HDCP to be enforced immediately?

stevekale · 08-02-2006, 10:21 AM

I had an interesting email conversation with Tech Support at Theta Digital Corporation in the US. These guys make the world's leading AV processor, the Casablanca. I was asking about their plans to upgrade the Casablanca for HDCP hand shaking etc to accommodate HDTV/HD-DVD/Bluray with HDCP. I've copied his response below. Do people know if HDCP is going to be enforced by Sky et al for HDTV content from the beginning?

"Steve,

BluRay/Hdv are not real yet. We want to see 2000 titles in existence to take either format seriously. Remember in 2000 when DTS ES and Dolby Digital EX were just released and we had to have a new processor to play these new formats. In the States there are less than 200 titles released. That the HD-DVD camp is almost willing to commit to 200 titles this year, was the big news from the CES show. Do you think BluRay will make more than 200 titles this year?

I think HDMI and HDCP will be problematic with many different brands not communicating with one another. We will seek out a firm which has a very strong working knowledge of HDMI and HDCP to work with in developing any new product which has HDMI and HDCP requirements. So we are doing exploring of our options with how we come up with HDMI/HDCP we are comfortable with.

Sincerely,

John Baloff"

Evil Engineer · 08-02-2006, 12:04 PM

Regardless of the situation with Sky-HD and Bluray/HD-DVD it's already an issue.

HDCP is here NOW. If you want a digital picture from a DVD player it will apply HDCP to the signal, even at 480i/p & 576i/p.

It sounds like they are burying their heads in the sand.

stevekale · 08-02-2006, 12:17 PM

HDCP is sort of here now - sort of sort of. Nothing yet requires it. That is, there is nothing on the market today that won't generate a picture because it didn't get an HDCP handshake. My understanding is that, for the most part, HDCP is not working reliably across platforms in trials. I agree with Theta that HD-DVD and Bluray are not for all practical purposes up and running yet (and they will be even longer coming here - I remember going into video stores when I moved here in 98 and people hadn't even heard of DVD then when it'd been out in the US for sometime).

My concern, though, is that Sky will attempt to enforce HDCP (despite its current problems) and then there will be an issue.

Starburst · 08-02-2006, 12:26 PM

SKY have already gone on record in saying they will allow their own channels to be viewed at native HD resolution via the component output on the SKY+ HD. As I understand it those early users of the TW DVR also say that HD content is accessible via it's component output.
However this may only be for the first generation of SKY+ HD (depends exactly what was negotiated with the mainly US content suppliers) and it's still a guess if even on the first SKY+ HD SKY if HD over component would be a permenant thing.

SKY did say that third party broadcasters would have the option to specify if the HD content would be allowed at native resolution only via HDMI (with all that implies in regards to HDCP) with only a downconverted output on component.

TheCrow · 08-02-2006, 4:41 PM

I may be missing something here

but HDCP is an integral part of HDMI and has been with us since it was introduced over a year ago.

My DVD player (Pioneer 868) has HDMI and will not connect to any display that doesn't have HDCP.

In fact I had to buy a HDCP compliant expansion card to enable my plasma to work with this DVD player over HDMI.

All HDMI sources require HDCP to enable connection.

Tarbat · 08-02-2006, 4:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheCrow

I may be missing something here

but HDCP is an integral part of HDMI and has been with us since it was introduced over a year ago.

My DVD player (Pioneer 868) has HDMI and will not connect to any display that doesn't have HDCP.

So, are you saying there are HDMI connections without HDCP? If so, that contradicts your statement that HDCP is an integral part of HDMI. I read that HDCP was an optional feature on an HDMI interface, but any manufacturer that doesn't include it would be mad.

TheCrow · 08-02-2006, 5:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cjgpers

So, are you saying there are HDMI connections without HDCP? If so, that contradicts your statement that HDCP is an integral part of HDMI. I read that HDCP was an optional feature on an HDMI interface, but any manufacturer that doesn't include it would be mad.

No that is not what I was saying.

HDMI is similar to DVI and you can connect HDMI players to DVI and vice versa but a HDMI source will only connect to a DVI display that has HDCP.

I believe all HDMI connections have HDCP but not all DVI connections.

BadAss · 08-02-2006, 5:23 PM

Having HDCP on the Pioneer 868 sounds crazy as its not even a HD player.

Its my understanding Blue-Ray and HD-DVD need two HDMI outputs. One which feeds a HDCP picture to a monitor, the other feeds uncompressed Dolby Digital and DTS to an audio reciever.

