at 50Hz for most folk in Euro land and past experience has not been great re Firmware updates and 50Hz fixes.

Aviosys and its Products are really aimed at the Corporate market and tend to stay 'below the line' and rarely make an appearance in Consumer land.

GrahamT - HDCP is primarily a closed loop system; you cant easily break out of it to make copies or playback on 'legacy' non HDCP equipment.

The Hardware manufacturers have the option of leaving a back door for Legacy connectivity - though usually with a restricted down rezzed output not the pristine HD or Progressive SD signal you receive via HDMI or DVI with HDCP.

The key for the back door is firmly with the Copyright owners of the programme material - they can open or close the back door at will using 'flags' on a Disc on in a Broadcast stream.

HDCP is coming to a PC near you soon enough - anyone hoping to add HD DVD or Blu-ray Disc playback to their PC need to start planning for HDCP and all that entails.

Best regards

Joe

[philipb]

Oh dear - Joe goes to all that trouble to explain it all to us, and then nobody responds to the request for a suggestion for a suitable network media player. And Joe can't because of forum rules.

Graham - you might like to consider the Snazzio available at very reasonable prices from umm, The Media Factory I think

Joe - are you sure about the DVI on the MXE1 accepting HD resolutions? I thought it was PC only. When I tried 720p and 1080i from my scaler into the DVI I got "out of range". Fine over analogue connections, but not digital I thought.

[Joe Fernand]

Hello philipb

I may be mistaken on the MXE1 - I'll convene with the Video Processor Sages as it was a while ago and maybe we did stray further than I remember from a 'video' signal and got into PC territory!!!

Best regards

Joe

PS SnaZio SZ1350 - Home Cinema Choice 'Best Buy' for March 06

[philipb]

Joe

Had a play when I got home - definitely no 720p or 1080i over DVI.

You threatened a while ago to post some info on the latest Pio screens. Any joy?

[TheCrow]

Originally Posted by Joe Fernand

Key Digital likewise is too expensive and too limited at 50Hz for most folk in Euro land and past experience has not been great re Firmware updates and 50Hz fixes.

Hi Joe, your comments lead me to contact Key Digital again regarding updated Firmware. I must say my personal experience with them has always been very good. They currently have a beta of V1.25 which they were kind enough to let me have a copy of to test. This update includes the fix for RGBHV @ 50Hz and native res' via HDMI @ 50 and 60Hz. I can confirm that both these do work and the native res' via HDMI is a surprise as it is clearly better than the Pioneer DVI input, cleaner with richer colours.

[Joe Fernand]

Hello all

TheCrow - good news then on the HD Xplorer card. Its been a while coming but now sounds like a viable option; though not currently available through a UK Distribution/Reseller network.

philipb - Pioneer GB demonstrated their 1920x1080P 50" Panel to a group of Broadcast/Production industry journalists last week in the UK. I believe it was still a pre production unit and the hint I got was June at the very earliest before Production Samples would be seen.

Best regards

Joe

[Robert Hill]

I thought that I had a handle on this hd situation, but now I don't think so. I have a Pioneer 434 hdmi display, Pioneer 668 dvd, sky+ box, advent media centre. The dvd connects via hdmi, no upscaling on this model so the resolution on the screen is 576 and pic quality is very good. The media centre is fed via a dvi/hdmi lead to the pio mediabox (which by the by is also fed by rgb scart from the sky box) which means that the dvd hdmi lead is replaced by the dvi/hdmi lead. From the media centre resolution is 750 and i have some hi def downloads from the internet which are superb. But, why then if this resolution is so much higher than the dvd, is the quality of dvds played via the media centre so much poorer than that of the standalone pio dvd player? Is this something to do with HDCP? If the graphics card was questionable then the hi def stuff would be affected!
I was also contemplating the new Yamaha 2600 receiver which has an inbuilt video scaler, so as another aside, I wonder whether this would obviate upgrading the 668 dvd which does not upscale.
Tks in advance.

[Joe Fernand]

Hello Robert Hill

Confusion reigns - and don't the hardware manufacturers just love it!!!