Tarbat · 08-02-2006, 5:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheCrow

I believe all HDMI connections have HDCP but not all DVI connections.

But they don't have to, if the manufacturer doesn't want to pay Intel the $15000 per annum plus the per unit fee. The HDMI organisation have always stated that HDCP is optional - see http://www.hdmi.org/consumer/faq.asp

TheCrow · 08-02-2006, 5:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cjgpers

But they don't have to, if the manufacturer doesn't want to pay Intel the $15000 per annum plus the per unit fee. The HDMI organisation have always stated that HDCP is optional - see http://www.hdmi.org/consumer/faq.asp

If you already know this why are you asking me "So, are you saying there are HDMI connections without HDCP?"

Welwynnick · 08-02-2006, 6:04 PM

This is easy to clarify.

The HDMI specification itself states that HDMI can support HDCP, but it doesn't have to. It is optional and available, just as it is with DVI.

Having said that, I don't know of any HDMI devices that do not use HDCP, but maybe there is the odd Chinese exception lying about somewhere.

HDMI actualy reduce their license fee for small volume manufacturers, and reduce the per unit fee from 5 to 4 cents if HDCP is implemented. So no great obstacles, then.

I do think any audio or video processor manufacturer should have grasped the nettle with HDCP by now, though. It's here to stay, and they will miss out big time before they can recruit a design engineer.

Nick

stevekale · 08-02-2006, 7:34 PM

Yes you guys need to remember that HDCP and HDMI are completely separate things. Also DVI is just as capable a connection for video only as HDMI which carries both video and audio. Both connection specs accommodate HDCP. It may not be ideal in high end systems to use HDMI out of the disk transport.

It is highly indicative of the issues being posed to the industry by the implementation of HDCP and the issues of getting it to work across a very broad range of platforms that a company like Theta are waiting for the dust to settle. These guys do not make cheap gear. Go price a new Casablanca III with superior DACs at KJ West One. It makes a new 50in plasma seem like pocket change.

I think people are greatly underestimating the settling-in issues associated with the move to HD. HDCP is just one. 50 vs 60 Hz is another. I guess we will all have to wait and see. Now's not the time to be forking huge chunks of cash...

Evil Engineer · 08-02-2006, 7:58 PM

It is my understanding that the DVD Forum has mandated that ALL digital picture outputs MUST incorporate HDCP into the signal.

It's also my understanding that they won't allow any upscaled picture to be output via component (SD progressive only, folks).

So if you have a DVD player from a respectable manufacturer plugged into your display using either HDMI or DVI and you've got a picture then congratulations are in order. You have managed to find at least two HDCP devices prepared to talk to each other!

Are HDCP incompatability issues that common? I don't think so. If they were we'd be swamped with "My DVD player won't talk to my Plasma" threads.

ianh64 · 08-02-2006, 8:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevekale

HDCP is sort of here now - sort of sort of. Nothing yet requires it. That is, there is nothing on the market today that won't generate a picture because it didn't get an HDCP handshake.

HDCP has been here for over two years now. An upscaling DVD player licensed by the DVD forum requires HDCP for copy protected discs - either over DVI or HDMI. If you don't have a display supporting HDCP, you are not going to see an upscaled picture from a disc with the copy protect flag set. Some players force HDCP on you even for non CP discs. HD-DVD/blu-ray/Sky HD etc isn't going to change that.

stevekale · 08-02-2006, 8:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evil Engineer

Are HDCP incompatability issues that common? I don't think so. If they were we'd be swamped with "My DVD player won't talk to my Plasma" threads.

Who knows... Just because two HDCP enabled devices are connected and work may not mean they will work with HDCP-enabled content. I'm not sure. Put it this way, it it were easy I would doubt a company like Theta would see any issues implementing it. But they clearly do.

stevekale · 08-02-2006, 8:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ianh64

HDCP has been here for over two years now. An upscaling DVD player licensed by the DVD forum requires HDCP for copy protected discs - either over DVI or HDMI. If you don't have a display supporting HDCP, you are not going to see an upscaled picture from a disc with the copy protect flag set. Some players force HDCP on you even for non CP discs. HD-DVD/blu-ray/Sky HD etc isn't going to change that.

Yes there is no doubt that it will be an issue with HD-DVD/BluRay but don't hold your breath for a significant catalogue from either one of those. The question at hand is whether technologies that will be here sooner, eg Sky HDTV, will require HDCP immediately. Seems there is a possibility that it will not be enforced immediately. The HDCP spec has been revised before and will quite likely be revised again.

Evil Engineer · 08-02-2006, 8:40 PM

I still think it's a cop out excuse from Theta to cover the fact they've got any HDMI compatable gear on the market.

Now, if the real reason was "we're waiting for HDMI v1.3 so we can release kick ass product with Dolby TruHD and DTS-HD decoding" then that would be something else entirely.

stevekale · 08-02-2006, 9:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evil Engineer

I still think it's a cop out excuse from Theta to cover the fact they've got any HDMI compatable gear on the market.

Now, if the real reason was "we're waiting for HDMI v1.3 so we can release kick ass product with Dolby TruHD and DTS-HD decoding" then that would be something else entirely.

Perhaps. But HDMI is not the issue. HDCP is.

Tarbat · 08-02-2006, 9:34 PM

For an indication of the some of the problems with HDCP, see this paper I got from a symposium last year - http://gray.homeip.net/images/plugfest.pdf

Joe Fernand · 09-02-2006, 1:50 AM

Hello all

Are we in a time warp here? Did someone really say there are no devices on the market that wont give you an image because of HDCP???

There must by now be millions of HDMI equipped DVD players on the market and every single one of them will stop dead in its tracks if you attach the HDMI Output to a Display that has a non HDCP compliant DVI Input the moment you insert a Macrovision protected Disc in the DVD player.

HDCP is in the main not an 'always on' feature of HDMI equipped Source devices - HDCP is triggered when you play back a DVD disc that is flagged for Macrovision.

If you have an HDMI equipped Source and a non HDCP DVI equipped Display you can play any DVD disc you like as long as its not flagged for Macrovision.

For broadcasters HDCP can be switched on or off using Flags in the Broadcast stream.

How any company can say they are waiting on the dust to settle on HDCP seems bizarre - we're already delivering second generation DVI with HDCP and HDMI Switching, Distribution, Matrix and Video processing solutions; possibly someone needs to send Theta an Invite to the next CES and a list of the booths for DVDO, Lumagen, Gefen, Zektor, PMS, Faroudja, Silicon Optix etc every one of these manufacturers have numerous products that are HD capable and fully HDCP compliant.

HDCP can have issues but I doubt that will ever change unless you insist every system only includes DVI and HDMI Transmitter/Receiver chips from a certain release date or generation forward - and even then your bound to still have the odd problem.

Best regard

Joe

stevekale · 09-02-2006, 10:23 AM

But if course you can have HDMI or DVI without HDCP.

Joe Fernand · 09-02-2006, 1:30 PM

Hello Steve

HDMI always includes HDCP when you play back a Copy Protected disc - playing back non Copy Protected Discs is a different matter; in theory HDCP should not be applied though in practice some DVD Player manufacturers seem to whack HDCP on for every Disc.

DVI without HDCP is perfectly feasible - though for a lot of Source devices that is also an indicator that the Device will output a 'PC' format signal not a 'Video' format signal so you may have other issues to deal with on top of HDCP.

A Display, Switcher or Video Processor equipped with HDMI or DVI with HDCP compliant Input's will deal with HDCP and Non HDCP signals - as long as the format of the signal is compatible with the Display, Switcher or Video Processor.

A Display, Switcher or Video Processor equipped with Non HDCP compliant DVI Input's will only deal with Non HDCP Input signals.

Best regards

Joe

stevekale · 09-02-2006, 6:46 PM

From subsequent conversations with them, it's clear that they are waiting for HDMI v1.3 (at least) which they regard as "close to being released".

Evil Engineer · 09-02-2006, 7:20 PM

They aren't the only ones!

I'm refusing to upgrade my trusty old Pioneer VSA-E07 (six years old and counting) until HDMI switching amps are available that can take v1.3 and can decode Dolby True-HD and DTS-HD.

I'm hoping I've only got a year to wait before Denon or Pioneer do the job.

stevekale · 09-02-2006, 7:30 PM

Makes a lot of sense. I would say also that anyone purchasing a first generation HD-DVD/BlyRay player should be prepared to throw it away within 12-18months. (Remember the first CD players? OK harsh comp.) I also think a lot of mistakes will have been made in the last 6 months, and the next 6, re "HDTV" displays. There's a lot of dust to settle here...

ianh64 · 10-02-2006, 7:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevekale

From subsequent conversations with them, it's clear that they are waiting for HDMI v1.3 (at least) which they regard as "close to being released".

I have heard this guestimate from a reliable source - "I think that the sample silicon for HDMI 1.3 is going to ship around the CEDIA timeframe this year". CEDIA expo is mid September.