Your R04 Media Box accepts a wide range of Analogue and Digital video sources in all manner of formats - some Standard Definition (SD), some High Definition (HD) some Interlaced (i) and some Progressive (P).

Your Screen has 1024x768 Pixels and the Pioneer R04 Media Box re-maps every source signal you plug into the Media Box to the 1024x768 pixels and converts all Interlaced Source signals to Progressive on the way through the Media Box.

No matter what resolution the Source Signal the Media Box has to fill the 1024x768 pixels - so anything SD has to be 'up-converted' (the Media Box has to make up info that's not actually in the source signal) and anything HD the Media Box has to throw away some info (which is a much easier job).

Where you start out with an HD sources signal (from an HD source not an SD source pre sampled to HD resolutions) your always likely to see a very decent image on screen - where you start with an SD source things can get pretty ropey at times.

Its perfectly feasible that your PC is not the best DVD Video player on the market - then again it may simply be a configuration issue that's causing the low quality DVD playback you describe.

Keep in mind your asking the PC to 'up-convert' the SD info that's encoded on the DVD Video disc to an HD format - the PC is having to make up info that's not on the disc and it may not be very good at up-conversion; even if its good at playing back HD files.

Keep in mind too that due to the design of the Pioneer Media Box its pretty much impossible to Input a 1024x768 'Video' signal into the Media Box so where you start with an SD source (SKY, Freeview, VCR, DVD) and your Source player has some form of on-board up-conversion (PC, DVD, AV Receiver) to 720P or 1080i the Media Box is still going to have to re-process the up-converted signal to 1024x768; that's a lot of messing about with the Source signal..

HDCP is an encryption system and has nothing whatsoever to do with Image quality.

I wouldn't purchase an AV Receiver expecting its 'Video Processing' to make a big difference to my system.

If you want to improve DVD playback try out an Arcam DV79 player - no up-conversion just very decent Progressive play out of R1 and R2 DVD Video discs on its 'Component' video outputs (Note - is the R04 compatible with both 480P and 576P or is it 480P and 576i).

Best regards

Joe

[richto]

Originally Posted by TheCrow

I beleive this is inaccurate as the MXE1 will only accept PC formats via it's DVI input and not any Video resolutions like 480i, 576i, 720p or 1080i.

Therefore to use the DVI input you not only have to deal with the HDCP issue but you also need a scaler to convert SD, ED or HD to the panels native resolution 1024x768 (43") or 1280x768 (50").

I only use the DVI input on my MXE1 and it works for all standard sources - including my DVD player. I use a JS tech RGB to DVI convertor.

[TheCrow]

Originally Posted by richto

I only use the DVI input on my MXE1 and it works for all standard sources - including my DVD player. I use a JS tech RGB to DVI convertor.

Are you sure you're not confusing the DVI input with the VGA input?

[philipb]

Thecrow

I think he is confusing them as you say. The DVI is definitely PC resolutions only.

do you mind saying how much you paid for the KeyDigital card and who you ordered it from? Soon I have to think about moving to HiDef capable gear. I can get my scaler modded to accept HDCP HDMI inputs and outputs, but its hardly worth doing that with my MXE1 as it stands. Its either a new screen or a mod to the MXE1. I must say I am a fan of the Pios and would like to keep it if it can be future proofed.

Given that i don't need the scaling capability on the card would the Aurora be a more cost effective option (PAL performance permitting)?

Grateful for any advice.

[TheCrow]

Originally Posted by philipb

do you mind saying how much you paid for the KeyDigital card and who you ordered it from?

Please see post #10 of this thread for that info.

I do note though that the price has now gone up from $799 to $1124

[Joe Fernand]

Hello The Crow

The price you paid was artificially low - it was an 'introductory' offer in the US only and its never been available to UK Trade customers at that price.

Combine the high UK 'Trade' price with the requirement to purchase a fair few units to become a Dealer and you'll understand why it doesn't have too many resellers/supporters in the UK.

Best regards

Joe